Modern trends in FPS I do not care for

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bombadilillo

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Veldt Falsetto said:
bombadilillo said:
Veldt Falsetto said:
Go play the Metroid Prime Trilogy :) you will see.
See what? I've played them all and loved them. 2 pissed me off when it told me to go find keys, but other then that I haven't a bad thing to say about them.
Mostly that there is still somewhat hope for the FPS genre I'm mostly just saying that I agree with you completely and that there are other games out there with the same strong points as Half-Life

...just not many unfortunately
I see what your saying now, and Im not trying to argue Half-life was the last good fps game, its just what got me thinking on this subject and what I personally liked about it over most modern games.

Metroids are definatly up there. Prime trilogy that is. Havent heard good things about Other M.
 

Azure-Supernova

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I'm being deadly sincere too. I have all of the issues with the OP, Battlefield 2142 does a good job of both health in multiplayer as well as makes use of a defibrilator.

The_root_of_all_evil said:
And ffs, get rid of the ubermacho marine. They're SO dull.
You know, I would love to play a shooter where you don't play a character with absolutely no weapon training. Right from the get go your first reaction to shooting indoors (deafening yourself for a bit); your first jam and clunky reload sequence. The first time your little greenhorn character fires his newly found .44 six shooter and has his aim gimped because of his sore shoulder.

Only as you shoot more frequently will you improve through completely hidden stats. I'd go for a noob with great characterisation over Marine #66 any day.
 

Smooth Operator

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Well it's this whole "streamlining" towards a "better experience"

But people don't realize that health/ammo scarcity and weapon diversity were huge strategic issues that gave games alot of that ever so important stand-out spice, take those away and suddenly you are doing the same monotone fights in every game and even when it's all exploding and jumping in your face it feels empty.

And the visual ques are almost completely gone, in olden games you got to figure out a map where you can find and do certain stuff and it felt good when it all clicked, now it's a brown and browner world with a "go here dumbass" marker... real nice :S
 

Kalabrikan

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With varied gameplay, I'd like to add the overemphasis on cover-based combat. Often times the only strategy in cover-based shooters is to take cover, fire, take cover while the enemy fires, lather, rinse, repeat. Developers try to get away with this under the pretense of realism, but they make games much less interesting as a result.
 

Doctor Glocktor

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Regenerating health smooths the gameplay, where in health bars, you're forced to stop and go on a retarded scavenger hunt for a bottle of pills that restores limbs.

Otherwise I agree with you.

But don't you DARE saying limited ammo makes a game better. It doesn't make you think, it doesn't make it tense, it makes you whip you're controller through the TV because you don't have enough rockets to kill the tank that you can't get past otherwise.
 

Fiz_The_Toaster

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auronvi said:
Fiz_The_Toaster said:
You've just stated almost every single problem I have with most shooters, and why I hardly play them. I always thought the regenerating health things was rather stupid and it felt unnatural to me, exactly why do I have to hide behind a couch to get the red out of my screen.

I'd love to play a good long shooter where the story makes sense and I'm not being bossed around by the squad leader like I'm their *****, and I only do it to drive the story along. You do make some good points that I never thought of though, or even bothered to since I was too busy being bored playing the game.
I have found that the developers do put in game modes for the different players. Like, you don't like the red jelly on the screen? Play Hardcore mode where 1-2 shots kill you. Halo with shields off. Regenerating health is a streamline mechanic and running around grabbing health packs is almost equally ridiculous. I always enjoyed shooters that rewarded the player that had the skills that would reward them in a real life combat situation. Fast reflexes and steady aim. I like the games that require you to listen to footsteps, not make your own, predict the movement of the enemy and react quickly when they come into view.

The MW2s and clones reward mastering their aim-bot mechanics more than anything. I love hardcore mode because when I am on fire, nothing can stop me because I can just shoot that much faster. Too many times if I play regular mode in MW2 do I get the first shots off, hit them square in the chest but they squeeze off a burst and drop to the ground and finish me before that 5th bullet could hit. That just frustrates me. First shot fired and hit should be the one who wins the confrontation because that is how it is. I feel like its more like shooting with rubber bullets and a test of whoever can stand up the longest.

^^This is all for multiplayer. I can suspend my belief better for single player. I don't mind if enemies can take a couple extra shots, that's why I put it on a higher difficulty.
I almost never play multiplayer when it comes to shooters, except for Borderlands, I do understand why developers do those certain things, because it works and people love it. I'm not knocking them for making that game style more tactical and squad based, I'm just not interested in them. I don't like Halo so I can't speak for that game, but as for COD, I can only play so much of a realistic shooter before I get turned off by it.

I've played MW2 on veteran only for the challenge and nothing more. I suppose the only reason I don't play multiplayer is because I don't play shooters all the time so my reflexes aren't that great until I play it long enough to where I'm pretty good at it, but normally I'm at that point where I want to play something different. Some people, like yourself, love those things about the genre, so I'm not gonna bash it for that. In my humble opinion, the red jelly thing to me is just silly and weird, but I guess that's just a personal gripe.
 

Laser Priest

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bombadilillo said:
1. Health. Vs Regen. I really hate regen. No matter what game it is all strategy goes out the window and becomes POP UP take out 1 or more baddies while taking damage POP DOWN and wait, repeat. Health makes you accountable for your actions, tense, and makes you think. I am all for hybrid systems. Have a shield that protects a few shots with a nonregen health below. Or health regens to a certain level so your never near zero. Awesome, go for it, but regen still turns all game play into a boring popup cover shooter.
Only if you play that way. The mixture is best, but having a small bit of health that regenerates makes it easier for developers to design battles as they know exactly how much health you'll be going into a battle with. It might not be the best system, but it certainly makes development easier and gives you less chance to get caught in bullshit situations such as a massive firefight with no healing items and low health.
2. Length, games are too freaking short. I look forward to the day when COD does not have a single player campaign. When they finally drop the pretext and token effort and just make a multiplayer game, put in some bots and challenges for singleplayers if you must. This worked with unreal tournament 10 years ago, its a viable strategy. I personally like single player campaigns more and would LOVE a distinct split. Make multi only games and single only games and put your effort into that. I want a 20 hour campaign. Keep the 5 hour crap. If it was 20 hours with replay value and multiple play style options I might just buy it instead of gamefly.
This I will agree with you on. I think Call of Duty's raging success convinced developers that a short campaign and a multiplayer focus is the way to go. I still would love to see games that last much longer. It seems RPGs are the place to go for that now.
3. Story, Im going to skirt tenuously close to the Half life debate here so bear with me. Spoiler alert as well. In half life near the start you have spent hours trying to get to the surface. The scientists have been talking about rumors of the military coming to rescue you all in your fight against mysterious aliens. You enter a room on a catwalk and see 2 soldiers! You are saved! A scientist yells ?Thank God youre here!? and the soldiers brutally gun him down. Thats it. You can surmise that its cover up time and your about to be covered up. Theres no cut scene spelling it out in detail the decisions back in Washington, you know what your character knows, nothing more. Later in the game black ops assassins show up and start taking out the soldiers! Height of irony, now their being covered up too. How much worse have things gotten? Someone high up is freaking out to the point that they dont trust the regular military! Compare this to a recent story telling event in COD:BO. I torture a person violently till they give me some bullet points for the plot, hand them a gun and their on my side now, the guy I just tortured, WTF. WTF, well glad hes not made about the whole insane pain thing. Now its not always necessary to keep just your characters perspective, and knowing plot beyond them can be good, but the modern fps isnt really doing a great job here.
I have to say that Half-Life is probably a bad comparison point here. Half Life has always had a great method of story telling in my opinion. Especially compared to CoD. Especially Treyarch. But other shooters have a decent story. Once again, I think Call of Duty's success promoted the action-over-story design.

4. Smart AI. A lot of review laud the smart AI in fpss like ?they use grenades to flush you out, they flank you?. I think this is a growing symptom of the health regen reducing things to cover/popup shooters. Smart AI really means, you have to switch cover occasionally or theyll get you. 12+ years ago there were smart enemies, they never stayed in the same cover, they flanked you, if you stay in same place they grenade launch your ass. On that point, they like you had grenade launchers on their rifles AND THEY USED THEM. This is all probably a problem with the idea of smart AI. We want challenging enemies not smart. Imagine a game with you vs 100+ actual players coordinating with each other in a single player setting. You would stand no chance at all and it wouldnt be fun.
All right, smart ain't easy to program. And smart generally contributes to the challenge. Believe me, we are far from truly intelligent AI.
5. Carrying 2 weapons. So you can carry only 2 pistols, but you can carry a m60 with ammo and a rocket launcher. I call shenanigans. Especially when my character model has a FREAKING PISTOL HOLSTER ON IT. At least have pistol +2 others?.This is a weird contention point because I know its silly to carry 12 different guns. Grid based and weight based are good systems but take away from the fps experience with the management factor. I kinda like the one of each style, one long gun one rocket/special one pistol one smg sized. I dont know what I like best here, but its defiantly not 2 guns PERIOD. I wanna save my shotty for when I need it dammit. Having different guns for different situations is fun. A lot of 2 gun games know this and but areas with a bunch of guns before big fights so you can choose. Why not just let me take more then game?
I have to say I like the games such as Gears of War that allow you to carry one weapon of multiple classes.
6. Varied gameplay. Fighting of zombies for a few hours with limited ammo and a crowbar, fighting soldiers and aliens, fighting just aliens in another dimension, occasional puzzle, pseudo stealth section, exploration, platforming. Dont get me wrong I like the token stealth level in COD, though its getting more ?follow some dude while he talks? unchallenging with each game. Otherwise shooters are just firefight, walk firefight. There has to be something fun to do between fights that developers can think of.
This just goes with the setting of most games. I'm not exactly sure how people would react if you were fighting Russians in Call of Duty then out of nowhere you're fighting ogres and other assorted shit. At least Halo gave us a switch between Aliens and Zombie Aliens.

I hope my randomly telling you my opinions has helped you with... Something.
 

bombadilillo

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Doctor Glocktor said:
Regenerating health smooths the gameplay, where in health bars, you're forced to stop and go on a retarded scavenger hunt for a bottle of pills that restores limbs.

Otherwise I agree with you.

But don't you DARE saying limited ammo makes a game better. It doesn't make you think, it doesn't make it tense, it makes you whip you're controller through the TV because you don't have enough rockets to kill the tank that you can't get past otherwise.
The alterantive of magicly restoring limbs that heal on there own makes damage mean nothing. And limited ammo should not come into play in a boss fight. If theres something big around have enough ammo to kill it around too. Maybe make the player run from building to building to get it, but thats a gamebreaking flaw to not have enough in a boss scenario.
 

artanis_neravar

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bombadilillo said:
I agree complete with all of these, and the only thing I would add is stop making games for console and porting them to the PC. Either do it the other way around or have a separate team for the PC versions
 

bombadilillo

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Yes, while its obviously not a fps dragon Age was supposed to be very different control wise and therefore gameplay wise between the console and pc versions. I played Crysis 2 on ps3 and it felt very different then Crysis on PC, was this just the change to the sequal or did the PC version suffer? Anyone who played PC version ring in please.
 

Nieroshai

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Can't argue with you there. There are people who love the cover-based style because it feels less gimmicky to them in particular than stomping on a first aid kit or eating a ration mid-battle and suddenly feeling like you just got out of the hot tub. Overall I agree though.
 

artanis_neravar

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bombadilillo said:
Yes, while its obviously not a fps dragon Age was supposed to be very different control wise and therefore gameplay wise between the console and pc versions. I played Crysis 2 on ps3 and it felt very different then Crysis on PC, was this just the change to the sequal or did the PC version suffer? Anyone who played PC version ring in please.
The PC version suffered in that the only display options we could change were screen size, anti-ailising, and vertical sync
 

bombadilillo

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If you want cover based, then go 3rd person. I don't particularly like it there either myself but at least its more servicable. And if thats the main point, to sit there and popup then sure have some regen, goes with the theme. I just find that boring.
 

Eclectic Dreck

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bombadilillo said:
1. Health. Vs Regen. I really hate regen. No matter what game it is all strategy goes out the window and becomes POP UP take out 1 or more baddies while taking damage POP DOWN and wait, repeat. Health makes you accountable for your actions, tense, and makes you think. I am all for hybrid systems. Have a shield that protects a few shots with a nonregen health below. Or health regens to a certain level so your never near zero. Awesome, go for it, but regen still turns all game play into a boring popup cover shooter.
Health regeneration means that combat in the game is primarily a game of resource management. While this is all well and good it forces a very conservative style of play that is anathema to high action. In order to get around this for epic set piece battles, game designers are forced to drop huge caches of health and ammunition. This effectively means you are using health regeneration but adding an unnecessary step to the process. The bottom line is if you want an "adrenaline fueled action game" you cannot have players constantly rooting around in corners looking for scraps of health. More importantly, you cannot have a game design that fundamentally forces players to play as slowly and carefully as possible.

Thus regenerating health is not, itself, a problem. It is simply indicative of a trend in modern video games where the focus is on the moment to moment action rather than on exploration and puzzle solving. If a game is going to use non regenerating health, the basic design of the game must encourage exploration. For an example, note that the best examples of the "old style" approached level design not as a well disguised corridor but rather as a maze.

bombadilillo said:
2. Length, games are too freaking short. I look forward to the day when COD does not have a single player campaign. When they finally drop the pretext and token effort and just make a multiplayer game, put in some bots and challenges for singleplayers if you must. This worked with unreal tournament 10 years ago, its a viable strategy. I personally like single player campaigns more and would LOVE a distinct split. Make multi only games and single only games and put your effort into that. I want a 20 hour campaign. Keep the 5 hour crap. If it was 20 hours with replay value and multiple play style options I might just buy it instead of gamefly.
Modern games require a much greater investment to produce any given segment of gameplay. Games are short not because they hate the player but rather because they want to ship the game in a reasonable span of time at a cost that can be overcome and a profit turned. If you want to complain about this, then complain about the fact that gamers have two desires that directly conflict: that a game look great and that a game be incredibly long and deep.

bombadilillo said:
3. Story, Im going to skirt tenuously close to the Half life debate here so bear with me. Spoiler alert as well. In half life near the start you have spent hours trying to get to the surface. The scientists have been talking about rumors of the military coming to rescue you all in your fight against mysterious aliens. You enter a room on a catwalk and see 2 soldiers! You are saved! A scientist yells ?Thank God youre here!? and the soldiers brutally gun him down. Thats it. You can surmise that its cover up time and your about to be covered up. Theres no cut scene spelling it out in detail the decisions back in Washington, you know what your character knows, nothing more. Later in the game black ops assassins show up and start taking out the soldiers! Height of irony, now their being covered up too. How much worse have things gotten? Someone high up is freaking out to the point that they dont trust the regular military! Compare this to a recent story telling event in COD:BO. I torture a person violently till they give me some bullet points for the plot, hand them a gun and their on my side now, the guy I just tortured, WTF. WTF, well glad hes not made about the whole insane pain thing. Now its not always necessary to keep just your characters perspective, and knowing plot beyond them can be good, but the modern fps isnt really doing a great job here.
Telling a story is a difficult thing especially when your primary mechanism of interaction with the world is "shooting stuff". One could build the story into the world in subtle ways but this often means players can completely miss the fact that there even was a story. They can be more direct but this is only useful if the game is designed to encourage exploration. Or they can rely on cutscenes which keep exposition happily divorced from gameplay. The latter is, by far, the simplest way to present a story.
bombadilillo said:
4. Smart AI. A lot of review laud the smart AI in fpss like ?they use grenades to flush you out, they flank you?. I think this is a growing symptom of the health regen reducing things to cover/popup shooters. Smart AI really means, you have to switch cover occasionally or theyll get you. 12+ years ago there were smart enemies, they never stayed in the same cover, they flanked you, if you stay in same place they grenade launch your ass. On that point, they like you had grenade launchers on their rifles AND THEY USED THEM. This is all probably a problem with the idea of smart AI. We want challenging enemies not smart. Imagine a game with you vs 100+ actual players coordinating with each other in a single player setting. You would stand no chance at all and it wouldnt be fun.
Smart AI is both incredibly difficult to develop and exceedingly expensive in terms of computations. Thus why most games rely on a combination of scripting and deterministic AI. It isn't any smarter than the designer who built the map. Better AI is always possible, but no one wants to sacrifice all that computing power to do so. Beyond that there is often a question of if better AI would solve a problem and the answer in most cases is no. AI is suited for games like Halo which is built as a linear sandbox. Most modern FPS are carefully crafted and controlled and thus better AI simply serves no purpose.

bombadilillo said:
5. Carrying 2 weapons. So you can carry only 2 pistols, but you can carry a m60 with ammo and a rocket launcher. I call shenanigans. Especially when my character model has a FREAKING PISTOL HOLSTER ON IT. At least have pistol +2 others?.This is a weird contention point because I know its silly to carry 12 different guns. Grid based and weight based are good systems but take away from the fps experience with the management factor. I kinda like the one of each style, one long gun one rocket/special one pistol one smg sized. I dont know what I like best here, but its defiantly not 2 guns PERIOD. I wanna save my shotty for when I need it dammit. Having different guns for different situations is fun. A lot of 2 gun games know this and but areas with a bunch of guns before big fights so you can choose. Why not just let me take more then game?
This is never really been a problem of realism so much as a limitation of the controller. Simply put there is no good way to switch between a large number of weapons. The difficulty of performing a simple weapon swap increases as the number of weapons a player can carry at any given moment increases.

bombadilillo said:
6. Varied gameplay. Fighting of zombies for a few hours with limited ammo and a crowbar, fighting soldiers and aliens, fighting just aliens in another dimension, occasional puzzle, pseudo stealth section, exploration, platforming. Dont get me wrong I like the token stealth level in COD, though its getting more ?follow some dude while he talks? unchallenging with each game. Otherwise shooters are just firefight, walk firefight. There has to be something fun to do between fights that developers can think of.
Again, this isn't a question of what can be done. It is simply that people have overwhelmingly demonstrated that they love linear FPS games that are packed with action. Most of the problems on your list are the result of simply giving people something, noticing that they bought it and giving them an iteration of the same in the future.
 

Doctor Glocktor

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bombadilillo said:
Doctor Glocktor said:
Regenerating health smooths the gameplay, where in health bars, you're forced to stop and go on a retarded scavenger hunt for a bottle of pills that restores limbs.

Otherwise I agree with you.

But don't you DARE saying limited ammo makes a game better. It doesn't make you think, it doesn't make it tense, it makes you whip you're controller through the TV because you don't have enough rockets to kill the tank that you can't get past otherwise.
The alterantive of magicly restoring limbs that heal on there own makes damage mean nothing. And limited ammo should not come into play in a boss fight. If theres something big around have enough ammo to kill it around too. Maybe make the player run from building to building to get it, but thats a gamebreaking flaw to not have enough in a boss scenario.
Ultimately, I find regenerating health to be more enjoyable. Nothing breaks the immersion more to me then having to leave the firefight to find a health pack hidden in a crate around the level, instead of biding my time behind cover.

Limited ammo should not come into play at all, ever. Its a forced bottleneck to slow players down and force them to play the game longer.
 

Veldt Falsetto

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believer258 said:
Veldt Falsetto said:
Go play the Metroid Prime Trilogy :) you will see.
But the Metroid Prime Trilogy is less of a shooter and more of an adventure game that happens to be in first person and has a gun. It really, really isn't a shooter, so first person shooters really, really can't be compared to it.
Not all FPS has to be linear and isn't the main gameplay of Metroid Prime shooting in first person?

Don't make me go overboard and explain how Pokemon Snap is an FPS, please don't make me!