Modern Warfare 2 Opening Is Real, Aussies Flip Out

[Tiamat666]

A question: Have you played Shadow of the Colossus?

I'm afraid I never even heard of that game. And it's unlikely I'll ever play it as I don't own and will probably never own a Playstation.

At any rate, I'm not quite following your argument that "It's indecent for letting us play out the terrible thing that is happening to people right now." By that logic, Call of Duty 4 was indecent for allowing the player to participate in a war not unlike what is happening in the Middle East.

That's a little out of context. I meant that people getting gunned down by terrorists is something that happens almost weekly. Read the previous posts if you want the whole picture.

 

[Vierran]

A game is NOT a movie. Story telling isn't a main part of games. It's an extra. A nice one in some cases, but still an extra. Advancing the story writing in a game won't advance the games' medium at any rate. There have been tons of games with good stories. No one sought to copy them. People (well most of them anyway) do not buy and play games for their story (otherwise Planescape: Torment would have been a very famous game)

Tell that to Mass Effect, Gears of War, Beyond Good & Evil, Half-Life 2, any Final Fantasy game, Batman: Arkham Asylum, Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver, none of which would be nearly as famous or widely purchased were it not for their stories.

Tell me then, how do I constantly hear how great are the games' other assets but never the stories? And Beyond Good & Evil shouldn't be on that list, because it was a flop. I think that all of those aforementioned would be damned fine without a need for a story.

Gears of War? The multiplayer. Mass Effect? The fact that it was a space opera ringed well for quite a few people. And Half-Life 2 took quite a ride on the back of its predecessor which didn't have much in the way of story (Initially it also sold less but over the time and with price drops and the whole Steam Mcguffin it did exceed its predecessor in sales) Batman Arkham Asylum? Duh, it's Batman. (In other words a good game using a famous iconic hero. It wouldn't be all that successful if it wasn't Batman) I won't answer about Soul Reaver because I don't know all that much about the game.

My point still stands. I almost never see stories copied (especially not the greatest ones), but I often see gameplay ideas stolen right and left.

There is a whole genre of games that story telling is the main focus and that would be RPGs, try telling the millions of people playing them that the story doesn't matter, although lets not forget that storytelling is a huge part of most games, without it all games would be the same linear game just doing slightly different things.

 

[MrSnugglesworth]

How ironic, as I just watched todays new Doomsday Arcade.



OT: Eh. I'm buying it. I won't skip it. Thats that.

 

[Georgeman]

Tell me then, how do I constantly hear how great are the games' other assets but never the stories? And Beyond Good & Evil shouldn't be on that list, because it was a flop. I think that all of those aforementioned games would be damned fine without a need for a story.

Gears of War? The multiplayer. Mass Effect? The fact that it was a space opera ringed well for quite a few people. And Half-Life 2 took quite a ride on the back of its predecessor which didn't have much in the way of story (Initially it also sold less but over the time and with price drops and the whole Steam Mcguffin it did exceed its predecessor in sales) Batman Arkham Asylum? Duh, it's Batman. (In other words a good game using a famous iconic hero. It wouldn't be all that successful if it wasn't Batman) I won't answer about Soul Reaver because I don't know all that much about the game. As for Final Fantasy, I can safely attest that the feeling of exploring an interesting world is far more memorable than a story or characters.

My point still stands. I almost never see stories copied (especially not the greatest ones), but I often see gameplay ideas stolen right and left.

I honestly don't think a single one of the games I listed would have been successful (or in some cases, even possible) had they not had compelling stories to go along with them, including Gears of War. In fact, I don't know a single person who bought Gears of War specifically for the multiplayer.

But I do think it possible. You see, only a small minority of gamers truly care about stories. Stories can become barriers to the enjoyment of a game, especially, if they are unskippable. Also, just because you think that a story is "compelling" doesn't mean that everyone agrees. Others might call it obnoxious, intrusive, nonsensical, etc. Also, stories are not "replayable" so they are hardly a strong selling point.

 

[MrSnugglesworth]

So, movies and books can depict modern violence, but games can't? Why?

In movies or books there's actors and you don't have any choice at all. You identify alot more with what goes on in a videogame because you're the one in control, especially in first-person mode. The comparison you're making is flawed because they are very different mediums. Interaction is a very powerful thing. I mean, you acknowledge this yourself;

Sure, IW could just have made this a cutscene, but then they'd just be aping a movie. By making the player do it, by asking the player to play the role of somebody doing something that it makes unmistakably clear is reprehensibly evil, that's something that a book or movie could never do.

right here.

You're absolutely correct that this is stuff that happens around the globe today, but I think it's for that exact reason that games and developers shouldn't be afraid to tackle it.

I have to completely disagree with you here. The game is not a documentary. It's a game and it lacks decency. Yes, "decency" is a terrible thing to say or expect these days. Only pussies and grandma use that word. But I still believe in something like that and to me it's indecent to make a joke about someone at his funeral. It's indecent to act like a handicapped person infront of someone who is handicapped. It's indecent to play on the shortcomings or misfortunes of others, right in their face, and this is what this game does.

If movies had never sought to make people uncomfortable or make them feel bad, we'd never have a film like Schindler's List.

Schindlers list shows you the atrocities commited by the Nazis by showing you what the Nazis did. It doesn't require you dress up in SS-uniform and accompany a Jew to a gas chamber to make it's point, does it? Would you consider it appropriate if Spielberg allowed some cinema visitors to do just that before seeing the movie? So that they can better appreciate what was happening back then?

Ok, I'm going to get some sort of reprimanding for this, but really.

Take that firm grip you have on what you think is the world around you's balls, and let go.


I don't see why everyones so serious about this. Its a fucking game. Oh no, you're shooting people!

Who the fuck says those people are innocent? In real life, all of them are going to hell. Innocence is a word people throw around to wildly. More than half probably had sex before they got married, did drugs, or stole something.


All of which are against the 10 commandments. Even if you're athiest, all of those are breaking a certain moral code that all people have lost today.

 

[John Funk]

A question: Have you played Shadow of the Colossus?

I'm afraid I never even heard of that game. And it's unlikely I'll ever play it as I don't own and will probably never own a Playstation.

At any rate, I'm not quite following your argument that "It's indecent for letting us play out the terrible thing that is happening to people right now." By that logic, Call of Duty 4 was indecent for allowing the player to participate in a war not unlike what is happening in the Middle East.

That's a little out of context. I meant that people getting gunned down by terrorists is something that happens almost weekly. Read the previous posts if you want the whole picture.

Ah. Well, if you played SotC (fantastic, fantastic game - one of the best of the last generation), it was about a boy who arrived in this distant, empty land with a dead girl, and made a pact with a supernatural being. The only way to revive her was to slay 16 colossi around this world - it was a very minimalistic story, but so very effective.

Here's the thing: The colossi weren't evil creatures. You were the one attacking them, and some only fought back after they were attacked, with you the aggressor, attacking them while they were sleeping or catching them otherwise off guard. And every time you killed one, the game did its best to make you feel "holy shit, I'm the bad guy here, I'm murdering these innocent creatures and slaying these ancient beasts that never did anything to me." It was clear that you were doing something wrong, and the course of the game reflected that.

It was an incredibly emotional experience, and it would have never resonated with me half as much if it had just shown me "Oh hey, there's this guy who is running around killing these Colossi." Because you did it, your actions had more weight, and you felt revulsion at what you were being asked to do. It lent the story much more emotional impact than it would have otherwise.

Perhaps that's where our disagreement lies. I've known first-hand how genuinely impactful it can be when the game asks you to do something you don't want to do, and how successful it is in drawing you into the story.

 

[Raykuza]

I'm uncomfortable with this. This scene is far too close to reality. I have no problem with killing civilians in GTA's clearly fiction environment, but this terrorist attack is reminiscent of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Mumbai_attacks

That's right. This is not fiction, not just a game. This shit was real. I don't want reality in my video games or video games in my reality (if I enjoyed reality I'd go outside more often).
To me, this is no different than a game asking me to steer a plane into a building full of people in a well populated city or to flip the switch of a gas chamber full of concentration camp prisoners. I draw the line at recreating atrocities. It's disturbing. It's offensive. I can't do it. I wont do it.

And being okay with murder doesn't make you cool or mature. You're just desensitized, and just because I'm not, it doesn't make me a 12-year-old.

 

[L33tsauce_Marty]

So the Aussies are going to ban a game they otherwise probably wouldn't have, but America isn't banning the game (I can't recall the last time they did) and the game takes place IN America. Am I understanding this correctly? What a mess.

They may not ban the game, but just wait for the media shit storm and we'll see what goes down.

 

[JeanLuc761]

But I do think it possible. You see, only a small minority of gamers truly care about stories. Stories can become barriers to the enjoyment of a game, especially, if they are unskippable. Also, just because you think that a story is "compelling" doesn't mean that everyone agrees. Others might call it obnoxious, intrusive, nonsensical, etc. Also, stories are not "replayable" so they are hardly a strong selling point.

I'm sorry, I can't agree with you on this. The entire purpose of a campaign mode in video games is to present a storyline, and many games are renowned because of their stories. It's possible I'm in a minority (because I care about the story considerably), but I don't see how anyone can find the storylines trivial in any of the games I listed.

 

[Amnestic]

So, movies and books can depict modern violence, but games can't? Why?

In movies or books there's actors and you don't have any choice at all. You identify alot more with what goes on in a videogame because you're the one in control, especially in first-person mode. The comparison you're making is flawed because they are very different mediums. Interaction is a very powerful thing. I mean, you acknowledge this yourself;

Sure, IW could just have made this a cutscene, but then they'd just be aping a movie. By making the player do it, by asking the player to play the role of somebody doing something that it makes unmistakably clear is reprehensibly evil, that's something that a book or movie could never do.

right here.

You're absolutely correct that this is stuff that happens around the globe today, but I think it's for that exact reason that games and developers shouldn't be afraid to tackle it.

I have to completely disagree with you here. The game is not a documentary. It's a game and it lacks decency. Yes, "decency" is a terrible thing to say or expect these days. Only pussies and grandma use that word. But I still believe in something like that and to me it's indecent to make a joke about someone at his funeral. It's indecent to act like a handicapped person infront of someone who is handicapped. It's indecent to play on the shortcomings or misfortunes of others, right in their face, and this is what this game does.

If movies had never sought to make people uncomfortable or make them feel bad, we'd never have a film like Schindler's List.

Schindlers list shows you the atrocities commited by the Nazis by showing you what the Nazis did. It doesn't require you dress up in SS-uniform and accompany a Jew to a gas chamber to make it's point, does it? Would you consider it appropriate if Spielberg allowed some cinema visitors to do just that before seeing the movie? So that they can better appreciate what was happening back then?

Ok, I'm going to get some sort of reprimanding for this, but really.

Take that firm grip you have on what you think is the world around you's balls, and let go.


I don't see why everyones so serious about this. Its a fucking game. Oh no, you're shooting people!

Who the fuck says those people are innocent? In real life, all of them are going to hell. Innocence is a word people throw around to wildly. More than half probably had sex before they got married, did drugs, or stole something.


All of which are against the 10 commandments. Even if you're athiest, all of those are breaking a certain moral code that all people have lost today.

I'm having trouble taking a lecture on the Ten Commandments seriously from someone with what appears to be Satan surrounded by a Star of David in their avatar, alongside the declaration that you're a Satanist in your profile.

Somehow it's just a little hard for me to take you seriously.

 

[Tiamat666]

I don't see why everyones so serious about this. Its a fucking game. Oh no, you're shooting people!
Who the fuck says those people are innocent? In real life, all of them are going to hell. Innocence is a word people throw around to wildly. More than half probably had sex before they got married, did drugs, or stole something.

Yes, of course. And because it's just a game, let's also have a child-molestation game where you abduct and rape young boys.
And because people do drugs and cheat on their wives, they deserve to die or have their families blown up to pieces infront of their eyes... whatever man. Whatever.

 

[Georgeman]

snip

As far as Rpgs are concerned, character creation and interesting worlds can be better sellers than a story. Oblivion and Fallout 3 won't be remembered for their stories but for the ability to explore huge worlds and do lots of neat and cool things.

And I insist: Game worlds can convey a far better story than a boring cutscene or some random dude/dudette.

I don't see why everyones so serious about this. Its a fucking game. Oh no, you're shooting people!
Who the fuck says those people are innocent? In real life, all of them are going to hell. Innocence is a word people throw around to wildly. More than half probably had sex before they got married, did drugs, or stole something.

Yes, of course. And because it's just a game, let's also have a child-molestation game where you abduct and rape young boys.

But, Rapelay already exists! (Oh wait, that covers girls)

 

[John Funk]

I'm uncomfortable with this. This scene is far too close to reality. I have no problem with killing civilians in GTA's clearly fiction environment, but this terrorist attack is reminiscent of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Mumbai_attacks

That's right. This is not fiction, not just a game. This shit was real. I don't want reality in my video games or video games in my reality (if I enjoyed reality I'd go outside more often).
To me, this is no different than a game asking me to steer a plane into a building full of people in a well populated city or to flip the switch of a gas chamber full of concentration camp prisoners. I draw the line at recreating atrocities. It's disturbing. It's offensive. I can't do it. I wont do it.

And being okay with murder doesn't make you cool or mature. You're just desensitized, and just because I'm not, it doesn't make me a 12-year-old.

Okay, hang on, hold the phone.

Why are you assuming that everyone who is *okay with the idea of this being in the game* is automatically *okay with murder* and desensitized? Personally, I know damn well that I'm going to have an incredibly difficult time actually doing it in the game, and it's going to disturb me to high hell and back, and I'm certainly no 12-year-old.

But that's the point of the sequence.

I'm not even sure it is a recreation of the Mumbai attacks, to be honest. This game has been in development since 2007. The idea of the terrorist attack on the airport was probably in concepts since well before the end of 2008, and if anything I think this is just an unfortunate coincidence.

 

[Spaceman_Spiff]

Too far Call of Duty, too far.

 

[John Funk]

snip

As far as Rpgs are concerned, character creation and interesting worlds can be better sellers than a story. Oblivion and Fallout 3 won't be remembered for their stories but for the ability to explore huge worlds and do lots of neat and cool things.

And I insist: Game worlds can convey a far better story than a boring cutscene or some random dude/dudette.

And right there, you've nailed it on the head. Actions in a game can convey a far better story than a boring cutscene. Why do you think the one thing Everybody remembers from CoD4 was the ending of "Shock and Awe" as you controlled the dying marine as he stumbled around, his vision fading, until he finally collapsed and died? Because it was a sequence that was not just a "boring cutscene" but one that was fully integrated into the gameplay.

 

[MrSnugglesworth]

I don't see why everyones so serious about this. Its a fucking game. Oh no, you're shooting people!
Who the fuck says those people are innocent? In real life, all of them are going to hell. Innocence is a word people throw around to wildly. More than half probably had sex before they got married, did drugs, or stole something.

Yes, of course. And because it's just a game, let's also have a child-molestation game where you abduct and rape young boys.
And because people do drugs and cheat on their wives, they deserve to die or have their families blown up to pieces infront of their eyes... whatever man. Whatever.

They do. I don't think you know me, but I am a strong believe in Thomas Hobbes. There are rules, and they are there for a reason. If it were my perfect rule, if a child steals a piece of gum, his parents are killed, and he is forced to live with it.



I don't think I need more examples.

 

[MrSnugglesworth]

So, movies and books can depict modern violence, but games can't? Why?

In movies or books there's actors and you don't have any choice at all. You identify alot more with what goes on in a videogame because you're the one in control, especially in first-person mode. The comparison you're making is flawed because they are very different mediums. Interaction is a very powerful thing. I mean, you acknowledge this yourself;

Sure, IW could just have made this a cutscene, but then they'd just be aping a movie. By making the player do it, by asking the player to play the role of somebody doing something that it makes unmistakably clear is reprehensibly evil, that's something that a book or movie could never do.

right here.

You're absolutely correct that this is stuff that happens around the globe today, but I think it's for that exact reason that games and developers shouldn't be afraid to tackle it.

I have to completely disagree with you here. The game is not a documentary. It's a game and it lacks decency. Yes, "decency" is a terrible thing to say or expect these days. Only pussies and grandma use that word. But I still believe in something like that and to me it's indecent to make a joke about someone at his funeral. It's indecent to act like a handicapped person infront of someone who is handicapped. It's indecent to play on the shortcomings or misfortunes of others, right in their face, and this is what this game does.

If movies had never sought to make people uncomfortable or make them feel bad, we'd never have a film like Schindler's List.

Schindlers list shows you the atrocities commited by the Nazis by showing you what the Nazis did. It doesn't require you dress up in SS-uniform and accompany a Jew to a gas chamber to make it's point, does it? Would you consider it appropriate if Spielberg allowed some cinema visitors to do just that before seeing the movie? So that they can better appreciate what was happening back then?

Ok, I'm going to get some sort of reprimanding for this, but really.

Take that firm grip you have on what you think is the world around you's balls, and let go.


I don't see why everyones so serious about this. Its a fucking game. Oh no, you're shooting people!

Who the fuck says those people are innocent? In real life, all of them are going to hell. Innocence is a word people throw around to wildly. More than half probably had sex before they got married, did drugs, or stole something.


All of which are against the 10 commandments. Even if you're athiest, all of those are breaking a certain moral code that all people have lost today.

I'm having trouble taking a lecture on the Ten Commandments seriously from someone with what appears to be Satan surrounded by a Star of David in their avatar, alongside the declaration that you're a Satanist in your profile.

Somehow it's just a little hard for me to take you seriously.

Ever heard of Lawful Evil? I revere Satan because he is the epitome of what humans are and always will be. Bad. Bad. Bad.

 

[Vierran]

snip

As far as Rpgs are concerned, character creation and interesting worlds can be better sellers than a story. Oblivion and Fallout 3 won't be remembered for their stories but for the ability to explore huge worlds and do lots of neat and cool things.

And I insist: Game worlds can convey a far better story than a boring cutscene or some random dude/dudette.

The point you originally made was that very few games are recognized for their storytelling when there are tons and lots of people play them.

As for you point here you are saying that a game world can convey a much better story then a cut-scene, but that is still story, story telling does not need to be in a cut-scene.

 

[Tiamat666]

Here's the thing: The colossi weren't evil creatures. You were the one attacking them, and some only fought back after they were attacked, with you the aggressor, attacking them while they were sleeping or catching them otherwise off guard. And every time you killed one, the game did its best to make you feel "holy shit, I'm the bad guy here, I'm murdering these innocent creatures and slaying these ancient beasts that never did anything to me." It was clear that you were doing something wrong, and the course of the game reflected that.

It does sound like a great game. But I see a difference here. In the game you're talking about you have to make ambivalent decisions, but you act out of a sense of good. The character you play doesn't sound like a homicidal maniac, but like someone doing his best to help and has to make difficuilt choices along the way.

In contrast MW2 simply lets you act out the homicidal maniac.
I don't really see any thought-provoking moral depth here. Just shock value and voyeurism.

 

[Georgeman]

But I do think it possible. You see, only a small minority of gamers truly care about stories. Stories can become barriers to the enjoyment of a game, especially, if they are unskippable. Also, just because you think that a story is "compelling" doesn't mean that everyone agrees. Others might call it obnoxious, intrusive, nonsensical, etc. Also, stories are not "replayable" so they are hardly a strong selling point.

I'm sorry, I can't agree with you on this. The entire purpose of a campaign mode in video games is to present a storyline, and many games are renowned because of their stories. It's possible I'm in a minority (because I care about the story considerably), but I don't see how anyone can find the storylines trivial in any of the games I listed.

Renowed? By whom? The game critics? Or a small minority of gamers? Critical success doesn't necessarily equate to commercial success. Many people wished that Planescape had sold better. It didn't. Same case with Beyond Good & Evil, Psychonauts, World Ends with You, etc.

Feel free to like story based games. I also do like them (I still consider Planescape my favourite game and I have a soft spot for Bioware Rpgs) But we can't just say that they are selling well when they clearly ain't. There must be a reason that the people don't buy these videogames.