Morality Matters

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aashell13

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Jan 31, 2011
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i think james really meant 1 dimensional morality systems where you have a slider that moves up/down the alignment bar like in KOTOR. I've never actually seen a 2 dimensional morality system, but it seems like a much more interesting concept :p

[/nitpicky math nerd]
 

PrinceofPersia

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Sep 17, 2010
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The.Bard said:
I actually enjoyed what Bioware did in Jade Empire more than any other game I've played. Instead of "Good" and "Evil", they went with a system where you could be a complete suckup, a completely evil murdering jerk, or more of a "survival of the fittest" neutral stance.

The game still only clung to a 2d meter (open palm = good, closed fist = bad), but the choices gave you much more freedom.

For instance, you might encounter a prisoner in a cage. The open palmer would free them. The evil person might kill them & loot their body. But the closed fist would tell them they needed to get free on their own and prove they were strong enough to survive by killing their guard. Sure, it was still technically evil, but it walked a wonderful line between "save everyone" and "kill everyone". I felt much more like a real character, and not some cartoony goody two shoes or mustache twirler. I felt like everything I did was completely justified, even though the choices were completely vile at times.
Actually I hate to say this but that system in Jade Empire is unfortunately a knock-off of the 1d meter from KOTOR. The concepts behind it as explained by one of the NPC's earlier on made me think, "Wow this is something new!" especially with the path of the closed fist but unfortunately this concept failed in implementation. If the meter had been 2d with a law/chaos axis then it would have been a departure.
 

ReiverCorrupter

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I think that RPGs would benefit from changing the 'moral' choice system to a 'personality development' system. You could have bars for the certain emotional dispositions of the character, and have buttons assigned to those dispositions for reactions during conversations. 'Evil' could be replaced by any number of more psychological traits, like 'sadistic', 'hate filled', 'rage-aholic' etc. For instance, you could just press the B button for anger in real time during a conversation and your character will respond accordingly. I also think that this can allow conversations to be more cinematice and organic, as long as you developed the system so that players reliably got the response that they think they're going to get.

(I could see it getting problematic though if the character gets angry at the wrong thing. For instance, someone could tell them that half the people in this one town were killed by the enemy, and the player might have hated that town so much that he wanted them all to die, but when he presses the anger button the character acts angry that they were killed at all.)

You could have more interesting combinations of personality traits this way. Maybe your character isn't particularly angry or hate filled, but is just greedy. Hell, maybe he or she is also compassionate, but greed wins out. If you have a plurality of emotional responses in a game that affects the player status, you can naturally build complex, three-dimensional characters instead of this linear division between 'good' and 'bad'.

Take Reaver from Fable. He is lustful, greedy, vain, and sadistic, which constitutes a certain kind of evil. But he's anything but hot-tempered. In fact, he's also kind of a coward, which could be another factor. But another villain that is also considered evil could be just the opposite. They could be hate-filled and bent on revenge, easy to excite, but also brave in the face of danger. Hell, they could also be puritanical. Think of the villain from Fable 2. He was a cold puritanical nut-job. In most traditional ways, Reaver is more of a villain than him, but he's the one you face, and Reaver turns out to be your reluctant ally.

You could also set these things as binaries as well. Binaries work fine if you have a lot of them. For instance, you can contrast greediness with altruism, lustful vs. puritanical, cowardly vs. brave, passionate vs. cold and rational. etc. etc. Even if some of them are false binaries, they will still make for greater gameplay depth. You can even have characters associate with those who approach them on the scale in one quality, but disapprove of the character's other qualities. That would actually make for complex relationships. Maybe Bioware does something like this, idk. I'd play their games except I'm just not a fan of the turn based action. The only one I did play was KOTOR. I loved the plot and the choices, but the gameplay just wasn't a turn-on.
 

SlothfulCobra

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Nov 18, 2009
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I'd say that a strict "morality" system isn't gonna make things much more fun, but it would be nice to have a bunch of choices as to what happens in the game world.

Maybe if an RPG did the whole "faction opinions of you" thing that Mercenaries did, it'd be pretty cool.
 

honestdiscussioner

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Jul 17, 2010
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What about Fallout: New Vegas's morality system? It changed depending upon which faction you were dealing with. By the end, you certainly had to pick sides, and nearly all the big factions were morally grey . . . well maybe the Legion were more evil than good, but still that was an interesting system I'd like to see further developed.
 

Rakor

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The thing with New Vegas was that the morality system meant nothing. Few blatant murders would give you bad karma and only an occasional quest would have a bad karma decision.

In light of my new view on these things, I kinda like this. In fact the karma system is merely a tacked on thing in new vegas seeing as I would steal anything and everything not tied down, murder people, and kill puppies, yet still end the game max good because some of the people in my wake were evil. When you just ignore it, you are simply left with worrying how others see you and mere personal opinions of what might be "right" in a situation. Rather than wildly murder people to fill a bar, you simply notice it just makes people not like you and thus without specific "raise a number" benefits you can simply react to situations as you yourself see fit, or as you see your character sees fit.

Personally *spoiler*, i saw no reason to not take over the wastes myself because gosh darnit, I liked hanging out with brotherhood of steel chick and somehow I assume she would not like me blowing up her home as ordered by...well...everyone.

Regardless, I agree it was cool that there were no really angelic groups to inevitably side with so you came down to your own choices.
 

Twad

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Nov 19, 2009
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I personnaly like fallout (fallout 2 comes to mind, buti didnt play it in a LONG while, so im speaking out of memory) with choices and "morality". I could murder a whole city for the hell of it, of do some quest and get them supplies wich will make them prosper (at the endgame).
Kill one (or many) crime boss and see what happens later.
Basically choices have consequences that sometimes goes beyond the immediate "morality stat change" or reward.
 

feauxx

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Sep 7, 2010
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Guy Jackson said:
The lengths they go to in order to avoid saying "Mass Effect" are quite funny.
i noticed that too :p
guess it was to be expected that the comments would cover that.
 

Reallink

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Feb 17, 2011
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I particularly agree with Yahtzee on this one. I am not one to play the evil character or generally kill people for fun in games, so the idea that I am cut off from content because I don't want to act in a contradictory manner is annoying.

I am interested in the idea of how morality is depicted in Catherine, if I have interpreted it correctly. Your morality is based on how you act in day to day life and how you answer questions, then act in a morally ambiguous based on how your character responded up to that point. Other games have probably done this, but this one springs to mind. I just think its good that the character has to commit to a life style, and can't just be flighty in their decision to be good or bad
 

Julien Brightside

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Oct 7, 2010
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I thought Overlord 2 had an interesting touch.

You start off as neutral and through your actions decide whether you are a destructive asshole or an enslaving one.
 

Tonimata

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"I just have lingering guilt from friends that no longer speak to me for the crimes against Nintendo humanity committed in the name of Rupees."

Same, but on the first Final Fantasy Chrystal Chronicles. Running away with the mana chalice when your friends are busy killing the bosses NEVER. And I do mean NEVER. gets old. P-E-R-I-O-D.
 

conflictofinterests

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SteelStallion said:
I was planning on playing Chrono Trigger soon, thanks a lot... jerk.

Anyways, to be honest I just think it isn't fair to judge someone's decisions as "good or evil". I mean, a lot of decisions that I've made during Mass Effect, deemed evil by the game developers, I whole heartedly find completely rational and justified.

Who are you to judge me and tell me whether what I'm doing is evil or not?

Choices should simply be that; choices. If I make a decision, don't tell me whether I'm making the right or wrong one, don't peg a +1 demon marker over my head, simply keep the game moving and let me live with the consequences.

No good choices, no evil choices. Just choices to be made at the discretion of the player, and the consequences that follow.
Especially in 2, there's THAT ONE CHOICE where there shouldn't have BEEN a Paragon option. BOTH outcomes should have been Renegade, because there is no right answer in that moral quandary. (I'm pretty sure most people who've played know what I'm talking about. If you need more of a hint, Geth is all I'm giving.)
 

Mutak

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Oct 29, 2009
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I don't like morality systems because it turns moral choices into just another game mechanic - a new set of points to score. Just SHOW the effects of my choices on the characters around me and on the game world/plot.

On the other hand, on a purely utilitarian level, morality systems do at least give me some additional shorthand info to help me understand what effect my choices are going to have. I hate it when i go into a conversation and the snippets don't fully and accurately reflect the ensuing dialog and the choices they represent. "WTF? Why is Jack suddenly getting all up ons me? I was just trying to be supportive, and i know if i break it off now she's going to go back to being a total psycho!"
 

Bluecho

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Dec 30, 2010
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I think the last part about Chrono Trigger helps to illustrate how I think morality should be implemented in games: freedom and consequence. If a player is given a chance to do something that would give them a tangental benefit but would involve going something bad, like stealing a sandwich or killing a priest, they should be free to make it. However, that freedom should then lead to consequences. If one steals the sandwich or kills the priest, what if people eventually find out? The populace could ostricize the player, making it more difficult to do things in regular society, not to mention sending the fuzz.

This should be the way things go in games because that's how real life works: do something bad, and it comes back to bite you. Steal something, bring the fuzz and become less able to support yourself through legal means by a slight amount. Kill a man in rage, bring the fuzz and have the stress garnered from the anger to lower your life span by a bit. Really, anger isn't good for your health, so make angry choices in the game incur minor stat penalties.

Obviously that would be a bit much, but you see where I'm going with this. A morality system should reflect real life in that all bad descisions have harmful (or potentially harmful) consequnces.
 

anonymity88

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Sep 20, 2010
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WanderingFool said:
Oh God... I remember that part in Chrono Trigger when I was put on trial... Man was I shocked by that. I was so surprised, I actually restarted the game to avoid being a jerk the next time around.
Same, I wanted to know if it was possible to be found innocent. Which I did, and then got put in prison anyway. >_>
 

BlindMessiah94

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Nov 12, 2009
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No offense, but who the heck is Mikey Neumann?

I was enjoying Bob, Yahtzee, and James just fine actually. I wish James would speak up a bit more though, he always has the most data to back up his points.
 

briunj04

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Apr 9, 2011
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I've never liked morality systems that are only 2 dimensional. I'm with James on this, if you want to create a morality system, it should have multiple facets that you need to consider. I'm still waiting for a game to implement a color wheel like morality system, but when one does come out, I'd buy it.

One game that I think could really implement a morality system in a creative way would be Advance Wars. You would get docked "mercy" points if you force one of your units to fight even when it's low on health. You could also govern you cities differently by raising tax money or lowering freedom and if you rule the cities like a dictator, you would earn "oppression" points. Each CO would have a morality chart which controls the way they play and what perks they have.
 

templar1138a

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Dec 1, 2010
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The only morality systems I've felt worked were those of the Mass Effect games and Dragon Age.

In Dragon Age (Origins, still have yet to play 2), there was no good/evil bar. Instead, your morality was measured by your reputation with your companions. That's along the lines of the faction measurement: Morals are relative.

In the Mass Effect games, I've noticed that no matter what moral choice you make in a mission, many decisions have a Paragon/Renegade/Neutral choice for how to do it. Not only that, but gaining Paragon points doesn't subtract Renegade points (and vice-versa). Essentially, Mass Effect doesn't gauge morality, but method; the idea of "It doesn't matter who you are on the inside, it's your actions that define you."