MOVIEBOB you're wrong about the Mass Effect Ending! The art is ours as well as theirs.

[Dr Jones]

Right, so got some interesting responses, sorry if I don't reply to all of them, don't really have the time right now, but hopefully I will get back to those who I've missed.

Congratulations with your opinion and all, but there was ZERO reason to make a new thread about it. Your opinion brings nothing new to the table, it could aswell be a post in the already well established Moviebob ME3 thread.
Why isnt this locked?

I did explain why but guess you didn't read it. I've read the other threads but felt that the argument got overshadowed by people wanting a happier ending and the like. There didn't seem to be any look into the source of this discontent, such as the personalisation effect of the games that was negated by the ending, and how this affects our perceptions of art, of games as art, and the relationship between the audience and artist. And I didn't want that being swamped in the hundreds of other posts. Hope that answered your question.

That is a terrible reason, tbh. You are basically saying that you feel your opinion is more important than others, and wanted a special place to put it, so people would read it.

Yes. I don't understand your point.

You act as if your opinion deserves a thread, as if your opinion is something special, and it deserves an audience more than other people's opinions, which is a bit arrogant.
Every person who has made another Mass Effect 3 ending thread, is just another schmuck like you, who thinks their opinion is all-high and mighty, whereas others are just common rubble saying "Bioware bad!", whereas your opinion is simply so immaculate that it deserves it's own thread.
It's arrogant, what you are doing.

Personal attacks like 'schmuck' aren't very becoming, and does go to show that maybe some opinions are more important than others after all. And so what if I wanted to make my own thread. I'm pretty happy with it. I got say my piece and I've received more replies for it than I know what to do with. I mean, you're replying to them too aren't you? I still don't see what your point is. If no one ever thought they point was important they would never say anything.

It is incredibly arrogant to assume, that your opinion is worth more than others'. My point is that you're arrogant for thinking your opinion is worth more than others. And yes i am replying to your posts, but for all the wrong reasons. I'm not argumenting against or with you, about what your opinion is about, rather, i'm saying your are incredibly arrogant for making a thread like that, and even now, saying that some opinions are worth more than others'.

It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

 

[Murmillos]

The ending of ME3 showdown is going to be interesting:

Do you have BioWare, whom wishes to hang on to their "created artistic" game and won't change it: at the risk of losing future customers.

Or does BioWare realize that they are a just business and realize that sometimes fixing something that as generally viewed upon is broken, and should be changed to keep your loyal fan-base, loyal.


I'm not saying I'll never buy another BioWare game again, but I can say 100% I'll never buy one of their games new again. I have taken pre-order and new copies off the table. Used or heavily discounted is still on the table of course. I suggest everybody else who is disgusted by this do the same.

 

[Jaga Jazzist]

darling

honey.

stop doing this you fucking prick

 

[Knobody13]

Right, so got some interesting responses, sorry if I don't reply to all of them, don't really have the time right now, but hopefully I will get back to those who I've missed.

Congratulations with your opinion and all, but there was ZERO reason to make a new thread about it. Your opinion brings nothing new to the table, it could aswell be a post in the already well established Moviebob ME3 thread.
Why isnt this locked?

I did explain why but guess you didn't read it. I've read the other threads but felt that the argument got overshadowed by people wanting a happier ending and the like. There didn't seem to be any look into the source of this discontent, such as the personalisation effect of the games that was negated by the ending, and how this affects our perceptions of art, of games as art, and the relationship between the audience and artist. And I didn't want that being swamped in the hundreds of other posts. Hope that answered your question.

That is a terrible reason, tbh. You are basically saying that you feel your opinion is more important than others, and wanted a special place to put it, so people would read it.

Yes. I don't understand your point.

You act as if your opinion deserves a thread, as if your opinion is something special, and it deserves an audience more than other people's opinions, which is a bit arrogant.
Every person who has made another Mass Effect 3 ending thread, is just another schmuck like you, who thinks their opinion is all-high and mighty, whereas others are just common rubble saying "Bioware bad!", whereas your opinion is simply so immaculate that it deserves it's own thread.
It's arrogant, what you are doing.

Personal attacks like 'schmuck' aren't very becoming, and does go to show that maybe some opinions are more important than others after all. And so what if I wanted to make my own thread. I'm pretty happy with it. I got say my piece and I've received more replies for it than I know what to do with. I mean, you're replying to them too aren't you? I still don't see what your point is. If no one ever thought they point was important they would never say anything.

It is incredibly arrogant to assume, that your opinion is worth more than others'. My point is that you're arrogant for thinking your opinion is worth more than others. And yes i am replying to your posts, but for all the wrong reasons. I'm not argumenting against or with you, about what your opinion is about, rather, i'm saying your are incredibly arrogant for making a thread like that, and even now, saying that some opinions are worth more than others'.

It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I believe you should look up "irony." Wanting to express your opinion, does not imply that you think its inherently better. It is simply your opinion. Wan'ting to compare and debate your opinion with other or, heaven forbid, thinking you might be right, does not constitute and act of arrogance. If you didn't think your argument was right, why would you hold it in the first place? You are creating the most ridiculous strawman argument, and quite frankly, it makes you look like an idiot.

darling

honey.

stop doing this you fucking prick

Don't stop that; its fucking hilarious.

 

[thebighead01]

IF anyone cares this is my opinion from my own thread on the subject.

Does anyone else feel like the critic responses to the ME3 Ending debacle seem a little out of touch? Every critic has, to some extent, said that we should respect Bioware's ending. They said we have unreal expectations and nothing could have appeased us. I don't think that's true, and I don't think that's fair. Yes, most of these arguments are right in THEORY; a writer should not have to change their art to conform to audience expectations. Let me be 100 percent clear. I believe that, but what if you offered to buy an artists next piece, before having seen or heard it. You are a big fan of their art. The artist is a beautiful painter and has always delivered stunningly detailed, imaginative, color rich paintings; you see no risk in buying the next one. The artist even shows you a preview of the next painting, to get your mouth watering. He has only finished the top half of the painting, so far, but it looks great. Then he says its done, and he mails you the finished product. You open it up and the bottom half, of the painting is a bunch of stick figures drawn in crayon. The top half that you were shown, is still there. You like the top half; you just wish it was finished. Why is the bottom half filled with stick figures? They have no relation to the rest of the painting, and none of the artists other work was like this?

I feel like none of the critics on the site, understand this. Its not that the artists decided to go in a risky new direction that the masses aren't ready for. Bioware didn't finish their game. They half @$$ed it and used an ending that had no continuity with the rest of the story. It is textbook Deus Ex Machina(literally). Do i think fans are whiny and over entitled? Yes. Do i think Bioware has a legal obligation to change the ending? No. Would I like then to be accountable for their bull$#1t? yes.

Well if it means anything I do. You make a valid point. I've heard time and again that I should have known about the ending and simply not bought the game, and that it's my fault for buying it in the first place. Well I ask how can I found out about the ending without buying and playing the game. It's like they want us to go search the web, find out the ending and then buy the game. Ruins the story and the art being delivered doesn't it?

I think what's most caught most people by surprise is that we know that Bioware are better than this. They have been a shining example of writing in gaming which makes the ending so disappointing. It may be true that the ending may have never met with expectation, there's a difference between disappointing an audience and enraging them. If you're enraging them then something has gone horribly wrong.

As for the critics...well most come from artistic backgrounds (e.g studying literature) so it's probably why they are more on the side of preserving Bioware's artistic integrity.

 

[thebighead01]

darling

honey.

stop doing this you fucking prick

Don't see what's so offensive about that sweetheart

 

[thebighead01]

darling

honey.

stop doing this you fucking prick

Don't stop that; its fucking hilarious.

Lol, thanks for the support

 

[Dr Jones]

Right, so got some interesting responses, sorry if I don't reply to all of them, don't really have the time right now, but hopefully I will get back to those who I've missed.

Congratulations with your opinion and all, but there was ZERO reason to make a new thread about it. Your opinion brings nothing new to the table, it could aswell be a post in the already well established Moviebob ME3 thread.
Why isnt this locked?

I did explain why but guess you didn't read it. I've read the other threads but felt that the argument got overshadowed by people wanting a happier ending and the like. There didn't seem to be any look into the source of this discontent, such as the personalisation effect of the games that was negated by the ending, and how this affects our perceptions of art, of games as art, and the relationship between the audience and artist. And I didn't want that being swamped in the hundreds of other posts. Hope that answered your question.

That is a terrible reason, tbh. You are basically saying that you feel your opinion is more important than others, and wanted a special place to put it, so people would read it.

Yes. I don't understand your point.

You act as if your opinion deserves a thread, as if your opinion is something special, and it deserves an audience more than other people's opinions, which is a bit arrogant.
Every person who has made another Mass Effect 3 ending thread, is just another schmuck like you, who thinks their opinion is all-high and mighty, whereas others are just common rubble saying "Bioware bad!", whereas your opinion is simply so immaculate that it deserves it's own thread.
It's arrogant, what you are doing.

Personal attacks like 'schmuck' aren't very becoming, and does go to show that maybe some opinions are more important than others after all. And so what if I wanted to make my own thread. I'm pretty happy with it. I got say my piece and I've received more replies for it than I know what to do with. I mean, you're replying to them too aren't you? I still don't see what your point is. If no one ever thought they point was important they would never say anything.

It is incredibly arrogant to assume, that your opinion is worth more than others'. My point is that you're arrogant for thinking your opinion is worth more than others. And yes i am replying to your posts, but for all the wrong reasons. I'm not argumenting against or with you, about what your opinion is about, rather, i'm saying your are incredibly arrogant for making a thread like that, and even now, saying that some opinions are worth more than others'.

It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I believe you should look up "irony." Wanting to express your opinion, does not imply that you think its inherently better. It is simply your opinion. Wan'ting to compare and debate your opinion with other or, heaven forbid, thinking you might be right, does not constitute and act of arrogance. If you didn't think your argument was right, why would you hold it in the first place? You are creating the most ridiculous strawman argument, and quite frankly, it makes you look like an idiot.

There is nothing ironic about what I've said, I think YOU should look up the word irony..
Also: I never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever said that wanting to debate one's opinion with other is arrogance, read my arguments. It is, however, arrogant to start a new thread (Which has already been done to death, mind you) cause one thinks oneself's argument is superior to others, or atleast more deserving of an audience.
That is arrogant.

 

[thebighead01]

The ending of ME3 showdown is going to be interesting:

Do you have BioWare, whom wishes to hang on to their "created artistic" game and won't change it: at the risk of losing future customers.

Or does BioWare realize that they are a just business and realize that sometimes fixing something that as generally viewed upon is broken, and should be changed to keep your loyal fan-base, loyal.


I'm not saying I'll never buy another BioWare game again, but I can say 100% I'll never buy one of their games new again. I have taken pre-order and new copies off the table. Used or heavily discounted is still on the table of course. I suggest everybody else who is disgusted by this do the same.

It does put them in a difficult position granted. With Ubisoft for example I try to avoid buying their games or I make sure I buy on the cheap because of how offensive their DRM is (and yes, I have been in situations where I have been playing Assassin's Creed and it's cut off on me because I was having internet issues, how annoying). I hated the ending of Lost (guess I have a problem with endings :/) even though I loved the show. Now I'm very cautious in investing time in any series that claims to have a long standing story arch like that. But I guess it's a decision Bioware has to make. It's just that something horrible obviously happened to have created such an ending.

 

[Zen Toombs]

Interesting view, it probably should have been put into one of the several threads involving MovieBob. I do appreciate what you've said, but I also don't feel that it will have any sort of effect on Moviebob. He as OPINIONS, in case you didn't know.

So just because you can't change someone's mind you should never speak out? That is a dangerous way of think mate. I know he probably wouldn't read it, or even care what I have to say, I just wanted to say it that's all.

Calm down, I'm on your side here. That isn't quite what I meant - I more meant that we are getting oversaturated with repeat and almost-repeat threads, and this adds to them. I appreciate what you've said, but it would likely have been better if you had just posted on one of the other threads of this type. I was also making a little bit of fun on Moviebob.

 

[thebighead01]

Right, so got some interesting responses, sorry if I don't reply to all of them, don't really have the time right now, but hopefully I will get back to those who I've missed.

Congratulations with your opinion and all, but there was ZERO reason to make a new thread about it. Your opinion brings nothing new to the table, it could aswell be a post in the already well established Moviebob ME3 thread.
Why isnt this locked?

I did explain why but guess you didn't read it. I've read the other threads but felt that the argument got overshadowed by people wanting a happier ending and the like. There didn't seem to be any look into the source of this discontent, such as the personalisation effect of the games that was negated by the ending, and how this affects our perceptions of art, of games as art, and the relationship between the audience and artist. And I didn't want that being swamped in the hundreds of other posts. Hope that answered your question.

That is a terrible reason, tbh. You are basically saying that you feel your opinion is more important than others, and wanted a special place to put it, so people would read it.

Yes. I don't understand your point.

You act as if your opinion deserves a thread, as if your opinion is something special, and it deserves an audience more than other people's opinions, which is a bit arrogant.
Every person who has made another Mass Effect 3 ending thread, is just another schmuck like you, who thinks their opinion is all-high and mighty, whereas others are just common rubble saying "Bioware bad!", whereas your opinion is simply so immaculate that it deserves it's own thread.
It's arrogant, what you are doing.

Personal attacks like 'schmuck' aren't very becoming, and does go to show that maybe some opinions are more important than others after all. And so what if I wanted to make my own thread. I'm pretty happy with it. I got say my piece and I've received more replies for it than I know what to do with. I mean, you're replying to them too aren't you? I still don't see what your point is. If no one ever thought they point was important they would never say anything.

It is incredibly arrogant to assume, that your opinion is worth more than others'. My point is that you're arrogant for thinking your opinion is worth more than others. And yes i am replying to your posts, but for all the wrong reasons. I'm not argumenting against or with you, about what your opinion is about, rather, i'm saying your are incredibly arrogant for making a thread like that, and even now, saying that some opinions are worth more than others'.

It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I believe you should look up "irony." Wanting to express your opinion, does not imply that you think its inherently better. It is simply your opinion. Wan'ting to compare and debate your opinion with other or, heaven forbid, thinking you might be right, does not constitute and act of arrogance. If you didn't think your argument was right, why would you hold it in the first place? You are creating the most ridiculous strawman argument, and quite frankly, it makes you look like an idiot.

There is nothing ironic about what I've said, I think YOU should look up the word irony..
Also: I never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever said that wanting to debate one's opinion with other is arrogance, read my arguments. It is, however, arrogant to start a new thread (Which has already been done to death, mind you) cause one thinks oneself's argument is superior to others, or atleast more deserving of an audience.
That is arrogant.

Nope, I simply said that I felt this particular argument was being made or heard because it is getting swallowed up with the fan rage and demands for a happy ending and all that. My argument was based more on the examination of said rage and change in relationship between audience and artist. To be fair I am right. It's not being looked at, even though it should be. Games are art, but a relatively new form of art and with that comes changes to that relationship. If you can find me any thread/threads looking into that, and compare it to all the other fan rage ME endings then please show me. I welcome it.

 

[Knobody13]

well my reply got deleted somehow, but OP replied for me. So i guess its not a big deal.

 

[Crimm323]

at the moment games are not art...games are a product made by companies and sold in mass to people..like toasters or a ceiling fan..now if you are going to call games art the just like art we can have critical thoughts about ga,e and voice our opinion and our dislikes also if the product like a toaster is not satisfactory like a toster making ice cubes then yes we have every right to complain about this product...the problem everyone has with the ending is that the ending is so vastly different from the whole mass effect series and that since the ending are 95 percent the same and with only a 5 percent differnece(the kid says what the differances are...why are they just telling us that and not showing us) ...why build up the fact that choices have weight in the game and at the end all choices we have made mean nothing and why do people not have a problem with this.

 

[Dr Jones]

Nope, I simply said that I felt this particular argument was being made or heard because it is getting swallowed up with the fan rage and demands for a happy ending and all that. My argument was based more on the examination of said rage and change in relationship between audience and artist. To be fair I am right. It's not being looked at, even though it should be. Games are art, but a relatively new form of art and with that comes changes to that relationship. If you can find me any thread/threads looking into that, and compare it to all the other fan rage ME endings then please show me. I welcome it.

Then the thread should be called "A spectators view: Mass Effect 3 fans and rage", or "Analysis of the Mass Effect 3 ragefandom" or even "Mass Effect 3, and are video games really art?", but tbh, this thread has already been made. Your post and opinions is very much like Jim Sterling's, you could post it in response to his video, where he basically says the same (games are art, can be changed, yadda yadda).

 

[thebighead01]

Calm down, I'm on your side here. That isn't quite what I meant - I more meant that we are getting oversaturated with repeat and almost-repeat threads, and this adds to them. I appreciate what you've said, but it would likely have been better if you had just posted on one of the other threads of this type. I was also making a little bit of fun on Moviebob.

Fair enough Zen Toombs. Sorry if my gratefulness for your opinion wasn't put forward. I understand your point, and you're not the first to bring it up, but here we are I guess. And for a thread that maybe a repeat I think it's doing quite well ^^

I honestly didn't feel that the relationship that Bioware created with it's fans and it's art hasn't really been addressed yet. People here pretty much agree that games are art, or at least can be art, but sometimes don't seem to know how it can be art, or at least what makes it different as art in its own right. That difference has created this very situation.

And as for MovieBob, well I'm actually a big fan. Love his stuff. Go to Screwattack to watch his over show too. Just don't know why he would weigh in on this when he has said he's never played the games. Not that he isn't entitled to his opinion, just thought it odd that's all.

 

[Del-Toro]

His main argument is that because we are not the creators of the art we have no right but this isn't true. Among all the arguments this one just doesn't seem to be mentioned. We also made that art too.

Unlike any other medium games allow us to BE the protagonist in the story. The story, the world unfolds around us, reacts to us, we are not observers. This is especially true with a series like Mass Effect because unlike a lot of other games the player is given CHOICE. And this is the point. It is this choice that allows us to not only shape our world, but also the story that's being told.

I'm not sure if the Anti-Change ending camp has realised but people refer to Shepard as MY Shepard. This is an important point, and what underpins the experience that Bioware was selling. It was each our own story. Bioware created the universe, but allowed us to choose which path to take and to deal with the consequences of said choices and to carry this over across games. The ending they made does not do this.

Now I'm not asking for a happy ending; that would suck. Personally I think it would go against the tone of the series and a bleak ending like the one given is narratively more interesting. The ending given however has no closure, had blasted holes in it's plot turning it to Swiss cheese, and showed no consequences for our choices. We never got to see the end of OUR story, the one that WE created with Bioware.

Wrong. None of that aspect of the game is unprecedented. Nothing about the game itself changes drastically based on your choices, instead, all that changes is the specific combination you see of pre-made story points the developers put into the game. Literature had something like this before the videogame as we know it today, it was called the Choose Your Own Adventure novel. Like in Mass Effect, at certain points in the story the reader would be offered a choice, which ostensibly was to affect the flow of the story and maybe even the conclusion, just like in the Mass Effect games but, obviously, less advanced. The reader got an experience based on their calls and often told from their perspective, but the legwork had been done for them. Each ending and twist was the author's vision, laid out for the reader for them to craft an experience. Nonetheless, the art itself was not the reader's, it was the author's. The writer of a CYOA had as much claim to their work as Dickens had to his, completely regardless of the increased interactivity. That's all Mass Effect is. If, say, Half Life is a standard novel, Mass Effect is a CYOA that got lazy at the end, and the user has no claim on the art itself.

 

[thebighead01]

at the moment games are not art...games are a product made by companies and sold in mass to people..like toasters or a ceiling fan..now if you are going to call games art the just like art we can have critical thoughts about ga,e and voice our opinion and our dislikes also if the product like a toaster is not satisfactory like a toster making ice cubes then yes we have every right to complain about this product...the problem everyone has with the ending is that the ending is so vastly different from the whole mass effect series and that since the ending are 95 percent the same and with only a 5 percent differnece(the kid says what the differances are...why are they just telling us that and not showing us) ...why build up the fact that choices have weight in the game and at the end all choices we have made mean nothing and why do people not have a problem with this.

Interesting points Crimm323 but except for one; at the moment games ARE art and have been for sometime, Ocarina of Time was one of my first games and I consider that to be a magnificent piece of art and that was made in the 90s. But having said that I understand how subjective the whole thing is, so if you feel it isn't, that's ok so we'll leave it to rest there .

But the main point that you made, that inconsistency with the rest of the series that the ending has, that's one of the reasons it attracted so much hate. That standard that we were so used to from Bioware sudden dropped and at the most crucial point too. Guess some people just don't realise that.

 

[DRTJR]

I'm tired of Mass Effect discussions. We should instead focus on Wasteland 2. It's only got 8 days left to donate =O

I agree with this statement. nice Frank Horrigan avatar btw


I Think that Jim(Of the Jimquisition) is totally in the right, It's Bioware's to do with as they please, but the fans have the right to complain about the product they bought.

 

[thebighead01]

OP

Wrong. None of that aspect of the game is unprecedented. Nothing about the game itself changes drastically based on your choices, instead, all that changes is the specific combination you see of pre-made story points the developers put into the game. Literature had something like this before the videogame as we know it today, it was called the Choose Your Own Adventure novel. Like in Mass Effect, at certain points in the story the reader would be offered a choice, which ostensibly was to affect the flow of the story and maybe even the conclusion, just like in the Mass Effect games but, obviously, less advanced. The reader got an experience based on their calls and often told from their perspective, but the legwork had been done for them. Each ending and twist was the author's vision, laid out for the reader for them to craft an experience. Nonetheless, the art itself was not the reader's, it was the author's. The writer of a CYOA had as much claim to their work as Dickens had to his, completely regardless of the increased interactivity. That's all Mass Effect is. If, say, Half Life is a standard novel, Mass Effect is a CYOA that got lazy at the end, and the user has no claim on the art itself.

Wrong. You don't have interactivity with a book. That's where you analogy fails. This was the point I was trying to make. Games can be art, but not in the same context as other mediums because it works in different ways. Games allow interaction, freedom of movement (relatively speaking), customisation, etc, that creates a personalisation effect not seen in any other medium. There is no book that can do this.

 

[Del-Toro]

OP

Wrong. None of that aspect of the game is unprecedented. Nothing about the game itself changes drastically based on your choices, instead, all that changes is the specific combination you see of pre-made story points the developers put into the game. Literature had something like this before the videogame as we know it today, it was called the Choose Your Own Adventure novel. Like in Mass Effect, at certain points in the story the reader would be offered a choice, which ostensibly was to affect the flow of the story and maybe even the conclusion, just like in the Mass Effect games but, obviously, less advanced. The reader got an experience based on their calls and often told from their perspective, but the legwork had been done for them. Each ending and twist was the author's vision, laid out for the reader for them to craft an experience. Nonetheless, the art itself was not the reader's, it was the author's. The writer of a CYOA had as much claim to their work as Dickens had to his, completely regardless of the increased interactivity. That's all Mass Effect is. If, say, Half Life is a standard novel, Mass Effect is a CYOA that got lazy at the end, and the user has no claim on the art itself.

Wrong. You don't have interactivity with a book. That's where you analogy fails. This was the point I was trying to make. Games can be art, but not in the same context as other mediums because it works in different ways. Games allow interaction, freedom of movement (relatively speaking), customisation, etc, that creates a personalisation effect not seen in any other medium. There is no book that can do this.

I'd say my analogy actually holds up pretty well. The point I think you missed is that any choice you have, and what those choices are, is all within the framework and from among the selection that was made by the developers, or author, as the case may be. That doesn't change because you get to pick which chest high wall you shoot from behind or can make your armour hot pink. That's why, of a game like Mass Effect, we say that we "get" an ending rather than "create" or "make" one because the creation and making was done by someone else and the ending you see is based on what you chose of the choices offered to you. You can't claim any ownership on what the selections were and what they resulted in because you had no hand in their creation. The guy who arranges the pictures in an art gallery can't claim an artistic credit on the paintings thus displayed. If you make a mix tape, then unless you personally were in the recording studio with a tamborine or other instrument playing then you can't claim to have helped make the music, and if you don't have a hand in crafting a videogame (programming, designing, I mean,that doesn't include suggestions and feedback) then you can't lay claim on the art itself.