MOVIEBOB you're wrong about the Mass Effect Ending! The art is ours as well as theirs.

[RaikuFA]

Congratulations with your opinion and all, but there was ZERO reason to make a new thread about it. Your opinion brings nothing new to the table, it could aswell be a post in the already well established Moviebob ME3 thread.
Why isnt this locked?

I did explain why but guess you didn't read it. I've read the other threads but felt that the argument got overshadowed by people wanting a happier ending and the like. There didn't seem to be any look into the source of this discontent, such as the personalisation effect of the games that was negated by the ending, and how this affects our perceptions of art, of games as art, and the relationship between the audience and artist. And I didn't want that being swamped in the hundreds of other posts. Hope that answered your question.

That is a terrible reason, tbh. You are basically saying that you feel your opinion is more important than others, and wanted a special place to put it, so people would read it.

In other words, TC just wants attention.

I say this should be locked.

 

[Rascalian]

i wasn't planning on posting anything to to this thread because of the poor, proverbial horse being beaten to death, but having read all three pages of this thread i have decided to drop my two cents into the fountain.

i have played all three games, completed all the DLC and grew to love the series. was i happy with the ending? in all honesty...yes, because prior to the ending rolling out before my bloodshot eyes, i was still reeling from the endings of character arcs that took place way before the actual ending.

my older brother was doing what a surprising amount of people were doing by marathoning the first two games in order to be ready for the 3rd game. he called me one night during his time with the first game to tell me that Wrex had just been shot and killed by Ashley. i could tell by his voice that he was actually shocked and he asked me if he should reload and do it differently. i initially wanted to tell him yes because of Wrex's role in the second game but i didn't because it would insure him of a totally different experience than mine.

the first time i spoke with Mordin in ME2, i didn't like him at all...so cold and calculated, but by the time his story arc ended in ME3, he was one of my favorite characters and i will openly admit that tears welled up in my eyes when he...did what he did (in the off chance that someone who hasn't played the games and wants to still play them is reading through this thread, i won't spoil it) and these are just two examples of the differences the player can experience in the same games.

my point is, i didn't mind the ending because the journey itself was amazing. Bioware said that choices made would change the game universe and they delivered. i became emotionally invested in what happened to squadmates (except Jack...never liked her) and i was rocked by more than a couple of their demises/destinies/what-have-you. very few games have ever accomplished this, in my quarter century of gaming. i recognize this and am very thankful for this series. it is because of this that i am not one of the many crying foul on Bioware. call me a fanboy if you must, but seeing as how almost all the ME fanboys (and fangirls) are acting like they just had the dog shot while someone urinated in their Cheerios, i would ask not to be lumped in with them.

thanks for reading. i am now going to get on with my life, knowing that no matter what happens, i played three amazing games.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Thanks for proving my point Atmos Duality. Appreciate it darling

Then I must assume your point was "I knew there were a dozen topics, and made one solely to spite everyone". Because that's all that's been proved here, darlin'.

 

[Krion_Vark]

Also, again, let me repeat this to be as clear as possible, all that is needed is CLOSURE. The ending didn't offer that. It created more questions than answers, and ultimate failed to deliver on the very game mechanic it had built its franchise on, choice and consequences.

Choice and Consequence of the ending.
Blue: Choice: Save everything take control of the reapers. Consequence: End the cycles.
Red: Choice: Kill ALL synthetics. Consequence: EDI and the Geth both die.
Green: Choice: Synthesize synthetics with organics. Consequence: Everyone becomes a cyborg.

I think you missed the point of the ending.

No really though I thought the ending was well done minus it providing closure.

No, these endings would have been reached regardless of any previous choice made. That's the point. You killed Wrex in the first game: Red, blue or green ending, you saved him: red, blue or green ending. No matter what you did everyone will end up in the same place.

And as for the consequences of said endings: the plot holes in the ending create a lack of closure (such as how everyone made it out with the Normandy) not only conflict with the the 'choice' made at the end, and coupled with what I said above only negate any sense of choice and consequence that the series was based on.

In any case I'm glad you liked the ending, and that you took something good out of it. Personally I'm not against the concept behind the ending, nor the bleakness of it. It's the execution of it that I hate. For a series that was so loving crafted it feels like they spent as long to make the ending as it took to play through it.

Okay lets take a real world group of choices.

Lets say High School. Your friends invite you to go out to a party for a night. You can either accept or decline. You decline. Two of your friends then die due to one of them driving drunk.
A year later you graduate.
Your choice on going out to party plays no role in whether or not you graduate. Neither does your friends dying. Same with the ending to ME3.
Something I did notice though was as you are playing through ME3 during the dream sequences who you lose will actually come back and say Commander Shepard. Over and over. THAT is where that comes into play. It comes into play in the Psyche of Shepard. Killing one person will not change the outcome of a war that has billions fighting in it. It will however change how a few people react to that outcome.

There are small things throughout the game that change how your game is tailored to how you played. Its the fact that they play no significant role in the main story is what have you so angry. But they do have a role in the game. They have a role in how YOUR Shepard is.

 

[Ham Blitz]

Also, again, let me repeat this to be as clear as possible, all that is needed is CLOSURE. The ending didn't offer that. It created more questions than answers, and ultimate failed to deliver on the very game mechanic it had built its franchise on, choice and consequences.

Choice and Consequence of the ending.
Blue: Choice: Save everything take control of the reapers. Consequence: End the cycles.
Red: Choice: Kill ALL synthetics. Consequence: EDI and the Geth both die.
Green: Choice: Synthesize synthetics with organics. Consequence: Everyone becomes a cyborg.

I think you missed the point of the ending.

No really though I thought the ending was well done minus it providing closure.

No, these endings would have been reached regardless of any previous choice made. That's the point. You killed Wrex in the first game: Red, blue or green ending, you saved him: red, blue or green ending. No matter what you did everyone will end up in the same place.

And as for the consequences of said endings: the plot holes in the ending create a lack of closure (such as how everyone made it out with the Normandy) not only conflict with the the 'choice' made at the end, and coupled with what I said above only negate any sense of choice and consequence that the series was based on.

In any case I'm glad you liked the ending, and that you took something good out of it. Personally I'm not against the concept behind the ending, nor the bleakness of it. It's the execution of it that I hate. For a series that was so loving crafted it feels like they spent as long to make the ending as it took to play through it.

I know this isn't adding much to the argument, but I will have to state that some of the options are either not available or change based on war assets you have(though not greatly). For example:

Spoiler: Did You Know That...

If you have near the minimum amount of war assest possible, you are only given the "Destroy all non-organics" option, but it backfires and vaporizes everyone one, robotic and organic, and appears to vaporize anything caught in the explosions (which is pretty much everyone). No one even gets off the Normandy after it crash lands.

 

[burningdragoon]

I don't really agree with your stance, however I will say this: You can argue that Mass Effect is "our" art too under very loose definitions of "our" but even if you accept this premise, the amount of blood, sweat, and tears that "we" (quoted because of my stance on the "our" part) have put into the art are absolutely minuscule compared to the actual creators at BioWare. So there still are no grounds to really claim and significant ownership.

 

[thebighead01]

Nope, I simply said that I felt this particular argument was being made or heard because it is getting swallowed up with the fan rage and demands for a happy ending and all that. My argument was based more on the examination of said rage and change in relationship between audience and artist. To be fair I am right. It's not being looked at, even though it should be. Games are art, but a relatively new form of art and with that comes changes to that relationship. If you can find me any thread/threads looking into that, and compare it to all the other fan rage ME endings then please show me. I welcome it.

Then the thread should be called "A spectators view: Mass Effect 3 fans and rage", or "Analysis of the Mass Effect 3 ragefandom" or even "Mass Effect 3, and are video games really art?", but tbh, this thread has already been made. Your post and opinions is very much like Jim Sterling's, you could post it in response to his video, where he basically says the same (games are art, can be changed, yadda yadda).

Hmm, fair enough. I accept what you say here. The title was made in the heat of my hot nerd rage that came after seeing MovieBob's video (think I could make an erotic novel with those words).

 

[Gnoekeos]

Even though you were given the illusion of choice by every single thing you could do the game was programed and cast in iron before you even came near it. If that weren't the case you'd be able to choose your own words for "your Shepard" to say and the game would actually react to it. It does end up have a unique feel to you and maybe people around you but in the end its really more similar to a pick your own adventure book that has multiple paths that lead to the ending rather than one straight path and a lot of dead ends.

 

[thebighead01]

OP

Wrong. None of that aspect of the game is unprecedented. Nothing about the game itself changes drastically based on your choices, instead, all that changes is the specific combination you see of pre-made story points the developers put into the game. Literature had something like this before the videogame as we know it today, it was called the Choose Your Own Adventure novel. Like in Mass Effect, at certain points in the story the reader would be offered a choice, which ostensibly was to affect the flow of the story and maybe even the conclusion, just like in the Mass Effect games but, obviously, less advanced. The reader got an experience based on their calls and often told from their perspective, but the legwork had been done for them. Each ending and twist was the author's vision, laid out for the reader for them to craft an experience. Nonetheless, the art itself was not the reader's, it was the author's. The writer of a CYOA had as much claim to their work as Dickens had to his, completely regardless of the increased interactivity. That's all Mass Effect is. If, say, Half Life is a standard novel, Mass Effect is a CYOA that got lazy at the end, and the user has no claim on the art itself.

Wrong. You don't have interactivity with a book. That's where you analogy fails. This was the point I was trying to make. Games can be art, but not in the same context as other mediums because it works in different ways. Games allow interaction, freedom of movement (relatively speaking), customisation, etc, that creates a personalisation effect not seen in any other medium. There is no book that can do this.

I'd say my analogy actually holds up pretty well. The point I think you missed is that any choice you have, and what those choices are, is all within the framework and from among the selection that was made by the developers, or author, as the case may be. That doesn't change because you get to pick which chest high wall you shoot from behind or can make your armour hot pink. That's why, of a game like Mass Effect, we say that we "get" an ending rather than "create" or "make" one because the creation and making was done by someone else and the ending you see is based on what you chose of the choices offered to you. You can't claim any ownership on what the selections were and what they resulted in because you had no hand in their creation. The guy who arranges the pictures in an art gallery can't claim an artistic credit on the paintings thus displayed. If you make a mix tape, then unless you personally were in the recording studio with a tamborine or other instrument playing then you can't claim to have helped make the music, and if you don't have a hand in crafting a videogame (programming, designing, I mean,that doesn't include suggestions and feedback) then you can't lay claim on the art itself.

I'm interested to know why do you not included suggestions, feedback, forum discussons, etc as part of the video game making process. This greatly affected the ME series.

In other words, TC just wants attention.

I say this should be locked.

You didn't see all the replies to those posts did you RaikuFA? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and I'll just include it here. And yes I love the attention, get hot with it. It's the only way I can do the Mrs -.-

Right, so got some interesting responses, sorry if I don't reply to all of them, don't really have the time right now, but hopefully I will get back to those who I've missed.

Congratulations with your opinion and all, but there was ZERO reason to make a new thread about it. Your opinion brings nothing new to the table, it could aswell be a post in the already well established Moviebob ME3 thread.
Why isnt this locked?

I did explain why but guess you didn't read it. I've read the other threads but felt that the argument got overshadowed by people wanting a happier ending and the like. There didn't seem to be any look into the source of this discontent, such as the personalisation effect of the games that was negated by the ending, and how this affects our perceptions of art, of games as art, and the relationship between the audience and artist. And I didn't want that being swamped in the hundreds of other posts. Hope that answered your question.

That is a terrible reason, tbh. You are basically saying that you feel your opinion is more important than others, and wanted a special place to put it, so people would read it.

Yes. I don't understand your point.

You act as if your opinion deserves a thread, as if your opinion is something special, and it deserves an audience more than other people's opinions, which is a bit arrogant.
Every person who has made another Mass Effect 3 ending thread, is just another schmuck like you, who thinks their opinion is all-high and mighty, whereas others are just common rubble saying "Bioware bad!", whereas your opinion is simply so immaculate that it deserves it's own thread.
It's arrogant, what you are doing.

Personal attacks like 'schmuck' aren't very becoming, and does go to show that maybe some opinions are more important than others after all. And so what if I wanted to make my own thread. I'm pretty happy with it. I got say my piece and I've received more replies for it than I know what to do with. I mean, you're replying to them too aren't you? I still don't see what your point is. If no one ever thought they point was important they would never say anything.

It is incredibly arrogant to assume, that your opinion is worth more than others'. My point is that you're arrogant for thinking your opinion is worth more than others. And yes i am replying to your posts, but for all the wrong reasons. I'm not argumenting against or with you, about what your opinion is about, rather, i'm saying your are incredibly arrogant for making a thread like that, and even now, saying that some opinions are worth more than others'.

It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Nope, I simply said that I felt this particular argument was being made or heard because it is getting swallowed up with the fan rage and demands for a happy ending and all that. My argument was based more on the examination of said rage and change in relationship between audience and artist. To be fair I am right. It's not being looked at, even though it should be. Games are art, but a relatively new form of art and with that comes changes to that relationship. If you can find me any thread/threads looking into that, and compare it to all the other fan rage ME endings then please show me. I welcome it.

Then the thread should be called "A spectators view: Mass Effect 3 fans and rage", or "Analysis of the Mass Effect 3 ragefandom" or even "Mass Effect 3, and are video games really art?", but tbh, this thread has already been made. Your post and opinions is very much like Jim Sterling's, you could post it in response to his video, where he basically says the same (games are art, can be changed, yadda yadda).

Hmm, fair enough. I accept what you say here. The title was made in the heat of my hot nerd rage that came after seeing MovieBob's video (think I could make an erotic novel with those words).

 

[thebighead01]

Why won't this topic just end?

You've got Bioware releasing an Extended Cut DLC for free to help explain the ending (which is DLC that they already planned to release anyways), but they've already essentially said they will NOT be changing their existing endings, only clarifying them.

So why do these topics continue to persist? The "Take Back Mass Effect" movement has failed. You're not getting new endings, only clarification that was already planned from the start based on Tweets and info from Bioware employees. So why can't we just bury this topic already? Continuing to bemoan the fact that Bioware won't cave to your unreasonable demands to "change the ending or else" is only going to weaken your stance in the eyes of other gamers as it continues. Heck, judging from this thread, most of us are already sick of hearing it. How bad do you think it'll get when you're still ranting and raving about this in June or July? You're going to rapidly lose support from the non-ME-playing gamer community (which, contrary to your belief, is actually the majority) if you don't just settle down and wait for the DLC.

The only time-proven way to get a company to do what you want is to stop buying their products, and yet many of your fanbase have already admitted they've even pay for new DLC to change the endings, proving that they just don't get it. Don't like the fact that Bio won't change the ending? That's fine, but that's the way it is. You'll just have to tolerate it, or if you have the stomach for it, do what any sensible person would do and stop giving them your money.

Ahh CriticKitten, you fail to live by your cute name. You haven't actually read the thread have you. I haven't been demanding for a new ending, in fact I've even said I support what Bioware is doing with the Extended Ending DLC because I hope it leave their creative integrity intact while offering what players needed most: closure.

And the stop buy their products argument again. You can't know the ending of the game without first buying and playing it through. You can only adjust your purchasing decisions after the fact. And as for the fan base buying more DLC...last time I check I weren't their leader so I can't really control that. Not sure if I've seen anyone anyway say they will keep buying any DLC that Bioware release but whatever.

i enjoyed eating a big mac.
since i brought and therefore helped macdonald's big mac to become popular,
i have the right to hold a share on mcdonalds stock market.

[sub][sub] are you serious?[/sub][/sub]

That...that wasn't my point at all. It was about art and the relationship between audience and artist having changed because of what Bioware set up to do within the medium they chose. You think a Big Mac is art? Well guess I shouldn't judge art is subjective after all. I admire your courage in your choice rhizhim.

i wasn't planning on posting anything to to this thread because of the poor, proverbial horse being beaten to death, but having read all three pages of this thread i have decided to drop my two cents into the fountain.

i have played all three games, completed all the DLC and grew to love the series. was i happy with the ending? in all honesty...yes, because prior to the ending rolling out before my bloodshot eyes, i was still reeling from the endings of character arcs that took place way before the actual ending.

my older brother was doing what a surprising amount of people were doing by marathoning the first two games in order to be ready for the 3rd game. he called me one night during his time with the first game to tell me that Wrex had just been shot and killed by Ashley. i could tell by his voice that he was actually shocked and he asked me if he should reload and do it differently. i initially wanted to tell him yes because of Wrex's role in the second game but i didn't because it would insure him of a totally different experience than mine.

the first time i spoke with Mordin in ME2, i didn't like him at all...so cold and calculated, but by the time his story arc ended in ME3, he was one of my favorite characters and i will openly admit that tears welled up in my eyes when he...did what he did (in the off chance that someone who hasn't played the games and wants to still play them is reading through this thread, i won't spoil it) and these are just two examples of the differences the player can experience in the same games.

my point is, i didn't mind the ending because the journey itself was amazing. Bioware said that choices made would change the game universe and they delivered. i became emotionally invested in what happened to squadmates (except Jack...never liked her) and i was rocked by more than a couple of their demises/destinies/what-have-you. very few games have ever accomplished this, in my quarter century of gaming. i recognize this and am very thankful for this series. it is because of this that i am not one of the many crying foul on Bioware. call me a fanboy if you must, but seeing as how almost all the ME fanboys (and fangirls) are acting like they just had the dog shot while someone urinated in their Cheerios, i would ask not to be lumped in with them.

thanks for reading. i am now going to get on with my life, knowing that no matter what happens, i played three amazing games.

I appreciate your post Rascalian and as a fellow fan can appreciate even further where your coming from. A lot of the people who reply haven't played the games (MovieBob hasn't, which was why I was so puzzled when he weighed in on the argument).

But to your last point I will simply say this; why can't the journey and the destination be just as important? Why should it always be a choice between the two?

By the way, loved Mordin when I first met him, and how can you not like Jack?

 

[thebighead01]

Discussing why MovieBob was wrong and because of the approach that Bioware took in creating the game created a sense of personalisation that perhaps should shift our perceptions of the relationship between audience and artist and how this affects our definition of art and thus how a change in the ending is perfectly possible because of that sense of personalistion gives ownship to your Shepard and...Christ haven't I said this all already?

And how does this entitle you to new ending? You still haven't explained this.

DrVornoff, I have never once used the word entitled.

I never once used the words, "Christ, when is this bullshit gonna die?" Doesn't mean I'm not thinking it.

Wow, DrVornoff, shouldn't you be using your psychic powers to fight crime or perform in Vegas? I told you to find anytime I have used the word entitled. Not once have I said that. You failed and so infer that I must thinking it? Shame on you Doctor. I would have written a very stern letter to have you stricken off as a Doctor if it weren't for the fact that I like you so much.

Again you fail to understand the implicit change in the nature of the relationship between audience and artist that Bioware has created. If I haven't already I shall point you to FFHAuthor. Look for his posts, they explain it better than I ever could. Well anyway I hope you give it some thought.

Two things. First off, no. I want to hear it from you in your words.

Second, you think the only reason I don't agree with you is because I haven't thought about it? The word "arrogant" comes to mind.

Yep, arrogant, stubborn, domineering, handsome, all words that have been used to describe me.

I have explained it. I only pointed to FFHAuthor's posts because he was able to say it a lot more eloquently and go even deeper than I. He believed that the underlying shift the relationship between audience and artist that has caused this commotion had to do with the relationship between the narrative made by the Creator and the narrative created by the mechanics. His view was behind the games themselves as a medium, mine was slightly more audience focused, in terms of the experience received by the player, created by Bioware that because of the way the games were made and how the medium is created a much closer relationship between artist and audience, on in which we?ll see a lot more of in the future as the medium develops and becomes more immersive.

 

[Ricky 49]

i believe some people in this thread may be misinterpreting feedback as entitlement. there is nothing wrong with telling bioware or E.A that you dislike the ending for ME 3 and think it should different or it should be changed that is just feedback which can be very useful for development of anything.

notice moviebob didn't actually like but was a bit more understanding of the whole H.E.A.T movement for the green lantern (which is very similar to whats going on here) and got what he considered a good comic due to fan outrage at the story.

For my opinions with the new extended cut DLC that should be free (which i think it is but i don't know for sure) if its just a new ending, if it has more gameplay and new mission etc only then can they charge us for it like fallout 3's broken steel. anyway my feedback would be that should try not to disprove the indoctrination theory in the new DLC ending cause i think that is an awesome fan made interpretation of ME 3 ending (weather bioware intended that or not). I recommend everyone who thought that ME 3 ending was a bit disappointing to check it out there is some good videos on youtube that explains it.

so yeah if they disprove the indoctrination theory in the new dlc ending bioware better replace it with something awesome or i'm gonna be really disappointed with them.

again that is just feedback, if i wrote that in to bioware it's better for them to know what their fans think of bioware's products. because if they do things with the story that people are unhappy with then less people will buy their games in the future which is worst-case scenario for bioware.

 

[Zagzag]

Personally, I thought ME2 was shit. So, I've already cut ties to the franchise and have no real vested interest in this whole ME3 boondoggle.

However, unless you are actually part of the team that wrote ME3's story, you have absolutely ZERO say in the direction that they took the game.

If you think the ending was shit, then think it's shit. There's nothing wrong with that.
If you think it deserved better, then think it deserved better. There's nothing wrong with that.
If you think you're entitled to have them rewrite it, then you're Wrong.

By purchasing the game, you only got the right to play the game they made. Nothing more.

I still don't get how people like you are getting this so wrong. People like the OP and myself do not feel that we have a right to have the game rewritten. We do, however have a right to tell Bioware what we thought about the game they made for us, our community and others like it. What they choose to do is their business, but we should be able to talk about personally wanting a better ending (which is not us claiming we have a right to one) without the word "entitled" being flung around ambiguously, like it seems to every time anyone even mentions ME3.

 

[thebighead01]

big mac is not really art. but then again everything can be art and i bet if i recreated a big mac as a 'sculpture' and slap a known name on it, people would hunger to see it.

you fail to see one important thing.

the mass effect francise is more of a product. no matter how much artistic things you put in there it will always be a product.

thats the point.
this game or story was created to sell.
and they would only change it if they could sell it faster (a thing that artists like to do)

and just to be clear :

even if your statement tries to go all dali on us

Spoiler

"Without an audience, without the presence of spectators, these jewels would not fulfill the function for which they came into being. The viewer, then, is the ultimate artist." (Dali, 1959.)

i still do not see how much the 'audience' has had influence on the mass effect series.

what did they do?:

-the audience told bioware that this and that was tedious.
did they use some ideas of their fans to make it less tedious?
no, they didn't. they just removed it or simplyfied it (mako and resources).

- the audience created some concept art.
did they use concept art from their fans or even used some as basis for parts of their product?
no, they didn't. we would had a better looking tali that does not contradict their own lore, instead we have another smurf alien without the suit that had been established as 'important'.

the only thing the audience did was to say 'i like where this is going, continue please' with paying for the product.

thats all. you gave them money to continue with the story with the risk that it could go horribly, horribly wrong. and it could not get worse, could it?

I think I understand where you coming from rhizhim. If I've got that right you believe that the ME series is just a product and thus should be treated as such. Fair point. I don't agree with you but I respect where you're coming from.

Unfortunately living in a capitalist world means that in order to create art you need money. Not matter how many paintings an artist makes eventually he will need to sell some to continue making it. Does his art then become a product and cease being art? I don't agree. But if I'm right you believe that they created their art with the sole intention of creating a product? Hmmm maybe. Don't know if it diminishes it as art either. Nice quote by the way rhizhim.

 

[Lovely Mixture]

Wrong is kind of misleading in these discussions, considering this is all heavily based on opinion and this issue isn't as simple as it looks. But I do understand that you wished to convey your anger OP.

People need to stop throwing around the Mona Lisa comparison. It's erroneous.

Bioware created a culture with Mass Effect, that much is certain, and because of that culture it flourished and became popular. The question that separates everybody is: "Do the fans have a stake in this?"

Those that say yes, want the ending "that was promised." But what was promised? People interpreted the coverage of Mass Effect differently from when the first game was announced to the weeks leading up to the third game's release.

Those that say no, want the rights of the creator respected, but does this argument even have merit in a world were publishers can manhandle their way through the creative process?