MovieBob's thoughts on the ME3 ending controversy
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18 pages of hyperbole and emotionally-driven responses heaped on top of a handful of valid issues I could count on one hand. And I thought the Bioware board was crazy.
Also, I wish James Portnow could make his points without all that rhetoric in between, but you can't have everything, as Mass Effect 3 so clearly makes out. =P
Also, I wish James Portnow could make his points without all that rhetoric in between, but you can't have everything, as Mass Effect 3 so clearly makes out. =P
I just wanted my Shepard and crew to have an ending. The whole universe could blow up. Just explain it and don't throw in random things that make way less sense than they should. The problem? I got pretty lasers and a star child. Explain this and if it makes sense then I won't care anymore.
Hell, as a mental exercise i compiled everything that was wrong with Dead Rising 1's design choices in a simple list (about 10 items, mostly major league level idiocy) and it turns out Blue Castle Games thought the same way i did because they fixed most of the shit in DR2.Chronologist said:
Fans are not necessarily talking out of their asses and game design is not that counterintuitive a science. Common sense is a very important skill for a designer.
So yeah, i agree. I also envy your position, i'm currently way behind you in my training, right now re-learning C++ after i realized i had a very flawed methodology and deciding to start from scratch (by the way, if you can suggest a good book to make the jump from straight up programming to game programming, starting from an average knowledge of C++, you'd do me a great favour. Most of the time i go by suggestions on sites but so far i just ended up buying books that assumed too much or taught too little.)
I'm not actually proficient with C++, or any form of coding. I'm more of a world-builder, I focus on creating an interesting RPG setting with a detailed, yet easily accessible concept behind it, then create gameplay mechanics which reinforce both the setting and the major themes of the storyline. All I've really needed so far is a good grasp of the mathematics that goes into balancing combat and magic in an RPG, the ability to create Excel sheets with moderately complex formulas, and an understanding of narrative causality.Thammuz said:
It's more research and reading than anything else. That, and learning how to get people to work together separately but towards a common goal. Only it's dozens of people and it takes years.
Bob actually disagrees with you. To him, it's more than a game. ITS AN ART THAT MUST BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY AND IF YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT IT YOU ARE TARNISHING ITS ARTFULNESS.SirBryghtside said:
So I'm surprised you are on bobs side.
http://extra-credits.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2008
Good Read for you guys, I thought it was at least.
Courtesy Of Extra Credits
Good Read for you guys, I thought it was at least.
Courtesy Of Extra Credits
To be honest, I think that Bob is wrong.
Video games are being taken seriously. At least, as seriously as any form of electronic media probably can. Sure, there will always be the naysayers and people who try to detract from a form of media's artistic merit, but they are the minority. The video game industry is in fact one of the largest in the world, and rivals all other forms of media in terms of revenue generation and often times blows them out of the water. If the cases we've won in court over the past few years alongside the various admissions from some of the largest enemies of our beloved industry aren't enough to show that video games have gained headway then I don't know what is.
Now to discuss the subject at matter, Mass Effect 3 is a product. This isn't to say that it doesn't hold the capability to display artistic expression, as we all admit that many moments throughout the game showed the versatility of the emotions and thoughts that can be provoked by video games as a form of media. In the end, however, Mass Effect 3 is a product that was requisitioned by those who paid for it. Much like a great artist who paints a masterpiece for a loaded buyer, he must meet the demands of that purchaser or else he will be sent back to correct it. This isn't preventing the artist's opportunity for artistic expression, it simply puts a requirement on how he expresses it.
Us as gamers don't want to take away the rights of studios to create their own pieces of art and the ability therein to express themselves, we only want what we were promised; what we paid for. A game that concludes in as diverse a way as the trilogy let us tell our story, because it is OUR story, just so much as it is Bioware's.
We just want to see Mass Effect 3 fulfill it's potential, while meeting our own requests.
Video games are being taken seriously. At least, as seriously as any form of electronic media probably can. Sure, there will always be the naysayers and people who try to detract from a form of media's artistic merit, but they are the minority. The video game industry is in fact one of the largest in the world, and rivals all other forms of media in terms of revenue generation and often times blows them out of the water. If the cases we've won in court over the past few years alongside the various admissions from some of the largest enemies of our beloved industry aren't enough to show that video games have gained headway then I don't know what is.
Now to discuss the subject at matter, Mass Effect 3 is a product. This isn't to say that it doesn't hold the capability to display artistic expression, as we all admit that many moments throughout the game showed the versatility of the emotions and thoughts that can be provoked by video games as a form of media. In the end, however, Mass Effect 3 is a product that was requisitioned by those who paid for it. Much like a great artist who paints a masterpiece for a loaded buyer, he must meet the demands of that purchaser or else he will be sent back to correct it. This isn't preventing the artist's opportunity for artistic expression, it simply puts a requirement on how he expresses it.
Us as gamers don't want to take away the rights of studios to create their own pieces of art and the ability therein to express themselves, we only want what we were promised; what we paid for. A game that concludes in as diverse a way as the trilogy let us tell our story, because it is OUR story, just so much as it is Bioware's.
We just want to see Mass Effect 3 fulfill it's potential, while meeting our own requests.
I'm not gonna say Bob is missing the point or anything, but he misses the simplest fact in regards to similar situations like this (especially in the SW Prequel hatred).
Fans are angry, it's not complicated. Some will act mature and reason their debates. Some will go off their rocker and spam hate filled messages. Some will try and get the material in the hands of writers they consider more worthy. Some will start a move (RetakeMassEffect or whatever) which will contain any of the aforementioned people. Opinions can be united, but they are not 100% the same.
And ironically, that's what makes the situation quite complicated.
We then fall into the debate of "Rights of the Creator vs Rights of the Consumer/Reader/Player"
I argue in favor of the Rights of the Creator at most times, but I am incredibly sympathetic to the rights of the latter.
In this case, I actually don't respect the right of the "creator" (let's be reminded that the writers for Mass Effect have changed over time, so there is no "one creator"), because we weren't given what was promised (and then someone will argue "what we're we promised?). But I hesitate to ask for a change to the ending, I'd rather Bioware just get some good writers and try to understand what the fans want in the future.
Is asking for a change to the ending a bit heavy-handed? Maybe or maybe not. Is it unreasonable? Depends how you look at the situation, do you think this ending was the result of DLC haggling, writer incompetence, or misplaced feelings?
Also
If EA (or ANY publisher) demands changes during development, doesn't that instantly disqualify it as art under that definition? Why does Mass Effect need to be seen as art? Does it need to seen as art? Is artistic quality required for every videogame? etc
P.S.
Can someone explain the implication of KAPTAINmORGANnWo4life's use of the Extra Credits Picture (BTW, nice post Kaptain). I don't watch Extra Credits, but my sister does.
Fans are angry, it's not complicated. Some will act mature and reason their debates. Some will go off their rocker and spam hate filled messages. Some will try and get the material in the hands of writers they consider more worthy. Some will start a move (RetakeMassEffect or whatever) which will contain any of the aforementioned people. Opinions can be united, but they are not 100% the same.
And ironically, that's what makes the situation quite complicated.
We then fall into the debate of "Rights of the Creator vs Rights of the Consumer/Reader/Player"
I argue in favor of the Rights of the Creator at most times, but I am incredibly sympathetic to the rights of the latter.
In this case, I actually don't respect the right of the "creator" (let's be reminded that the writers for Mass Effect have changed over time, so there is no "one creator"), because we weren't given what was promised (and then someone will argue "what we're we promised?). But I hesitate to ask for a change to the ending, I'd rather Bioware just get some good writers and try to understand what the fans want in the future.
Is asking for a change to the ending a bit heavy-handed? Maybe or maybe not. Is it unreasonable? Depends how you look at the situation, do you think this ending was the result of DLC haggling, writer incompetence, or misplaced feelings?
Also
This is a REALLY shaky argument because raises the question "What is art?" For which the answer is incredibly different for each person.
If EA (or ANY publisher) demands changes during development, doesn't that instantly disqualify it as art under that definition? Why does Mass Effect need to be seen as art? Does it need to seen as art? Is artistic quality required for every videogame? etc
P.S.
Can someone explain the implication of KAPTAINmORGANnWo4life's use of the Extra Credits Picture (BTW, nice post Kaptain). I don't watch Extra Credits, but my sister does.
Bob is wrong. ME3 is not art, it is a product. EA marketed it as a product, BioWare developed it to be a product. Its a highly polished product with artistic merit, but it is not "art". As such, the product is defective (the ending) and the consumers of the product are requesting/demanding/begging that the ending be fixed to the level at which both EA and BioWare promised the product would have.
Now, now.. there is no reason to attack the man's weight. His arguments are horrible, attack those.Seanfall said:
holy shit, how could Bioware do this?
The fans have now destroyed the entire artistic Integrity of Videogames forever.
Bob was right, you entitled whiny douches have poisoned videogames 4EVAR!!!!!
just look at how this DLC completely destroys the Biowares Masterpiece!!!!!!!
http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Arrival
The fans have now destroyed the entire artistic Integrity of Videogames forever.
Bob was right, you entitled whiny douches have poisoned videogames 4EVAR!!!!!
just look at how this DLC completely destroys the Biowares Masterpiece!!!!!!!
http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Arrival
Dont you just love how Hyperbole and Generalizations can be used to make even the most stupid comments sound incredibly alarmist?
all i have to say about the endings is that they aren't really bad sure i never expected them to be great but the other 99% of the game was amazing and it really made me think of what i valued in the mass effect universe and besides the evidence that the ending are indoctrinations from the reapers is too strong to ignore (it should have been explained better granted)
the problem is really with the fans i think the idea that Shepard would marry tali and live on a far away planet was far to idealistic to even hope for its not really that the ending are bad its more that people did not get the ending that they wanted So now they decided to complain
the problem is really with the fans i think the idea that Shepard would marry tali and live on a far away planet was far to idealistic to even hope for its not really that the ending are bad its more that people did not get the ending that they wanted So now they decided to complain
On one hand, the ending didn't live up to the expectations Bioware had set.
On the other hand, it could just be that the level of expectations that the Mass Effect series had piled up so high that no ending could possibly satisfy the majority of players.
On the other hand, there are specific statements from Bioware about the ending which can be proven to be completely or mostly false.
On the other hand, changing the ending because of fan backlash may compromise Bioware's artistic integrity, and as a result, whatever fixed ending wouldn't really count.
On the other hand, the ending as it is may have been the product of Bioware already having compromised their artistic integrity to sell more DLC, in which case "fixing" the ending for free would be kind of an apology, and it would actually increase their artistic integrity.
On the other hand, the "artistic integrity vs gamer entitlement" argument may not hold up since video games are by definition interactive with the player, and particularly in a game like Mass Effect, the player should exert control over the way the story plays out.
On the other hand, it may be too big of a leap to extend that interactivity argument to requesting the creator to change the game after the fact, as the designer still determines to what degree the player has freedom, trying to strike an ideal balance between user freedom and narrative strength.
On the other hand, video games have a long history of changing after the fact. Patching bugs is changing the game after the fact, DLC is changing after the fact, and DLC was always going to happen, ending controversy or not. And if we can batch bugs in games, why can't we patch plot holes?
On the other hand, this just exacerbates the trend of console games being released in an incomplete or buggy state, the thought being that you'll just patch bugs (and release DLC that fills holes in the plot) afterwards.
I'm not sure where I stand.
On the other hand, it could just be that the level of expectations that the Mass Effect series had piled up so high that no ending could possibly satisfy the majority of players.
On the other hand, there are specific statements from Bioware about the ending which can be proven to be completely or mostly false.
On the other hand, changing the ending because of fan backlash may compromise Bioware's artistic integrity, and as a result, whatever fixed ending wouldn't really count.
On the other hand, the ending as it is may have been the product of Bioware already having compromised their artistic integrity to sell more DLC, in which case "fixing" the ending for free would be kind of an apology, and it would actually increase their artistic integrity.
On the other hand, the "artistic integrity vs gamer entitlement" argument may not hold up since video games are by definition interactive with the player, and particularly in a game like Mass Effect, the player should exert control over the way the story plays out.
On the other hand, it may be too big of a leap to extend that interactivity argument to requesting the creator to change the game after the fact, as the designer still determines to what degree the player has freedom, trying to strike an ideal balance between user freedom and narrative strength.
On the other hand, video games have a long history of changing after the fact. Patching bugs is changing the game after the fact, DLC is changing after the fact, and DLC was always going to happen, ending controversy or not. And if we can batch bugs in games, why can't we patch plot holes?
On the other hand, this just exacerbates the trend of console games being released in an incomplete or buggy state, the thought being that you'll just patch bugs (and release DLC that fills holes in the plot) afterwards.
I'm not sure where I stand.