Multi-pronged terrorist attack in Vienna - unfolding

[Seanchaidh]

Very skewed perception of the ME rooted in ignorance using a socialist worldview. You somehow managed to absolve the religion for not making more war than you think is justified. All interpretation, absolutely no grounding in reality. You'd be reading in tea leaves at this point and have no credibility to your analysis. There's nothing quantifiable for me to argue with, which was done on purpose.

Do you prefer the explanation that "A Jew is a soul, an Arab is a son of a whore", then?

 

[Iron]

Do you prefer the explanation that "A Jew is a soul, an Arab is a son of a whore", then?

I prefer something that isn't anecdotal. Very weak argument, really.
It goes to show you can't back any of your arguments up. You only have a socialist framework and no actual basis to it.

 

[Seanchaidh]

I prefer something that isn't anecdotal. Very weak argument, really.
It goes to show you can't back any of your arguments up. You only have a socialist framework and no actual basis to it.

Not sure what's socialist about noting the impact of sharing a language and common experience, but OK. Also, you didn't answer my question.

 

[Iron]

Not sure what's socialist about noting the impact of sharing a language and common experience, but OK.

I don't know if you're doing this on purpose. There's a whole anti-colonialist socialist paragraph in your argument. I can quote you:

and much they have in common is guerilla resistance to oppression by foreign empires dating back to at least the Ottoman Empire. Successful resistance. Glorified resistance-- watch Lawrence of Arabia for an example. The Islamic world has many linguistic and religious communities that have quite justifiably encouraged martyrdom entirely apart from any theological implications. And there is ongoing aggression from Israel, the United States, Soviet Union/Russia, China, and between various authoritarian regimes and their populations. It's not just a coincidence that Sayyid Qutb was brutalized in an Egyptian prison and then executed.

And the big virtue of this explanation is that it doesn't rely on a theological cause which, if it were doing what you say, predicts SO MUCH MORE historical violence than has actually happened. This explanation seems to much more accurately track with the timeline of events and the material conditions surrounding them.

My "Resistence", my Arab solidarity. Martyrdom apart from any theological implications...

edit: Also, not a single thing to back this up yet.

 

[Seanchaidh]

I don't know if you're doing this on purpose. There's a whole anti-colonialist socialist paragraph in your argument. I can quote you:


My "Resistence", my Arab solidarity. Martyrdom apart from any theological implications...

Yeah, that's not exactly capitalist exploitation and surplus value, is it?

edit: Also, not a single thing to back this up yet.

Do you not know what Qutbism is? Are you not familiar with the Arab revolt against the Ottoman Empire? Operation Ajax? The Afghan Mujahideen's resistance to occupation by the Soviet Union? The situation of Uyghur Muslims in China? In some places, nationalist resistance to foreign oppression hasn't been so successful, but in others it very much has-- the Arab Revolt against the Ottoman Empire and the Afghan Mujahideen's resistance to occupation by the Soviet Union come to mind. One of the aims of Zbigniew Brzezinski when supporting specifically the more religious resistance movements in Afghanistan was to inspire an Islamic Nationalism. So thanks for that, Zbiggy.

 

[Iron]

Yeah, that's not exactly capitalist exploitation and surplus value, is it?



Do you not know what Qutbism is? Are you not familiar with the Arab revolt against the Ottoman Empire? Operation Ajax? The Afghan Mujahideen's resistance to occupation by the Soviet Union? The situation of Uyghur Muslims in China? In some places, nationalist resistance to foreign oppression hasn't been so successful, but in others it very much has-- the Arab Revolt against the Ottoman Empire and the Afghan Mujahideen's resistance to occupation by the Soviet Union come to mind. One of the aims of Zbigniew Brzezinski when supporting specifically the more religious resistance movements in Afghanistan was to inspire an Islamic Nationalism. So thanks for that, Zbiggy.

It's an anti-colonialist socialist view which simultaneously manages to be colonialist and racist. Imagining that the Arab revolt, organized and funded by the British, was anything close to an organic and natural response is simply wrong. Without the British, the Arabs would not have "united" under Ottoman rule. It required the resources of the British to buy and convince several Arab tribes to join together and even then many Arab tribes remained loyal to the Turks.

I need time to remember, I had a pdf of a book about this lying around which I read like 5 years ago (Arab revolt). The Lawrence narrative is very simplistic and colonialist in nature. Even the nativist approach to Arab unity, upheld by the ideology of the MB, is a theological one. A response to the encroachment of western values over the traditional values of Islam in culture and law.

I think it's this one:
I don't have the pdf anymore on my PC, since I swapped PCs twice since then.

 

[Neuromancer]

Yeah, maybe we should have done a better job drawing borders and maybe helping the Middle East get on its feet rather than treating it as a colonialist playground.

 

[Seanchaidh]

It's an anti-colonialist socialist view which simultaneously manages to be colonialist and racist. Imagining that the Arab revolt, organized and funded by the British, was anything close to an organic and natural response is simply wrong.

Nothing about it needs to be organic or natural to support my argument. A common experience needn't be any of those things.

Even the nativist approach to Arab unity, upheld by the ideology of the MB, is a theological one. A response to the encroachment of western values over the traditional values of Islam in culture and law.

You seem to be ignoring that the torture and brutalization of the Muslim Brotherhood by their national authorities is the proposed explanation for the violence of Qutbism. Or perhaps I didn't make that sufficiently clear. Either way.

 

[Iron]

Nothing about it needs to be organic or natural to support my argument. A common experience needn't be any of those things.



You seem to be ignoring that the torture and brutalization of the Muslim Brotherhood by their national authorities is the proposed explanation for the violence of Qutbism. Or perhaps I didn't make that sufficiently clear. Either way.

You said it doesn't rely on a theological cause but Qutbism IS based on theology.

edit: Also the common experience argument is very much unsubstantiated, and I am certain it's a gross oversimplification and a revisionist attempt to create an Arab nationality by socialist anti-colonialist thinkers and/or scholars.

edit edit: Don't try to bullshit your way out of this.
You can't argue for a unified experience of the people in the "Arab nationality".
You can't argue basis for the MB is not theological.
You can't argue that sharing a language made the Arabs cooperate when they were under colonial rule. Libyans scarcely resisted European rule. Egyptians did not conspire with Syrians to overthrow the Turks. There was no inter-arab independent cooperation before the fall of the Turks and the fall of the subsequent puppet regimes installed by western powers.
You can't argue that the Islamic world has many linguistic and religious communities that have quite justifiably encouraged martyrdom entirely apart from any theological implications It's entirely a facricated claim.
Qutb was brutalized because he was a dissident, as are all dissidents treated under a socialist regime. In this case it was Egypt under Nassar, although I can argue it was more a pseudo-socialism, or a local-brew of socialism.

" And the big virtue of this explanation is that it doesn't rely on a theological cause which, if it were doing what you say, predicts SO MUCH MORE historical violence than has actually happened. "

Where are you getting this from? Who is the person that is feeding you this information which is absolutely detached from reality?

Not sure what's socialist about noting the impact of sharing a language and common experience, but OK. Also, you didn't answer my question.

The socialist framework is because this revisionist theory can be traced back to the intelligensia in the ME during the time when socialism was dominant in most regions.

 

[Crystal Violet]

You mean the theology of Islam or the consequences of it?
For the second: The fact that it has inspired a non-insignificant number of young men (and women, in rare cases) to take up arms against their country and murder civilians in terrorist attacks.

Of course, your average Muslim isn't responsible for these: I don't believe in collective responsibility. However, this is something that should cause a certain degree of soul searching and reflection for both Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

In 1970s Northern Ireland religious extremists were setting off car bombs and mortar attacks in England.
In 2016 Germany, Iranian-American David Ali Sonboly shot up a shopping mall after his recent conversion to Christianity. He was inspired by Anders Breiviv.
Countless Christian extremists in Scandinavia.
Countless Christian extremists in North America.

Young disenfranchised men can be swayed by all sorts of ideologies of violence if they think it can offer purpose. ISIS did not spring from nowhere. The Middle East could have been a Christian region and this would still be happening.

 

[Iron]

In 1970s Northern Ireland religious extremists were setting off car bombs and mortar attacks in England.
In 2016 Germany, Iranian-American David Ali Sonboly shot up a shopping mall after his recent conversion to Christianity. He was inspired by Anders Breiviv.
Countless Christian extremists in Scandinavia.
Countless Christian extremists in North America.

Young disenfranchised men can be swayed by all sorts of ideologies of violence if they think it can offer purpose. ISIS did not spring from nowhere. The Middle East could have been a Christian region and this would still be happening.

I count one case of (christian) religious extremism in Scandinavia, if I take Brevik as one.

 

[Crystal Violet]

I count one case of (christian) religious extremism in Scandinavia, if I take Brevik as one.

That's your ignorance, not mine. So I did a quick Google for you...

Sweden:

- Hijacking by the Croatian Nationalist Resistance
- Arson attacks against communist newspapers
- Stockholm Olympic Stadium bomb attacks by right-wing extremists
- Car bomb attack by right-wing extremist in Nacka
- Far-right sword attack at a school in Trollhättan...
...there's lots more in Sweden but you get the message...

I won't bother looking up Denmark and Norway again because I'm not Alexa.

 

[Crystal Violet]

I count one case of (christian) religious extremism in Scandinavia, if I take Brevik as one.

But wait I'm not letting you off that easily for being disingenuous. Even if I couldn't list off a bunch of famous incidents in Sweden alone after a short Google search my point would still stand. Young disenfranchised men are being recruited everywhere and Muslim countries with a history of American interference and militarising is nowday's particular (but decreasing form in lieu of right-wing terror).

It is dumb that people can look at the recent history and terrible state of the Middle East, wonder why it is producing as many terrorists and thinking "it must be that damned religion of peace lol"

 

[Seanchaidh]

You said it doesn't rely on a theological cause but Qutbism IS based on theology.

This might be a good point if Qutbism originated in the 7th century.

 

[Iron]

But wait I'm not letting you off that easily for being disingenuous. Even if I couldn't list off a bunch of famous incidents in Sweden alone after a short Google search my point would still stand. Young disenfranchised men are being recruited everywhere and Muslim countries with a history of American interference and militarising is nowday's particular (but decreasing form in lieu of right-wing terror).

It is dumb that people can look at the recent history and terrible state of the Middle East, wonder why it is producing as many terrorists and thinking "it must be that damned religion of peace lol"

Ok? Remind yourself I'm not contesting much of this. I thought Scani didn't have those attacks, and you showed me otherwise. I'm contesting Seanchaidh's very lopsided view, which he hadn't given anything to support.

This might be a good point if Qutbism originated in the 7th century.

I'm waiting for you to substantiate anything you wrote.

 

[Seanchaidh]

I'm waiting for you to substantiate anything you wrote.

You're free to go back and reread

 

[Iron]

You're free to go back and reread

All I read was an irrelevant cope here:

Do you prefer the explanation that "A Jew is a soul, an Arab is a son of a whore", then?

Literally nothing to back your claims up. Only hand-waving my criticism away.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Literally nothing to back your claims up. Only hand-waving my criticism away.

That's because your criticism is facile nonsense, hope that helps.

 

[Iron]

That's because your criticism is facile nonsense, hope that helps.

haha no. It's very much the reverse.
Even a cursory glance at this shows this.

Qutbism - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.wiktionary.org

Qutbism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And these are just the top results you'd get in a google search, invalidating your point. You have provided nothing of value so far regarding your nonsense of an argument.

 

[Crystal Violet]

Ok? Remind yourself I'm not contesting much of this. I thought Scani didn't have those attacks, and you showed me otherwise. I'm contesting Seanchaidh's very lopsided view, which he hadn't given anything to support.

Sorry. I thought you were being lazy and disingenuous because I had categorised you with the grifters. That's on me.