Murdering of innocents in video games (Morality topic, nothing to do with gaming)

[default]

First of all, I make these threads for fun. Emotion is the blood and fire of our lives, and it sure helps to make discussion and debating more interesting. Most of what to come is barely even my opinion, I'm just expressing it in an exhaggerated fashion. Yes, all of it is genuine, and yes, I dislike the amount of violence we see in modern games. No, I don't want them banned. Let's make that clear.

I went and bought Prototype a few days ago. I wanted something fun, hacky and slashy and fast-paced, and Prototype, with its incredible movement speed and fluidity of gameplay seemed like a good candidate.

I installed it and watched the first cutscene. I watched soldiers murder a young woman. It disturbed me, but it was clearly a hate-mongering storytelling technique. Hell, I would have used it myself if I was designing this game.

Prototype was an incredible game, and I was having tons of fun dodging cars in the street and leaping from building to building with this strange unnatural force.

A couple of hours later though I was running through a crowded street with my claws out. I turned to look at something, and as I did I accidentally hit the mouse button, and I hacked a girl in half. I stood there and looked at her dead face and mutilated body. This was meant to represent a person who lived and breathed, had a loving family, partner and maybe even children. She had hopes and dreams. Now she was gone. I looked with distaste at what I had done.

Now, think to your most basic senses of morality, your basic senses of compassion and empathy. Think of someone you love more than anything, be it your girlfriend, your mother, your partner or a close friend. Imagine if right now you were told they were dead, brutally killed. Their body is so badly damaged they are unrecognisable.

Now tell me, would you be willing to do this to anyone else? What in the fuck is the games industry doing? I realised why most people see games as distasteful and wrong. Some of them are fucking psychopathic.

There isn't even any consequence for killing civilians in Prototype. You even get a bloody score at the end of a battle.

How the hell is our Western society allowing this? We are meant to be CIVILISED. We care for others, we try our best to make sure everyone is well and happy.
I am Australian, and I am fucking glad that R 18+ games are banned in our country. THEY ARE UNNECESSARY. I'm actually supporting Michael Atkinson and Jack Thompson, even if I don't agree with some of their methods. At least they are trying to preserve taste and conservatism. There is NO need for violence such as this, the simulated killing of innocent people for no other reason than "They were there", or "For XP".

I'm looking at you, Modern Warfare 2. I don't care if it was central to the plot, it was still disgusting.

Now, before all you over-protective gamers get up in arms "It's just a game! It's not real!" studies have PROVEN that during gameplay the parts of your brain that handle aggression and emotion are stimulated. YOU are performing the action. It is different to watching it in a movie, although that is just as disgusting and wrong.

I have always been one to be very empathetic and in touch with his emotions, but I'm far from delicate. The SIMULATED murdering of innocents, however, is too much. It is beyond my capacity to understand why any would want to willingly DESIGN this into their game. They painstakingly rendered every hacked off limb and disemboweled corpse, and for what? So some psychopath can get off on it? For 'realism' and 'grittiness'?

I'm disgusted at our media industries at the moment, full of tasteless and talentless idiots quashing the rare gem who can make something beautiful and meaningful, because it won't 'appeal to the wider audience'.

Now, what are your views? Are you okay with killing civilians, if it is central to the story? I agree it was okay in Prototype, because that is how the story was set out to be like. Hell, they all turn into zombies anyway.

What do you think of the killing of innocents in video games?


Discuss.

(I apologise for the terrible writing, I don't have time to edit.)

EDIT:

Cheers for your input guys. You've all had intelligent and well formulated views on the subject, and I thank you. I always enjoy making these controversial emotion-fueled threads. Finally, something interesting to debate!!

I would like to point out I have no vendetta against this element within game design, I am only exasperated that it has become common practice to allow the killing of innocents, when it really has no place or purpose.

And to be fair, the sentence where I said I was 'horrified' was untrue. I was just a little disconcerted. Heck, I'm a writer. It's our job to exhaggerate.

In fact, I have exhaggerated everything, as emotions tend to do. I just found it a bit strange that this behaviour EVEN WITHIN A GAME is considered acceptable.

Listen guys, I play games the way I watch movies: As an EMOTIONAL CONNECTION experience. I hardly worry about gameplay at all, but instead focus on the way the story is told and how it represents itself. If I am emotionally connected to my character, or someone else within the game, I try to think how I would feel, how they would feel in that situation. That's what is so great about the art of storytelling, it allows us to experience these things.


I never said that someone who plays GTA or Prototype is gonna grab a katana and go out on a killing spree. Games do NOT have the power to affect the way we think or regard life, and I know that. Hell, I've profusely argued FOR this cause in the past.

Listen, I LOVE my violent games. I've finished or played DOOM 3, Call of Duty 4 and 5, Assassins Creed, Fallout 3 and countless other titles. There's nothing like the raw feeling of power you get by blowing an enemy's head off with a rifle.

My point is that the content of our video games are getting just a tad out of hand, don't you think? Think back to the days you played Zelda. Not a drop of blood to be seen, and they are regarded as some of the best videogames of all time. Doesn't this mean anything? We don't need all this senseless violence. We don't need violent media in general. But hell, I'm guilty as charged, I adore a good war movie. It's just part of our humanity. Violence is a part of this life, and we have to come to terms with it at some point. But not like this, don't you think?

 

[Macgyvercas]

Probably just overly sensitive in my opinion. Nothing wrong with that, it's just how you are.

Personally, I don't have a problem with morally reprehensable acts in games because games by nature are supposed to be an escape from the grind of every day life. They let us do things we would never dream of doing in the real world. They force us to question our motives for performing said acts in game. And they give us an emotional experience like no other medium can.

In short, I wouldn't change a god damn thing.

 

[Irridium]

In terms of prototype, the character, Alex Mercer, doesn't care. He's not you, he is pissed, he doesn't care, he just wants to find out who made him what he is and why. It makes sense for the character.

In terms of the Modern Warfare 2 scene, you didn't have to shoot the people you know. You could just walk through and not shoot any of the innocents. When the cops come it turns into a "me or them" situation. And most people in that situation would choose "them", especially if your a CIA agent who has to do this in order to stop a deadly terrorist.

And besides, if people like playing this, shouldn't you be more worried about the people then the makers? If people really enjoy all this stuff so much, what does that say about people?

 

[Dejanus]

All depends on the character you are playing in my opinion. For example, it is well established that Mercer in Prototype is an amoral monster fighting amoral monsters, civilian casualties would not concern him at all.

To be honest, I find nothing wrong with this.

Now murdering civvies in GTA4 or RDR is something I tend to avoid, as Marston and Niko would not do that without provocation.

Either way, killing random innocents has little moral effect on me, my preference is simply for it to make narrative sense.

But hey, if you can't handle it, get out of the metaphorical kitchen by all means. I won't judge you for it.

 

[SwimmingRock]

Can't say I can relate. I can almost always disassociate gaming actions from real life. In fact, the only time I've felt bad about in-game killing was Bioshock. To be fair, I do generally play "good" in games that allow it and like to do helpful side quests. I guess I've just gotten used to the violence against enemies being necessary to protect the little girl I'm collecting dolls for as a sidequest (random example, but you get my point).

As for killing civilians, that's left up to the player. It would be weird if they made it impossible for someone like Alex Mercer to be incapable of killing people as a matter of morality, seeing as he's pretty much a murderous psycho.

 

[Veylon]

Bah. Back in the good old days they used to kill and injure real people for entertainment. You'd take your kids to an execution and make bets on how badly it'd get botched this time. Or you could go to the Colloseum and watch men (or women, if that's your thing) hack each other up or get devoured by animals. Heck, in Saudia Arabia today they have public hangings that form one of the few excuses to gather socially.

Sure, we got problems with the video games. But is it really better to have people play games like Chess where pieces are politically-correctly 'removed' or 'captured' instead of horribly mutilated like in real life? Are games like Civilization better where entire cities of innocent civilians can be atomically baked in the inferno of nuclear weaponry? At least in Prototype the violence is open and honest and not hidden behind walls of abstraction.

 

[Woodsey]

Back in your cage, Thompson.

Oh, and Australia's lack of an 18 rating simply means that people of 15 can get their hands on games like that far easier. Case in point: AvP.

I have always been one to be very empathetic and in touch with his emotions (I'm an artist, and an artists greatest tools are his emotions), but I'm far from delicate.

You sound like the definition of delicate to me.

 

[GothmogII]

Hmm, I still think you're overreacting. I don't think the developers were thinking that hard about it, and yes, leaving the civilians in, just because.

As for 'proven studies', I was waiting for the continuation of that point, and leaves me only to respond with a big: So? Don't sports also increase aggression when being played? Hell, wouldn't a frustrating chess game increase someone's aggression level at the time? Overall, I agree that some videogames can increase a stimulate violent thoughts, but what I don't see is anything saying whether or not this a situational effect, or something gradual that builds up and increases aggressive thoughts and behaviour over time. I'm thinking the latter is a load of finely ground crap, as, if that kind of long term build up were happening, you don't think there would be a lot more psychopaths who are gamers too?

I'll not lose a wink of sleep for the countless NPC's I've offed, not because I'm okay with killing in real life, but because, as a relatively rational person, I realise that these are just pixels and polygons.

 

[lacktheknack]

I felt really bad when got the bad-ish ending in freaking Myst III. I replayed the ending over and over, doing it right, just to feel better.

I also always play good guy, and got ill playing Overlord.

That said, I enjoyed Prototype, but typically stayed on the roofs and avoided people. I just messed around with the infected, and stealthed the Army.

It's how I play. Splinter Cell and Mirror's Edge are some of my favorite games for a reason.

 

[razer17]

You have only just figured this shit out? Have you never played or heard of GTA or almost any other game ever? People get killed in games. So what? They aren't real people, most of the time they don't, and never have, existed.

I literally couldn't give a flying fuck what happens in a game, violence wise. Although, a game like RapeLay is a no-no, so go figure.

 

[MetroidNut]

The only thing like this that ever really bothered me was No Russian, in Modern Warfare 2. However, that's just because I personally think somebody threw in that level unnecessarily to generate artificial controversy. I'm not terribly bothered by the basic premise. To me, such reprehensible actions committed by the player are just a tool to be used in game design. If you handle such a scene well, it can be used to create a very powerful sense of guilt in the player, and add quite a bit to the game.

That said, to me, there's a fine line. It makes sense to harm innocents in the name of a greater good. It is indecent to make an entire game about mowing down defenseless crowds.

But I also believe very strongly that even if I personally consider a game highly indecent, attempting to stop its sale is a violation of basic freedom of expression. I value my First Amendment.

 

[BENZOOKA]

Oh, seriously, it's a video game. YOU shouldn't be playing games like that if it bothers you that much.

"studies have PROVEN that during gameplay the parts of your brain that handle aggression and emotion are stimulated."
Of course they are. It's interactive and in some way a simulation.

Bleh... If OP's post was just a little bit shorter, I'd be convinced he's trolling. Go get a clue. Can't agree or even believe half of OP's story.

 

[Internet Kraken]

Now, before all you over-protective gamers get up in arms "It's just a game! It's not real!" studies have PROVEN that during gameplay the parts of your brain that handle aggression and emotion are stimulated. YOU are performing the action. It is different to watching it in a movie, although that is just as disgusting and wrong.

I did a report on this very subject about a year ago, and this is one of the most common misconceptions involving video games. Despite so many people claiming this to be true, their has never been a conclusive study on the effects of video games on the brain. There has not been nearly as much in-depth research as you seem to think. There isn't any actual proof the video games are more influential than any other form of media or physical activity, unless something cropped up in the year since I did that report. Which is doubtful, since indisputable proof that games promote aggressive thoughts would be big news.

You need to step back and realize that sometimes it is just a game. Actions in a game do not always reflect real life. Just because we are willing to kill people in a video game does not mean we would even consider doing so outside of it. I've gunned down plenty of harmless civilians in video games, yet the idea of inflicting death on a real person is one that absolutely terrifies me. Now in some cases games do encourage you to treat your character as an extension of your own morality, but I think you will find that players are a lot more sensible during these games than in mindless sandbox games that treat civilians as walking bonus points.

 

[archvile93]

I went and bought Prototype a few days ago. I wanted something fun, hacky and slashy and fast-paced, and Prototype, with its incredible movement speed and fluidity of gameplay seemed like a good candidate.

I installed it and watched the first cutscene. I watched soldiers murder a young woman. It disturbed me, but it was clearly a hate-mongering storytelling technique. Hell, I would have used it myself if I was designing this game.

Prototype was an incredible game, and I was having tons of fun dodging cars in the street and leaping from building to building with this strange unnatural force.

A couple of hours later though I was running through a crowded street with my claws out. I turned to look at something, and as I did I accidentally hit the mouse button, and I hacked a girl in half. I stood there and looked at her dead face and mutilated body. This was meant to represent a person who lived and breathed, had a loving family, partner and maybe even children. She had hopes and dreams. Now she was gone. I was horrified at what I had done.

I turned off the game, took out the disk, put it in a drawer and I haven't played it since.

Now, think to your most basic senses of morality, your basic senses of compassion and empathy. Think of someone you love more than anything, be it your girlfriend, your mother, your partner or a close friend. Imagine if right now you were told they were dead, brutally killed. Their body is so badly damaged they are unrecognisable.

Now tell me, would you be willing to do this to anyone else? What in the fuck is the games industry doing? I realised why most people see games as distasteful and wrong. Some of them are fucking psychopathic.

There isn't even any consequence for killing civilians in Prototype. You even get a bloody score at the end of a battle.

How the hell is our Western society allowing this? We are meant to be CIVILISED. We care for others, we try our best to make sure everyone is well and happy.
I am Australian, and I am fucking glad now that R 18+ games are banned in our country. I'm actually supporting Michael Atkinson and Jack Thompson, even if I don't agree with some of their methods. At least they are trying to preserve taste and conservatism. There is NO need for violence such as this, the killing of innocent people for no other reason than "They were there", or "For XP".

I'm looking at you, Modern Warfare 2. I don't care if it was central to the plot, it was still disgusting.

Now, before all you over-protective gamers get up in arms "It's just a game! It's not real!" studies have PROVEN that during gameplay the parts of your brain that handle aggression and emotion are stimulated. YOU are performing the action. It is different to watching it in a movie, although that is just as disgusting and wrong.

I despise gore horror movies. Why would anyone enjoy watching a terrified attractive young girl sob for her life as she gets her head torn off? It makes me angry.

Am I overly sensitive?

I have always been one to be very empathetic and in touch with his emotions (I'm an artist, and an artists greatest tools are his emotions), but I'm far from delicate. The murdering of innocents, however, is too much. It is beyond my capacity to understand why any would want to willingly DESIGN this into their game. They painstakingly rendered every hacked off limb and disemboweled corpse, and for what? So some psychopath can get off on it? For 'realism' and 'grittiness'?

I'm disgusted at our media industries at the moment, full of tasteless and talentless idiots quashing the rare gem who can make something beautiful and meaningful, because it won't 'appeal to the wider audience'.

Now, what are your views? Are you okay with killing civilians, if it is central to the story? Are you just as disgusted and angered as I am with our games industry, and it's community who will not hear a word against it?

Discuss.

(I apologise for the terrible writing, I don't have time to edit.)

You're way too sensitive. Also if we want to play games that have more violence than your comfortable with, what right do you or the government have in stopping me so long as no one is being killed, by which I mean I could see your argument if somebody was going to a roman style gladiator match instead of playing a game. If you can't handle it that's fine, but don't tell me I can't handle it and take it away from me. Besides, while playing aggressive games does stimulate aggression, there is no evidence that it will cause you to go from sane and normal one minute to heartless killer the next. Maybe you'll get angry at somebody more easily but I doubt you'll stab them, and if you do you probably were unstable to begin with. You are also wrong, studies show that just witnessing violence (Say Iron man beating the crap out of some bad guys) also stimulates aggressive responses even if you did not interact with it.

An analagy: how would you like it if I said your art was innappropriate and had the government come in and burn it so no one would see it and get bad ideas?

Edit: I probably shouldn't have quoted you OP, for that I apoligize. However this is an important topic to me and I wanted to be sure you actually read what I have to say.

 

[Kortney]

I am Australian, and I am fucking glad now that R 18+ games are banned in our country. I'm actually supporting Michael Atkinson and Jack Thompson, even if I don't agree with some of their methods. At least they are trying to preserve taste and conservatism. There is NO need for violence such as this, the killing of innocent people for no other reason than "They were there", or "For XP".

You are applying your moral code to everyone else. Just because someone kills an innocent in a video game does not mean they are a morally questionable character or even someone who would ever consider doing that. Most people can make the disconnection between a video game and in real life. It doesn't sound like you can.

And you want to ban violent games because you don't like it, and you find it immoral?

Heh. Good try buddy.

My advice for you would be to stay away from violent things. You don't handle them well - and that isn't a fault in your character. Instead of whining and telling people that it is unacceptable - just don't play them. Easy.

Now, before all you over-protective gamers get up in arms "It's just a game! It's not real!" studies have PROVEN that during gameplay the parts of your brain that handle aggression and emotion are stimulated. YOU are performing the action. It is different to watching it in a movie, although that is just as disgusting and wrong.

Uh huh. I guess that's why all of us are murderers and bad people. Because stimulating parts of your brain that deal with aggression and emotion must there for = wrong. Not like we don't do it nearly every day in real life anyway.

 

[MetroidNut]

An analagy: how would you like it if I said your art was innappropriate and had the government come in and burn it so no one would see it and get bad ideas?

Also, this.

 

[Sazzlysarah]

I don't play overly gory or any kind of horror/grim/apocalyptic game really, the closest I've gotten to a bloody, messy game is Fable with blood effects turned on, and Final Doom when I was a kid, and even that freaked me out. I prefer (it has to be said) more child-friendly games that either aren't violent, like The Sims, or have happy endings, like Kingdom Hearts. The only other genre I play are battle strategy games like the Command and Conquer series. The battles are far more detached though. I like Fable because you need to turn safe mode off if you want to be an evil character and kill innocent people. I like playing nice in games, so my characters are always good, and the hero always wins (unless it's the Sims, where then everyone is happy and successful!).

 

[Something Amyss]

A couple of hours later though I was running through a crowded street with my claws out. I turned to look at something, and as I did I accidentally hit the mouse button, and I hacked a girl in half. I stood there and looked at her dead face and mutilated body. This was meant to represent a person who lived and breathed, had a loving family, partner and maybe even children. She had hopes and dreams. Now she was gone. I was horrified at what I had done.

How do you know about her family? How do you know about her partner? Maybe she was miserable, alone, despised, and an inch from going postal in a mall.

Now, think to your most basic senses of morality, your basic senses of compassion and empathy. Think of someone you love more than anything, be it your girlfriend, your mother, your partner or a close friend. Imagine if right now you were told they were dead, brutally killed. Their body is so badly damaged they are unrecognisable.

Now tell me, would you be willing to do this to anyone else? What in the fuck is the games industry doing? I realised why most people see games as distasteful and wrong. Some of them are fucking psychopathic.

Would I do it? No. Would I play a video game where I did it? I do. I did. I only put down Prototype because it was a crappy game. The story was okay, the side missions were just grinds, Alex was both unsympathetic and uninteresting (I don't need both, but I prefer at least one of the two), etc. But I killed hundreds of civilians.

There isn't even any consequence for killing civilians in Prototype. You even get a bloody score at the end of a battle.

Guy can rip tanks in half. Errr...What punishment befits him that can be adequately applied? The military tries to kill him some more?

How the hell is our Western society allowing this? We are meant to be CIVILISED. We care for others, we try our best to make sure everyone is well and happy.

We're nto civilised because our art disturbs you?

I'm looking at you, Modern Warfare 2. I don't care if it was central to the plot, it was still disgusting.

I'm not one to defend MW2, but "central to the plot" is the best possible reason to include something disgusting.

Now, before all you over-protective gamers get up in arms "It's just a game! It's not real!" studies have PROVEN that during gameplay the parts of your brain that handle aggression and emotion are stimulated. YOU are performing the action. It is different to watching it in a movie, although that is just as disgusting and wrong.

And such studies suggest violent people may be attracted to them, but no peer reviewed study has linked video games as a cause. The APA in fact thinks there's no link in terms of causality. Correlation does not prove causation. As such, your argument that it's been "proven" is wrong.

I despise gore horror movies. Why would anyone enjoy watching a terrified attractive young girl sob for her life as she gets her head torn off? It makes me angry.

I despise them too, but I ask "so what?"

Am I overly sensitive?

And possibly a bit silly.

I have always been one to be very empathetic and in touch with his emotions (I'm an artist, and an artists greatest tools are his emotions), but I'm far from delicate. The murdering of innocents, however, is too much. It is beyond my capacity to understand why any would want to willingly DESIGN this into their game. They painstakingly rendered every hacked off limb and disemboweled corpse, and for what? So some psychopath can get off on it? For 'realism' and 'grittiness'?

Because violence sells. But there's multiple reasons for that. I know people enjoy making specious claims about sociopaths and whatnot, but it's not really that simple.

But what, might I ask, difference does it make? You push interactivity as a problem even though films disgust you, so what difference does it make if it's photo realistic or NES quality graphics?

I'm disgusted at our media industries at the moment, full of tasteless and talentless idiots quashing the rare gem who can make something beautiful and meaningful, because it won't 'appeal to the wider audience'.

But that doesn't need to be violent. Issues with the mainstream exist outside of violence. You don't kill cheerleaders in Madden, you can't run around the shops in Mass Effect 2 slaughtering civilians, and Guitar Hero certainly didn't start a craze through genocide. Zelda's a major seller, as is Mario.

Now, what are your views? Are you okay with killing civilians, if it is central to the story? Are you just as disgusted and angered as I am with our games industry, and it's community who will not hear a word against it?

Its community obviously will hear words against it. The problem is, they're not all intelligent or well-formulated words. The notion that video games are going to cause violence, for example, has no foundation. Studies "proved" it with TV, comics, dime novels, rock, jazz, swing, film, and every new form of entertainment since about the 1300s. The new medium is always "different" somehow and you can always find someone to "prove" it for you if you're not interested in anything more than getting the answer you want to hear.

I don't even care if it's central to the plot. I'm okay with killing civilians in a game. Now, you may peg me as a heartless sociopath, but that's not me. I've risked my neck a bunch of times to help someone who was hurting, sometimes at risk to me. I will probably do it again a few more times before it's over. In "real life," I'll stick up for a stranger at risk of harm to myself. When I pick up a controller and start playing games, it's not me. It's a computer avatar at best.

However, if you don't play it, that's fine. Just don't shame the media for making games you don't like.