Muslim Should Not Equal Villain

[Whytewulf]

And before anybody says I'm discriminating by blaming certain groups, consider this: just because you can see a river doesn't mean you hate water.

Why blame any groups.. It's a person's decision. Just like saying all Muslims are terrorists. Geez, Hypocrasy at it's best. Most Republican Christians are just like Democratic Christians that are like Jewish independents, like the Buddist (I ran out of sides)... 99% of this country just wants to get along with their peaceful day. The politicians and media on all sides spark the fires.

Ok, perhaps you'll understand an allegory instead: You see a car intentionally collide with another car on a highway. The car that caused the accident happened to have either a Jesus fish, a Fox News bumper sticker, or a McCain/Palin 08 bumper sticker, but the driver of that car was otherwise a non-specific whitey. The driver of the other car looked vaguely Middle Eastern.

Merely observing that the guy who caused the accident had at least one of those three items on his car doesn't mean you hate the guy.

However, you ask "why blame any groups?" Because some groups are directly responsible. Specifically, the mosque thing wouldn't even be an issue if it wasn't for right-wing reactionaries in the "blogosphere" looking for any anti-Muslim cause and the right-wing media networks (newspaper editorial writers, talk radio, and again, Fox News) that pick up on these trivial issues and give them what looks like credibility.

Why the increase in violence recently? ^ Pretty much that ^

Also, English isn't your first language, is it?

Are you seriously criticizing my online forum typing skills? That doesn't add any credence to your argument. My point, which you ignored or misunderstood, was that the MAJORITY of any group has no specific agenda, only to enjoy life peacefully. The outliers and fringe groups get the headlines. And CNN, Fox, NY Times, the local college paper expounds upon it and makes it more news worthy than it should be in most cases. Why I say its hypocrisy is that you are doing the same thing, assuming all republicans are Christians, all Christians are republicans, all listen to Fox news, and all hate Muslims. What I am tired of is titles; it?s the character of the man that?s important. His actions are most important, not his title, his church, or his party.

As for this article, I understand it's point, but most people who buy the games don't care. Let?s be bigger than the headlines.

 

[Blue_vision]

My opinion on this: it's kind of silly to not expect media to have ideological baddies. They're the bread and butter of interesting stories. But that said, there are two other important points in this.

Firstly, you have to accept that everyone's on an equal playing field. Especially in a video game where you're barely concerned about plot while you're going around shooting people, it really shouldn't be that big an issue to be able to play as a different sect of people going around shooting others. And if you can get a medium that's able to reason and discuss real-world issues by inserting us into the lives of people on the other side, all it does is give a little more morality in the world, so we only have to shoot people in video games and not real life.

But secondly, you have to accept that there are current issues here. Because of other media, muslims are a very heavily stereotyped group and get tooonnes of stick in real life. So game developers, as well as other artists, should be careful that they don't further demonize a group that's already being stereotyped the hell out of these days. Storytelling media should instead work to further human morality, by showing that there's a very large grey zone here, not just west = good, muslims = bad. Even if it's purely to move the story along, it can help to create a stigma against that group in the bigger scheme of things.

And now I bid you farewell to continue the flaming.

btw, Saladin's a sick name. I wish I was named Saladin.

 

[Therumancer]

My only criticism of your argument is that this is typically more to do with Arabic musilms (which the OP has decided are all musilms) than the huge number of Indonesian Musilms that exist.

I've written several messages on the subject, so apologies for probably missing this bit in that last message.

I consider "Muslim" to refer to a very specific culture despite how many people use it. I think someone can follow Islam or be born an Arab without being part of that meta-culture, though for whatever reason most Islamics want to claim membership.

To my way of thinking, I think religion can be practiced without infringing on anyone else. In the US for example you can't tell what religion someone is just by looking at them in most cases. I'm a Christian for example (though not a very spiritual one) but your not going to know that just by looking at me.

I've also met, and worked with, numerous Islamics, Jews, Wiccans, and others who were the same way. Only learning about their faith if it came up in conversation.

For a society to be healthy I think there needs to be a solid seperation of church and state, and whatever you may believe it should remain a personal matter. When it starts to infringe on someone else, or society in general it's a problem. Especially when that turns violent.

To put things into perspective probably the worst "mainstream" problem the US has had with religion in recent memory is a church run by a guy named Fred Phelps who likes to raid people's funerals and stuff for his own Agenda. He is however not violent, and due to his behavior the system itself is in the process of shutting him down for his behavior.

Do Indonesian Islamics have a seperation of church and state? How violent are they on religious grounds? Is there likely to be an issue if one came to the US and had to follow a dress code like everyone else to hold a job?

I admit some of the details do make me seem a bit picky, but understand I'm tired of the entire situation. I've known people who are perfectly comfortable with their faith while keeping it private and behaving in a socially acceptable manner, which is why I make a distinction. That's how it should be to me.

At any rate if the portrayal of Muslims in the media in general bothers people who are simply Islamic they should understand specifically who is being talked about by the behavior and the real examples. What's more in a given storyline for a book, game, or movie there is no real point in having a character show up to make a point about being a more laid back Islamic. I mean if you DID have a terrorist invasion going on by some of these guys who plan them (albiet in a format that makes it more gamable) it's not like everyone is going to put down their guns and stop to engage in small talk with some dude who wanders by for no other person than to explain that there are other *comparitively* small groups of Islamics who don't act like that.

What's more, for all we know most of the characters in the backround are generic enough where you have no way of knowing none of them aren't Americanized Islamics since by and large most Americans don't go running around advertising their faith.

What's more most Americans tend to just ignore it when someone insults their faith or it's conventions. I might not agree with it, but I'm hardly going to freak out on someone for playing Satanic Black Metal or whatever. Heck, I'm open minded enough and believe god is benevolent enough where he doesn't mind fantasy that is understood to be fantasy, with some of the games I play heavily like the "Shin Megami Tensei" series that should be fairly obvious. Maybe not everyone is that open minded, but you can choose to ignore things (even if you don't consume them) rather than making a point about it.

I think a lot of it starts with people realizing that whatever god they worship is benevolent at least to them. That is typically the entire point of religion. A deity who is going to do unspeakable things to you for shaving or not wearing a fancy hat and makes commandments can't really be considered a good guy... see where I'm coming from? I'm just not nilistic enough to believe that there is no good in the universe and that the only way to not come to a bad end is to conform to the whims of some celestrial tyrant.

 

[Shihoudani]

It is true that Muslims have been in a bad light (not near as much as Nazi's or Russians lol). However, Muslims have been attacking American values for just as long. Even today we can see hate speeches from Islamic leaders citing violence against Americans, and their way of life. I'm afraid I can't feel sympathetic towards a culture that hates democracy, it's values, and it's people. Also, they hate Jews with such a passion that it makes Nazi's look conservative. This is common knowledge, and also this:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.229799-Iran-Publishes-Anti-Israel-Videogames

Sorry, I'm just not buying that it is Muslims who are the real victims here. Of course, this is a matter of opinion.

This. Why is it such a big issue because it's about Muslims?

The Nazi's were bastards, and now the Germans are endlessly getting stick about it in virtually every shooter that comes out. You even get Nazi Zombies now. And they suck it up and move on.

Ditto for the Russians.

But Muslims? Nooo... can't do that. Their sensitive feelings might get hurt. Now keep in mind that those same 'sensitive' feelings:
- stone people,
- abuse and oppress women,
- rabidly denouce ANYTHING that isn't completely in line with THEIR religion (funny how they're allowed to criticise everyone else, but cannot be criticised themselves),
- call for murder on London and Amsterdam streets without getting arrested for promoting hate,
- commit terrorists acts,
and so on. Sure, it's not ALL of them. Many living in the Western world are just fine. But equally many are dragging their junk across into our world and stoning/honor killing people in Western countries now too!

So no. I don't have much sympathy at all.

When the 'moderate' Muslims are prepared to stand up and say "No! This is not acceptable!" and do something to stop it, then we've got room to talk. But the vast majority only ever go as far as "No! This is not acceptable. But I can understand why you're doing it, and even though I won't do it myself, I kinda support YOU doing it." and then do nothing to stop it.

Until they stand up to be counted, they can all bugger off.

Quoted for truth, though not sure why I was quoted in particular lol! This post covers many of the things I never said in my initial post. It is true that it seems that Muslims feel they can criticize anyone, but will not tolerate being criticized themselves. Thanks for the post ^~^! It's good to know that truth seekers are still out there.

I agree with both Lawyer105 and Waif, that all to often people simply dismiss some peoples justified reactions, by simply saying they mean to generalize a people when that's not it. I believe that a large portion of muslims are very honest, good people. That doesn't mean that there isn't a portion out there that demean women's rights or stone people for crimes that would be laughable here in the western world.

That some would threaten death upon anyone who dare draw a critical finger at their religion, as they would do to others. Not to mention the whole Mohammed controversy over his appearance in South Park. Everyone remembers the death threats that they received, or the draw mohammed day founder who received dozens of threats.

 

[alinos]

the only issue here is because muslims don't come from any one country and thats the only reason to complain in my eyes

the russians still get a bad go as villians (Salt is a good example)

the problem here is that when its relegated to a country its a government on behalf of thier people normally


the issue here is that you have a section of the muslim population going out and blowing shit up

and thier is no way to differentiate between those that are and those that arent

its one of the issues when someone decides to wage a holy war

the violence and religion is combined in a way that hasn't really been in the modern age


In an FPS you only visit the bad parts of the world IE the ones with the terrorist muslims so its kinda hard to show both sides of the coin

 

[The Big Eye]

'Muslim Should Not Equal Villain' is a laughable travesty of an assertion.

Anyone who condones rape, murder, & slavery (as any Christian, Muslim or Jew must do if they follow their 'holy' texts) is a despicable sociopath in dire need of incarceration.

I'm... not sure how you expect anyone to agree with that statement.

Dude i"m an atheist and even this zealot-of-an-atheist (big eye)pisses me off. This is what I'm talking about he goes crazy (no offense) now my whole group looks bad

This is probably just a miscommunication, but were you referring to me when you said "zealot-of-an-atheist?" That would be wrong on two counts.

Personally, I think it's better to weigh people by who they are, rather than by their beliefs, and I respect the atheist worldview, though I can't say I agree with it.

 

[strum4h]

Their are assholes in every culture and religion and if you are someone who bases ur opinion of an entire culture on the actions of a few radicals then YOU are an asshole too... in fact ur one of the alpha assholes that helps facilitate assholeism for all the other assholes. I'll take whatever you got moderators!

It is hard to ignore a lot of the things that radicals do. That is the main problem with any religion. That there will always be people blindly following something and taking it to such an extreme that they are willing to kill over it. People need to think freely, decide for themselves if they want to die for no reason.

 

[The Big Eye]

/snip regarding religion, culture and violent Muslims

There's a part of your post I agree with, and one with which I strongly disagree.
I agree that the violence of middle eastern conflict could not happen without some degree of public complicity. Sadly, and in the same way, the transpiration of the Holocaust must have meant that a significant minority of Germans did want to see the Jews "dealt with," and that a majority either didn't know, didn't care, or didn't have the stones to do something about the travesty that followed.

However, I strongly disagree with your implicit stance that the answer to violent prejudice is military action. It is in fact military action that causes violent prejudice, as it has in Africa, Europe, parts of Asia, and even North America. America bringing war to Al-Qaeda's doorstep only brought in more recruits, and while our militaries may have scored a victory by conventional standards, the damage that has been done will take decades to heal. Simply because war is the only viable tool at our disposal does not mean that it should be used.

 

[kickyourass]

http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-already-knows-everything-he-needs-to-know-abou,17990/

Hits the nail on the head I think

I love the Onion.

OT: I personally don't think it's anything to get to up in arms over, I don't think it's not that much different then when the villians are Russian or something. Besides, anyone who honestly thinks that Muslim automatically means terrorist is obviously a bigoted fucktard who's opinion doesn't (Or at least shouldn't) really matter to anyone except other bigoted fucktards.

 

[The Big Eye]

Their are assholes in every culture and religion and if you are someone who bases ur opinion of an entire culture on the actions of a few radicals then YOU are an asshole too... in fact ur one of the alpha assholes that helps facilitate assholeism for all the other assholes. I'll take whatever you got moderators!

It is hard to ignore a lot of the things that radicals do. That is the main problem with any religion. That there will always be people blindly following something and taking it to such an extreme that they are willing to kill over it. People need to think freely, decide for themselves if they want to die for no reason.

*facepalm*
The only difference between radicals committing crimes and ordinary, run-of-the-mill psychopaths committing crimes is that the religionists get more media attention. Same deal with violent video games.

Does being a gamer make you violent? Hell no. Does being a Muslim make you violent? Hell no. Does being from Texas make you violent?

...Jury's still out on that one.

 

[strum4h]

Their are assholes in every culture and religion and if you are someone who bases ur opinion of an entire culture on the actions of a few radicals then YOU are an asshole too... in fact ur one of the alpha assholes that helps facilitate assholeism for all the other assholes. I'll take whatever you got moderators!

It is hard to ignore a lot of the things that radicals do. That is the main problem with any religion. That there will always be people blindly following something and taking it to such an extreme that they are willing to kill over it. People need to think freely, decide for themselves if they want to die for no reason.

*facepalm*
The only difference between radicals committing crimes and ordinary, run-of-the-mill psychopaths committing crimes is that the religionists get more media attention. Same deal with violent video games.

Does being a gamer make you violent? Hell no. Does being a Muslim make you violent? Hell no. Does being from Texas make you violent?

...Jury's still out on that one.

I meant by that last line that people should not blindly follow religion. I never said being religious makes you violent but it certainly gives you bias towards it.

 

[mega48man]

there's a reason there's such a hate in the media. because when you play as a nazi in the old CoD or a russian in the Newer CoDs, no one bitches about it, not even Vladamir putin gives a crap, i bet he might even find it funny in a way.

but the the very second there's a reference to muslims, EVERY DAMN MUSILM GETS ENRAGED.

what i don't get is why some people can't just take a joke. ok, so you can play as the taliban in medal of honor, big deal, IT'S A VIDEO GAME, IT'S NOT REAL, IT'S JUST REFLECTING MODERN POLITICAL ISSUES. i don't even know why you brought up prince of persia, that game's set in a completely different time than post 9/11. back then the muslims were fine, so why not send one little trouble maker who looks like jake gyllenhal based of an old platforming game in there with the power to stop time? big deal!!!

i looked up for 2 seconds, AND WHY ARE PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT MAFIA 2 BEING AN ISSUE? sterotypes? DUH!!! didn't you watch the godfather??? how about part 2? if you're gonna make a video game about italian mobsters in the 20's, WHY NOT MAKE THEM ITALIAN FROM THE 20'S??? the game would suck ass if you were an asian mob from the 20's, there weren't any asians in chicago at the time either. how about just a bunch of bland white guys? HELL NO, THAT'S BORING!!! i want lines like "he's sleeping wit de fishes" done right, italian mobster.

this has nothing to do with muslims by the way, just a reminder, unless you can find me an italian muslim, then smack him for "ruining the family name" as the don would say it.

BACK ON TRACK, if you really want game developers to stop making games where you kill muslims;
1; stop looking so hard for games with muslims in them. seriously, the only other game i know where that's an issue is ethnic cleansing, for obvious reasons
2; stop playing games where you shoot muslims, aka, stop playing the new medal of honor. instead, play HALO 3, or BAD COMPANY 2, CoD BLACK OPS, or CoD WORLD AT WAR, or BRUTAL LEGEND, or, GUITAR HERO, or GTA4, or MADDEN 11,or DORA THE EXPLORER: ADVENTURE TO THE PURPLE PLANET, or MADWORLD, or PROTOTYPE, or LEFT 4 DEAD 2, or POKEMON GOLD, or FIFA 11, or MARVEL VS. CAPCOM, or GOD OF WAR 3, or FAT PRINCESS, or ROCK BAND 3, or ARMY OF TWO 40TH DAY, or RESIDENT EVIL 4, or GEARS OF WAR 2 (OR 3), or TRANSFORMERS WAR FOR CYBERTRON, or GOD DAMN DUKE NUKEM FOREVER.
--(i just listed a bunch of games with no muslims in them what so ever. if you reply complaining that there is a neglectance of muslims in video games, i swear to fucking god, i will pull you nuts out like we pull our troops out of iraq.)

PAGE 10! W00T!

 

[Turbo_Destructor]

Muslims in My Monitor

From Prince of Persia to the recent Medal of Honor news of playable Taliban, the depiction of Muslims in videogames hasn't been any more even-handed than American TV or movies. Saladin Ahmed is one Muslim gamer who'd like to see that change.

Read Full Article

Companies that make games, at the end of the day, need to bring home the bacon (no pun intended for ethnicities that don't eat pork). The bottom of the line is that it is an industry that needs to make money. I'm sorry to say it, but these companies just make what will be popular generally. If it happens to be portraying a certain society poorly, then that is just a reflection the the market the game companies are attempting to sell their product to.

Certain Muslims, and in the past Russians and Germans, have done some very bad things and as a result, not unreasonably, the world is suspicious and feels hatred towards some. aforementioned bad things make good plots for games, but I don't think that ALL muslims/russians/germans are caricatured. If they are the bad guys, they should not be likable, otherwise we would not enjoy killing them as much - and this goes for monsters and aliens as well.

Also, you have to remember that the gaming companies are largely American or from the UK. As such, their games tend to (but not always) have caucasian heroes/heroines. You may call this racist. But if there were game companies in Lebanon or Pakistan, or Saudi Arabia, do you really think they would be any less preferential towards themselves?

To be honest, I think that the article is a little naive. Why should a company cater to the needs of a minority at the possible expense of income? They are just a business trying to maximize their profits (like any other business) and they don't see that changing their portrayal of certain ethnicities is going to increase said profits. If someone comes to them with a good idea (e.g. Assassin's Creed or Prince of Persia), that they think will sell, then they'll make it.

It's not racism, it's just business. it's the people they cater to that are racist: society. If your purpose is to raise awareness of the innaccurate portrayal of certain ethnicities in games - to try and open minds a little, then i guess thats not a bad thing. But if you're saying it's not fair and the gaming companies should change?... well.... you're wasting your time.

 

[Shihoudani]

Just a recent article I read an hour ago while on Yahoo, thought it kind of fit with the arguments that are going on.

De Telegraaf, the Netherlands' largest newspaper, led its front page on Friday with a story on the speech by Feiz Muhammad.

The Sydney-born Muhammad has gained notoriety for, among other things, calling on young children to be radicalized and blaming rape victims for their own attacks.

The paper posted an English-language audio clip in which he refers to Wilders as "this Satan, this devil, this politician in Holland" and explains that anyone who talks about Islam like Wilders does should be executed by beheading.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100903/wl_nm/us_dutch_wilders

My apologies if I messed up the link Past five in the morning and I'm dead tired. x3

 

[Booze Zombie]

I've never looked at the race of people when I play a game, I don't think "filthy *insert race here*" I'm shooting enemies, should I care if they're exaggerated or what colour they are?

I'm not sure if the people making these games are consciously trying to say "Arabs are evil" or if Arab enemies just fitted the setting they used at the time, I might never know...
but what I do know, is that's not what I take away from a game.

 

[oblivion220791]

whatever happened to the old human vs alien, where no religions are involved, no races are comparable, no accents, no nationality. so now let's just finish this thing up and let's play MAG!!!

 

[Lawyer105]

On a similar note, ever notice how a character with a british accent always turns out to be the villain in everything? Are we offended? Yes, slightly. We just laugh at the silly americans who distrust us because we sound intelligent.

You'll note though, that British actors only play the intelligent villains. The thugs are usually played by dudes with a Brooklyn accent. I guess that's a compliment of sorts?

 

[oblivion220791]

there's a reason there's such a hate in the media. because when you play as a nazi in the old CoD or a russian in the Newer CoDs, no one bitches about it, not even Vladamir putin gives a crap, i bet he might even find it funny in a way.

but the the very second there's a reference to muslims, EVERY DAMN MUSILM GETS ENRAGED.

what i don't get is why some people can't just take a joke. ok, so you can play as the taliban in medal of honor, big deal, IT'S A VIDEO GAME, IT'S NOT REAL, IT'S JUST REFLECTING MODERN POLITICAL ISSUES. i don't even know why you brought up prince of persia, that game's set in a completely different time than post 9/11. back then the muslims were fine, so why not send one little trouble maker who looks like jake gyllenhal based of an old platforming game in there with the power to stop time? big deal!!!

i looked up for 2 seconds, AND WHY ARE PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT MAFIA 2 BEING AN ISSUE? sterotypes? DUH!!! didn't you watch the godfather??? how about part 2? if you're gonna make a video game about italian mobsters in the 20's, WHY NOT MAKE THEM ITALIAN FROM THE 20'S??? the game would suck ass if you were an asian mob from the 20's, there weren't any asians in chicago at the time either. how about just a bunch of bland white guys? HELL NO, THAT'S BORING!!! i want lines like "he's sleeping wit de fishes" done right, italian mobster.

this has nothing to do with muslims by the way, just a reminder, unless you can find me an italian muslim, then smack him for "ruining the family name" as the don would say it.

BACK ON TRACK, if you really want game developers to stop making games where you kill muslims;
1; stop looking so hard for games with muslims in them. seriously, the only other game i know where that's an issue is ethnic cleansing, for obvious reasons
2; stop playing games where you shoot muslims, aka, stop playing the new medal of honor. instead, play HALO 3, or BAD COMPANY 2, CoD BLACK OPS, or CoD WORLD AT WAR, or BRUTAL LEGEND, or, GUITAR HERO, or GTA4, or MADDEN 11,or DORA THE EXPLORER: ADVENTURE TO THE PURPLE PLANET, or MADWORLD, or PROTOTYPE, or LEFT 4 DEAD 2, or POKEMON GOLD, or FIFA 11, or MARVEL VS. CAPCOM, or GOD OF WAR 3, or FAT PRINCESS, or ROCK BAND 3, or ARMY OF TWO 40TH DAY, or RESIDENT EVIL 4, or GEARS OF WAR 2 (OR 3), or TRANSFORMERS WAR FOR CYBERTRON, or GOD DAMN DUKE NUKEM FOREVER.
--(i just listed a bunch of games with no muslims in them what so ever. if you reply complaining that there is a neglectance of muslims in video games, i swear to fucking god, i will pull you nuts out like we pull our troops out of iraq.)

PAGE 10! W00T!

dude, chill

 

[chinomareno]

Their are assholes in every culture and religion and if you are someone who bases ur opinion of an entire culture on the actions of a few radicals then YOU are an asshole too... in fact ur one of the alpha assholes that helps facilitate assholeism for all the other assholes. I'll take whatever you got moderators!

It is hard to ignore a lot of the things that radicals do. That is the main problem with any religion. That there will always be people blindly following something and taking it to such an extreme that they are willing to kill over it. People need to think freely, decide for themselves if they want to die for no reason.

*facepalm*
The only difference between radicals committing crimes and ordinary, run-of-the-mill psychopaths committing crimes is that the religionists get more media attention. Same deal with violent video games.

Does being a gamer make you violent? Hell no. Does being a Muslim make you violent? Hell no. Does being from Texas make you violent?

...Jury's still out on that one.

Being Texan or a gamer has no ideology to conform to, it's just not comparable. The difference is there is a source of inspiration for religious violence deeply routed in the ideology. You would have to ignore a lot of evidence to equate Islamic terrorism with random psychopaths, they are gullible but quite sane.