Muslim Should Not Equal Villain

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znix

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Islam isn't very accepting of other religions or people without religion. Basically anyone who is not a Muslim must be persecuted or worse.

Perhaps not all Muslims follow this religious decree, but many do and many are indoctrinated with it from birth.

Thus, it's not hard casting Muslims as villains when their own religion encourages death to anyone outside of it. It fits rather well actually.
 

Danzaivar

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In a movie, chances are the English guy will be the big bad. Muslims still have another 200 years or so (And counting) before they get off the hook.

Or I'm calling blatant favouritism.
 

Azrael the Cat

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Meh, as far as I'm concerned, USA in games (and most movies) = villains. Occasionally in books you'll get the more thoughtful types who will seriously consider what they're doing to the world (e.g. Don Delillo), but for the most part I just can wait to hop into T's in Counterstrike or do some yankee-killing in pretty much any other multiplayer shooter.

But then again, I also not that under the US's OWN rules of engagement, the twin towers were a legitimate strike. The US;
(a) declared that pre-emptive strikes were legitimate even without an immediate and proveable risk (and given the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia, Al Quaida had a pretty immediate and provable risk of danger, unlike the US).
(b) in it's shock and awe campaign devised rules of engagement wherein if one government building was part of a block of buildings that would be taken out by a missile, then the whole lot became a legitimate target with collateral damage.

The Twin Towers contained government officers, CIA and FBI records - easily enough to make it a legitimate target under the US's OWN rules of warefare.

Now these are not rules that I agree with. I yearn for the days (short as they may have been) when wars were formally declared, no civillian casualities could be shrugged off as collateral and people united across borders by their common economic and familial interests (who do you think has more in common - a US tire maker whose just been downsized in Detroit and some guy trying to start a cafe out of the rubble of Irawm or that same US tire maket and the head of General Motors - I'm pretty sure which one would have the easier time sitting down for dinner with each others; family.

But you can't have it both ways. You can declare the Twin Towers a tragedy, but by that same reasoning the US have been the villains ever since.
 

Denamic

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It's pretty hard not to paint all Muslims with the same brush when there's Muslims who attacks people and even police, vandalizes property, and even kill people, just because they spoke up against Islam. Or even just because someone dressed 'immodestly'.
I realize that all Muslims are not like that, but when a religion can promote people to act like that, something needs to be done.
There's a limit to tolerance.

Besides, according to Islam, all non-Muslims are to be beheaded.
I'm not entirely comfortable accepting that.
 

Saladin Ahmed

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Steve5513 said:
It's not Islam being portrayed. It's extremist groups who follow Islam. No video game I have ever heard of, says all Muslims are bad and all are the same. In the new MoH, the bad guy is not islam. It's the Taliban.

Then again, we all know how Muslims get offended at the slightest remark even when it wasn't intended and must be exempt from any criticism.
So if all Muslims in video games aren't bad, if they're not all the same, surely you must have lots of positive counter-examples to weigh against the dozen or so games w/ evil terrorists?
 

Saladin Ahmed

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Ghostkai said:
I get what you're saying Mr. OP, but in certain examples, like say ,PoP or Aladdin, isn't EVERYONE Muslim?

However, you make a fair point, though as some people have said, Russians (who are more often than not depicted as being behind an Islamic insurrection) and Germans also get it pretty rough.
As I said in the OP, in the very first PoP game, the hero's actually supposed to be from a foreign (to Persia) land. If one had a color monitor he had blond hair. Later PoP games are different. And again in Aladdin, yes everyone's muslim/arab, but it's interesting that Jafar is brown with a big nose and (int he movie) an accent, whereas Aladdin looks more like a tan white guy and (in the movie) sounds like an American...

Still, as I say in the OP, these sorts of 'exotic Arabia' games are indeed less troubling than some of the more 'modern war' games.
 

Saladin Ahmed

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Sillyiggy said:
Persecution complexes are fun.
Yeah it's awesome to make this stuff up! In fact *I* actually stabbed a Muslim cabbie in New York (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/muslim-question-leads-cabbie-stabbing-hate-crime-charge/story?id=11480081), and set off a pipe bomb at a Florida mosque (http://www.aolnews.com/crime/article/fbi-finds-pipe-bomb-used-in-blast-at-fla-mosque/19475001) JUST SO YOU WOULD TAKE MY BEEF WITH METAL SLUG 2 SERIOUSLY!
 

Fensfield

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A really nice read, thank you.

On another note, anyone played Anno 1404? That had an interesting spin on the subject. Specifically, the Eastern faction (who weren't independently playable, sadly, but rather had European characters currying their favour in return for technology) were portrayed in a pretty positive light indeed (enlightened pacifists being harried by a bunch of Western nutjobs). Inaccurate to a degree in and of itself, but there was one point in the campaign really struck me.

A side quest, wherein the Islamic population of one of the Eastern peoples' colonies is rendered refugee, has the player providing them with relief. At one point, this involves clothes, and portrays something of a mad scramble to get as many jerkins sent out as possible. Now, for the west, this meant pig-hide.

The result? No cliché up in arms ranting about filth or the like, just the eastern faction's head receives the shipment and.. delivers a very awkward thank you. He's not ungrateful, or rude or angry, just .. doesn't quite seem sure how best to deal with the issue that just got dumped in his lap by someone who was trying to help, but didn't know any better.

Of course, I'm pretty sure there were some specifics that 1404 messed up, but that was a really interesting little touch, to me.
 

370999

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TheRightToArmBears said:
Well America is pretty xenophobic about Muslims.

What's this in the news? The ground zero mosque? Oh yes. that.
The USA is a hell of alot more tolerant towards Muslims then alot of Muslim countries are towards Christians, Atheists and citizens of the United States.
 

Blunderman

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Saladin Ahmed said:
Muslims in My Monitor

From Prince of Persia to the recent Medal of Honor news of playable Taliban, the depiction of Muslims in videogames hasn't been any more even-handed than American TV or movies. Saladin Ahmed is one Muslim gamer who'd like to see that change.

Read Full Article
Nintendo shouldn't equal casual gaming either, but we deal the cards we're given.
 

Saladin Ahmed

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Denamic said:
Besides, according to Islam, all non-Muslims are to be beheaded.
I'm not entirely comfortable accepting that.
znix said:
Basically anyone who is not a Muslim must be persecuted or worse.

Perhaps not all Muslims follow this religious decree, but many do and many are indoctrinated with it from birth.

Thus, it's not hard casting Muslims as villains when their own religion encourages death to anyone outside of it. It fits rather well actually.
Sigh...

Just out of curiosity do all the folks saying things like this have ANY notions of the actual history of interfaith interactions in Islamic societies, or are you just kind of regurgitating stuff you've heard?

And, also out of curiosity where are folks getting the 'Well, most Muslims might not follow this or that crazy belief, but lots do, so too bad' stuff from? Do you have any numbers for who believes what, or are you just assuming that since most of the images of Muslims you see in the media are of fanatics that must mean most Muslims actually are fanatics? CHikcen and egg, people.
 

MadeinHell

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But those are stereotypes that are necessary for survival of this world:
Germans - War-loving
French - Insta-surrender
Italians - Great lovers
Americans - Dumbasses
Chinese - "yes sir, our customer is our master sir"
Japanise - *bow* *bow* *bow* *bow* BANZAIIIII!
Polish - Drunkyard
Russian - Rich Drunkyard
Taliban - Terrorist

Those stereotypes rule the world!
[sub]just to clarify I'm obviously joking[/sub]
[sub][sub][sub]But French are cowards[/sub][/sub][/sub]
 

Sworm

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Denamic said:
Besides, according to Islam, all non-Muslims are to be beheaded.
I'm not entirely comfortable accepting that.
Um... no.

Sorry but this is not completely true.

According to Islam you behead (which is another way of saying, you kill) the disbelievers... if they start to mess with you, prosecute you, attack you, or any other form of active hostility
that right there makes a big difference right?
In case you don't get it, it changes the meaning to outright blatant aggression, to a defensive/counter-offensive stance.

MadeinHell said:
But those are stereotypes that are necessary for survival of this world:
Germans - War-loving
French - Insta-surrender
Italians - Great lovers
Americans - Dumbasses
Chinese - "yes sir, our customer is our master sir"
Japanise - *bow* *bow* *bow* *bow* BANZAIIIII!
Polish - Drunkyard
Russian - Rich Drunkyard
Taliban - Terrorist

Those stereotypes rule the world!
[sub]just to clarify I'm obviously joking[/sub]
[sub][sub][sub]But French are cowards[/sub][/sub][/sub]
you can add the Swiss banker to that list ;)
 

catalyst8

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Oct 29, 2008
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'Muslim Should Not Equal Villain' is a laughable travesty of an assertion.

Anyone who condones rape, murder, & slavery (as any Christian, Muslim or Jew must do if they follow their 'holy' texts) is a despicable sociopath in dire need of incarceration.
 

TsunamiWombat

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Sep 6, 2008
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Sadly, the western mentality to depict easterners as gibbering savages, and the eastern mentality to depict westerners as gibbering savagers, dates back to probably the very dawn of man. The men who make these games aren't catering to racism necessarily, but to a subversive mentality built into our very pop culture no one realizes is there. Like a disk defrag, only time and patience can excise these sentiments. A good way to speed up this process is however, to first draw attention to it, then to create GOOD examples of Muslim characters.
 

Therumancer

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I'll say flat out that I feel no need to have the last word here, so I'm not going to argue this in detail.

I think that there is nothing wrong with villifying Muslims at all in games, it's no worse than doing the same to Nazis, and arguably more deserved. The differance is mainly in the level of propaganda as none of the major Western nations involved in the current conflicts have invoked war powers they way they did during World War II, and taken control of the information being disseminated. As many people who have researched World War II can tell you, it was not a small minority of fringe people running the war, and what's more the US and it's allies both quashed dissent and outright lied about a lot of the things that were going on during the war, things like human flesh lampshades, portable bone grinding machines, and similar atrocities were all things that were made up specifically to make the Nazis easier to kill during the conflict. Likewise anti-war opinions, and people wanting to express opinions like the ones in this article (Hitler was VERY popular all over the world when this got started) wind up having their right to speed surpressed for the duration of the conflict. Eventually this supression was removed which is of course how we know about some of the lies if you dig, and can find out how World War II was not as clean and straightforward in the fighting as history would have you believe. To put it bluntly, war sucks, and for all of the "red blooded, heroic Brits and Americans fighting honorably against evil Nazis and their horrible inventions" of fantasy, in the end we were simply put bigger bastards. You hear all about how evil The Nazis were for bombing London, we were just as bad, if not worse in the end when it came time to take Germany out and did a lot of our own bombing of civilian targets and infrastructure, etc...

At any rate, to get back on the subject. Perhaps it isn't a properly academic distinction but I personally consider there to be a differance between an Arab, someone practicing a form of Islam, and a Muslim. To me Muslims refer to the specific culture of the Middle East and the nations living throughout that region. Nothing prevents an Arab from being something other than an Islamic, or someone of another ethnicity from adopting those beliefs and lifestyle. What's more it *IS* possible to practice Islam in a form more or less acceptable to the world community. Similar to how Christinity has by and large changed and as practiced by most (including The Catholic Church) things like "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" are more or less ignored. The differance being that to Muslims, those who live in "The Muslim World" these teachings are still taught, accepted, and practiced on a societal level. Your not dealing with a radical fringe, because a radical fringe can't engage in this kind of war of martyrdom and so on (without popular support, there is no one to martyr yourself to in this context). Your typical Muslim in The Middle East might not actively be packing an AK-47 and Rocket Launcher, but at the same time they support those who do, as is seen by these people covering for the actual fighters making the ambushes. What's more people who try and reform wind up themselves running into a lot of problems from the rest of the society. When you have areas starting to change the other areas and leaders do things like attack their own people via suicide bombings and such in order to bring them back into line, and despite what a lot of people might want to think it works. This kind of thing is all over the media if you want to look.

There is no massive conspiricy to demonize Muslims, we have already seen what happens when we go there (World War II). Indeed there are tons of people all over the world who speak in defense of the culture, and so on. The negative portrayal we see occuring in spite of efforts by liberals, moralists, and the "peace at any price" crowd is brought on the Muslims by themselves.

It's a cultural issue rather than one involving a specific nation. Understand that this HAS been going on during the 1970s, but then again that's also when we started having high profile plane bombings and hijackings. Not to mention the high profile failure of diplomacy and attempts at measured responses like trying to free hostages with The Special Forces (including one legendary failure). We've also done things like provide weapons and support to leaders claiming to be progressive, only to have them betray us (yes, we created Saddam as a method of trying to deal with Iran without having to invade ourselves).

Right now we have Iran developing nuclear technology, and talking out of both sides of it's mouth. On one hand we have them telling us that they want it for peaceful energy related reasons (which they have no need for), on the other we have speeches about them getting all psyched up to fire their first bombs at Isreal.

Going much further back, look at the whole "Satanic Verses" thing, someone writes a book criticising Islam and he winds up with an international death bounty on his head and has to go into hiding. To put things into comparison, someone like "Dan Brown" writes books that are critical of Christianity (and many other people have done this as well) and he doesn't have the pope offering tons of money for his death.

This stuff isn't propaganda, it's all real, it's happened. Heck, if we wanted to demonize Muslims we'd have a heck of a lot more material to work with than we ever did with the Nazis. We've got dudes decapitating their children when they suspect their wife slept with anoter man, women being forced to marry their rapists, and of course the occasional stoning, on top of everything else. Turn this stuff over to a motivated goverment under war powers and see what they come up with.

What's more we periodically run into chatter about various Muslim groups planning to attack the US. Not to mention plans overseas to hit various high profile targets. One point made when I worked for the casinos was that both of them (Mohegan Sun and Foxwoods) had assault plans uncovered since they were relatively open areas full of civilians. Some of the plans included things like having a guy infect himself with a lethal virus and then come in to gamble to spread it around, or to simply assemble bombs in some of the hotel rooms and try and collapse the Grand Pequot Tower down onto the rest of the casino.

Plans like that are exactly why games like "Rainbow Six Vegas" get made (though in this case the plans were for Connecticut). Black Ops. being what they are, you typcially only see stuff like this happen when someone fails or doesn't find out about it. The biggest problem with many anti-terrorist video games though is that rather than having a small group of Americans holding out against large groups of terrorists in exciting gun battles, it's either over with quickly and quietly (stopped before a couple of people can do something, and then as few people are told as possible to prevent a panic) or a couple of people blow up a building or whatever.

To put things into perspective if one is to argue this started back in the 1970s, then maybe if the culture decides to massively reform (as in totally redefine the religion and lifestyle), disarm, and then chills out for another four decades, then I could see a valid complaint being made about this. Right now though, when you have thousands of people showing up in gatherings to listen to people chant about mass murder and then start chanting about killing Americans (or whomever) don't be bloody surprised when the target group doesn't like you, especially when stuff gets blown up, and we keep finding plans to blow other stuff up. Even if one argues a lot of those plans are fake, to get a rise out of people, well congrats... it's working. The portrayal in pop culture is part of how the backlash takes place. Heck, I think it's a sign how tolerant the Western World is in general that your
just now seeing stuff on quite this level.

At any rate, these are my thoughts. But then again I'm also the guy who thought they shouldn't have backed down on making that "Seven Days In Fallujah" game.

I would say that Islamics who don't like this kind of pop culture would probably do well to head down to "The Middle East" and do more to change minds instead of whining about it to Americans. They won't of course because here they can make noise and we're tolerant enough to still listen. They actually head back to The Muslim World they are as likely as not to get themselves gutted which sort of makes the point. Walk into one of those big rallies in a city square with a bullhorn and broadcast over the theocrat of the week, saying "Maybe we should chill out, and you know work with America, and change ourselves to get along better with the world community... let's ignore this guy and put down our guns!" or whatever and I doubt your going to be walking out. That's like wearing a KKK uniform to a "Black Power" rally, except instead of a fringe it's the mainstream culture which is why it's going on that way.

Enough rambling, and my apologies to those who this offends. Such are my thoughts and observations from over the years. I don't want to get too bogged down in a political debate
( I let a few of these slide recently because I said my piece and it would have become endless ).

Argueing against the portrayal of Muslims in pop culture, is like crying about the portrayal of Italian organized crime figures in games like "Mafia 2", or various inquisitions in Europe lead at various times by sweetheards like Torquemanda . The differance is of course that this is going on now. If Muslims find themselves looking into that mirror and not liking what they see, it's up to them to change, people shouldn't just ignore reality because some sociological group doesn't like it. Ignoring muslim culture because it upsets some Arabs is like trying to say The Mafia doesn't exist because it upsets some Italians, or trying to pretend that at one time it wasn't a much bigger threat that controlled large portions of the country, and even took over cities outright (Al Capone).
 

JaymesFogarty

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Stagetree said:
I thought Saladin Ahmed wrote an excellent article.
Snip

Yes, there's killing in these games--hell, Altair is an assassin--but there's a great emphasis on thinking your way through a problem, rather than mindless killing.

I may be stretching here, but it seems that videogames that require a certain type of creative thought know that Muslims are people too, whereas videogames that emphasis hair-trigger reactions (and in the case of a stealth em ups and RTTs, a different kind of creative thought) dehumanize their enemies. And if the enemy happens to be Muslim, it doesn't matter. He's just another target.

Talk about terminating with extreme prejudice.
The first Assassin'S Creed focusses on one Muslim that tries to control the masses, and another Muslim saving possibly the world from him. I don't think that's bad in any way. Would people's opinions change if they were jewish, or buddists?
 

martin's a madman

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If people want to cast a Muslim as a Villian and make him the biggest dick in the world, who eats babies and poops on the American flag while vowing Jihad on a fly that lands in his soup, then let them.
If there is a recurring theme of Muslims being portrayed in a "bad-light" then the only issue is that no one is casting original villians.