My beef with piracy.

[SPCF]

Eh,I honestly couldn't care, downloading files is completely legal in Canada (not uploading though) XD

 

[infinity_turtles]

library

How about this justification:

Libraries are places that host other people's intellectual property that you can view for free while the creator makes no money off of it, whether you enjoy it or not.

Torrent sites are places that host other people's intellectual property that you can view for free while the creator makes no money off of it, whether you enjoy it or not.

There are only three real differences; amount of content, ease of access, social acceptance.

That is..........a very good point. Never thought of that...

No. That's not a good point. That isn't how libraries work. With libraries, you don't retain the intellectual property you borrow. It has to be returned or you have to pay for it. Libraries also obtain their content through a distributor under license for the owner of the intellectual property. The content was made available to the library for rental purposes with the informed consent of the creator. If the creator of the original work doesn't want the book/movie/whatever in the library, they don't distribute it to libraries.

Torrent sites distribute intellectual property without consent of the creator or appropriate license holder. They distribute full copies of the content for indefinite use. Most software distributed by torrent sites comes with an EULA which represents a binding contract that is being broken by distributing the software and usually comes packaged with the means to bypass DRM which is also illegal.

Summary: Libraries have permission from the content's creator. Torrent sites don't.

....Hahaha! That's hilarious and false. Go to a public library and ask if they accept book donations. If they don't have that book already, you really think they're going to call up the author? Granted, if an author asked for a library to remove their books, they probably would, but to say they ask permission is ridiculous. Also, renting means to pay for, and you don't pay anything in a public library. You borrow it, and if you want to keep holding it you have to check back in after the alotted time and check it back out again. You can for all intents and purposes keep it indefinitely. For even more fun, let's try talking about a school library.

Anyway, indefinite use is covered by ease of access. Other laws being broken are covered by social acceptability.(Lets also add that if I buy a book I can scribble on it and sell that copy to someone to see how stupid those laws are) And as for permission, I worked in a library long enough to know that's just false. They take donations, add them to the directory, and toss it onto a shelf.

 

[chozo_hybrid]

How about this justification:

Libraries are places that host other people's intellectual property that you can view for free while the creator makes no money off of it, whether you enjoy it or not.

Actually, libraries must purchase the books.

Well someone had to buy the original to be pirated.So it is kinda like a library.

Except the library is covered by laws etc and has permission, also your membership to a library tends to state things about stealing, copying etc.

 

[Frequen-Z]

I like the library analogy. It works for me.

Besides, TV shows and songs are played on television and radio for free anyway.

 

[Matt_LRR]

Eh,I honestly couldn't care, downloading files is completely legal in Canada (not uploading though) XD

Not for long it won't be. go look up bill C-32. (The Canadian Copyright Modernization Act)

-m

 

[Nmil-ek]

Wow some people really need to chill and get out alittle more, no point getting wound up over things you have no control over and will never change, as long as we have the internet we will have piracy in one form or another. Im sure when your 15 minutes from your deathbed the last thing youll think of is "thank god I never pirated anything!"

Relax.

 

[crudus]

How about this justification:

Libraries are places that host other people's intellectual property that you can view for free while the creator makes no money off of it, whether you enjoy it or not.

Torrent sites are places that host other people's intellectual property that you can view for free while the creator makes no money off of it, whether you enjoy it or not.

There are only three real differences; amount of content, ease of access, social acceptance.

There is a difference there though: Torrents copy the information whereas with a library there is always the same amount(unless the libraries buys more). With a library you borrow a book and bring it back for the next person to read and you cannot read it anymore. With a torrent you just keep a copy and never return it and enjoy it forever.

 

[Cid Silverwing]

How about this justification:

Libraries are places that host other people's intellectual property that you can view for free while the creator makes no money off of it, whether you enjoy it or not.

Torrent sites are places that host other people's intellectual property that you can view for free while the creator makes no money off of it, whether you enjoy it or not.

There are only three real differences; amount of content, ease of access, social acceptance.

And with this intellectually superior argument, this thread has no further discussion value.

 

[infinity_turtles]

How about this justification:

Libraries are places that host other people's intellectual property that you can view for free while the creator makes no money off of it, whether you enjoy it or not.

Torrent sites are places that host other people's intellectual property that you can view for free while the creator makes no money off of it, whether you enjoy it or not.

There are only three real differences; amount of content, ease of access, social acceptance.

There is a difference there though: Torrents copy the information whereas with a library there is always the same amount(unless the libraries buys more). With a library you borrow a book and bring it back for the next person to read and you cannot read it anymore. With a torrent you just keep a copy and never return it and enjoy it forever.

I file that under ease of access, and most people don't read or play games multiple times, making the point relatively insignificant to the scheme of things. And of course you can keep checking out the same book.

How about this justification:

Libraries are places that host other people's intellectual property that you can view for free while the creator makes no money off of it, whether you enjoy it or not.

Actually, libraries must purchase the books.

Well someone had to buy the original to be pirated.So it is kinda like a library.

Except the library is covered by laws etc and has permission, also your membership to a library tends to state things about stealing, copying etc.

Laws are simply social acceptability being enforced, so I've already covered that. The membership covering stealing makes sense, since that actually requires you to deprive someone else of the item. As for copying, well, everything I have to say regarding torrent sites=library also applies to checking out=copying more or less.

 

[chozo_hybrid]

Laws are simply social acceptability being enforced, so I've already covered that. The membership covering stealing makes sense, since that actually requires you to deprive someone else of the item. As for copying, well, everything I have to say regarding torrent sites=library also applies to checking out=copying more or less.

I'm sorry, but that basically says nothing is wrong, it's only seen as wrong because society dictates it so. Basically, when you get down to it. Pirating IS wrong, no if buts or maybes. Making excuses or comparisons for it doesn't make it any less criminal.

I'm sorry, but only thieves make excuses to keep stealing. And yes, copying is still taking, just like making counterfeit money is still considered bad, or making knock offs of brand products. Because while you may not be directly taking, they may not lose anything per say, but you gain without paying for it.

 

[crudus]

I file that under ease of access, and most people don't read or play games multiple times, making the point relatively insignificant to the scheme of things. And of course you can keep checking out the same book.

You missed the point entirely. With libraries there are the same number of books(again, assuming the library doesn't buy more). With torrents the source is just copied thus a potential infinite copies. Unless you own the copyrights[footnote]Copyright is the set of exclusive rights granted to the author or creator of an original work, including the right to copy, distribute and adapt the work. (wikipedia)[/footnote] then distributing and/or copying a book or a file is illegal.

 

[chozo_hybrid]

I file that under ease of access, and most people don't read or play games multiple times, making the point relatively insignificant to the scheme of things. And of course you can keep checking out the same book.

You missed the point entirely. With libraries there are the same number of books(again, assuming the library doesn't buy more). With torrents the source is just copied thus a potential infinite copies. Unless you own the copyrights then distributing and/or copying a book or a file is illegal.

Agreed, there is no gray area when when it comes to this, people just want to be able to steal without feeling guilty, to try justify it.

 

[Arkhangelsk]

Now, the thread about the Obama administration's plans is filled with enough examples of this that I refuse to return there.

Spoiler

People's privacy should not be invaded. However personally I'm surprised the internet isn't monitored more strongly than it already is. In England I believe your internet history is held by the government for 12 months then deleted, should they need to use it against you.

This is not invading people's privacy. This is keeping people's internet history in the short term so that they have it if you commit a crime and they need evidence. If they didn't do this then the law which governs us would be unenforcable.

What people seem to be after is a world where the internet is left unfettered, because breaking the law is of greater benefit to Hollywood, they just don't realise it because they're too busy with their money baths.

But anyway.
My problem with piracy is the justifications, the "It's try before you buy / free advertising", the "It's because prices are too expensive" excuses.

I'm sorry, but that is like somebody driving away from a petrol station without paying because they want to protest against high petrol prices.

Sure, you get your petrol, until the police show up and arrest you. They don't arrest you because you represent a threat to bureaucracy and they want you silenced, they arrest you because you committed a crime. You didn't pay the price for the petrol you used.

Joe Biden called it "theft". It's not hyperbole - THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT IT IS. You are taking a service without paying.

If you want a CD but don't want to pay the full price - just wait a few months. CDs decrease in price. Same with DVDs, same with games.
If you don't want the publishers and record companies to get rich, you can buy one second hand.
If you still believe yourself to be vindicated, feel free to argue with me - if you can find a way of proving this without using any of the above I shall be impressed.

(Oh, and anyone who says "Everybody does it" as an excuse...you have been warned.)

I'm anticipating this thread devolving quickly into a flame war and being locked. Please attempt to prove me wrong.

The issue is not that it isn't theft. The issue is that technology has denmocratized consumption, and the companies at the heart of the issue have failed to react, adapt, and cater to these new consumption methods in an effective way.

Media companies are adamant about retaining their control over the consumtion habits of customers, and desire to direct the path of the industry themselves.

The fact of the matter is that piracy, theft or not, DOES serve a functional purpose for consumers aside from simply taking shit they want without paying.

The ability to try before you buy, as it were (which, as evidenced by the consumption patterns of pirates, is a pretty common pattern of behavior), allows customers to identify and expose themselves to more media, and to more knowledgably direct their money towards artists and content creators that they feel have earned it. The democratization of media allows consumers to identify products they don't like, preventing them from wasting money,a nd allowing them to spend that money on products they do.

Legal Consumption in this manner isn't inherently costing media companies money. More simply it's made consurmers much more avid, efficient consumers of media, and has granted us a much greater ability to direct industry trends.

Under the old model of content distribution, media finding and exploration present HUGE financial obstacles consumers. This is what generated the pop superstar back in the 50's and 60's. With those obstacles being torn down, the industry has seen a huge surge of indie artists, and unknowns getting significant exposure. The industry is seeing fewer big, easily bankable stars, but the tradeoff is thousands upon thousands of niche markets, scrambling for more.

The industry needs to work at monetizing and catering to this new breath of taste, and they need to bereak down the barries of media exploration. Understand that people want to know what they're spending their money on before that money is spent, and the industry needs to find ways of providing that access to information in a low-investment way.

It's not impossible to rebuild an industry model around consumer need. But the way to curb piracy, and wrap these people into the fold is decidedly not to call them all criminals and sue them into the dark ages.

It's also not to cling vehemently to a distribution model that was born there.


A person who pirates 1000 CDs, but buys 100 of their favorites is doing a great deal more to support the industry than a person who bought 5 or 6 nickelback records, and Big Shiny Tunes 3.

-m

edit: it's also worthy of note - in the old model it's up to the industry to find, identify, and build fanbases for artists. Under the new model we do that for them.

I love you for that post. You scribbled down my thoughts in an understandable form.

 

[crazypsyko666]

This is the problem that I have with piracy.

http://www.cracked.com/funny-4003-the-pirate-bay/

Also, I'm broke. I would love to pay for every game that I play. I would love to buy every console. I'd also like for there to be world peace, give every homeless person ten thousand dollars, and be out of high school. Like it or not, I can't do any of those. In fact, I can hardly buy one game a year with the money I end up with. I don't pretend I'm not stealing, but I'm playing the industries games, standing up for them in public, and hopefully supporting them later on in life. I hope they can support me for just a little bit longer.

 

[infinity_turtles]

Laws are simply social acceptability being enforced, so I've already covered that. The membership covering stealing makes sense, since that actually requires you to deprive someone else of the item. As for copying, well, everything I have to say regarding torrent sites=library also applies to checking out=copying more or less.

I'm sorry, but that basically says nothing is wrong, it's only seen as wrong because society dictates it so. Basically, when you get down to it. Pirating IS wrong, no if buts or maybes. Making excuses or comparisons for it doesn't make it any less criminal.

I'm sorry, but only thieves make excuses to keep stealing.

No, it's saying that something being illegal doesn't make it wrong. Harming someone else out of materialistic desire or sadism is what makes something wrong.(I actually believe in subjective morality, but that's how I define right and wrong) Laws aren't automatically right or just after all. The comparisons whole purpose is to point out that Libraries are more or less the same thing, only legal. If they were illegal, that wouldn't suddenly make libraries wrong, would it?

 

[chozo_hybrid]

Laws are simply social acceptability being enforced, so I've already covered that. The membership covering stealing makes sense, since that actually requires you to deprive someone else of the item. As for copying, well, everything I have to say regarding torrent sites=library also applies to checking out=copying more or less.

I'm sorry, but that basically says nothing is wrong, it's only seen as wrong because society dictates it so. Basically, when you get down to it. Pirating IS wrong, no if buts or maybes. Making excuses or comparisons for it doesn't make it any less criminal.

I'm sorry, but only thieves make excuses to keep stealing.

No, it's saying that something being illegal doesn't make it wrong. Harming someone else out of materialistic desire or sadism is what makes something wrong.(I actually believe in subjective morality, but that's how I define right and wrong) Laws aren't automatically right or just after all. The comparisons whole purpose is to point out that Libraries are more or less the same thing, only legal. If they were illegal, that wouldn't suddenly make libraries wrong, would it?

The law may not be right all the time, but ignoring them and going against them on that principle only proves you to be just as bad as they are. If they were illegal, then yes, what they are doing would be wrong as it is against the law.

 

[infinity_turtles]

I file that under ease of access, and most people don't read or play games multiple times, making the point relatively insignificant to the scheme of things. And of course you can keep checking out the same book.

You missed the point entirely. With libraries there are the same number of books(again, assuming the library doesn't buy more). With torrents the source is just copied thus a potential infinite copies. Unless you own the copyrights[footnote]Copyright is the set of exclusive rights granted to the author or creator of an original work, including the right to copy, distribute and adapt the work. (wikipedia)[/footnote] then distributing and/or copying a book or a file is illegal.

No, infinite copies is only a problem because it means infinite access. For most books in a library, you only need one copy because that's all anyone will every want at once. A book being out when someone wants it is one hell of a rarity, but that's probably because no one ever goes to the library anymore. Well, that and most of their books come from donations, which means they have plenty of the popular ones. Also, again, legality doesn't define right and wrong. It just... doesn't. Having to actually point that out makes me feel dirty.

 

[Tipsy Giant]

Now, the thread about the Obama administration's plans is filled with enough examples of this that I refuse to return there.

Spoiler

People's privacy should not be invaded. However personally I'm surprised the internet isn't monitored more strongly than it already is. In England I believe your internet history is held by the government for 12 months then deleted, should they need to use it against you.

This is not invading people's privacy. This is keeping people's internet history in the short term so that they have it if you commit a crime and they need evidence. If they didn't do this then the law which governs us would be unenforcable.

What people seem to be after is a world where the internet is left unfettered, because breaking the law is of greater benefit to Hollywood, they just don't realise it because they're too busy with their money baths.

But anyway.
My problem with piracy is the justifications, the "It's try before you buy / free advertising", the "It's because prices are too expensive" excuses.

I'm sorry, but that is like somebody driving away from a petrol station without paying because they want to protest against high petrol prices.

Sure, you get your petrol, until the police show up and arrest you. They don't arrest you because you represent a threat to bureaucracy and they want you silenced, they arrest you because you committed a crime. You didn't pay the price for the petrol you used.

Joe Biden called it "theft". It's not hyperbole - THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT IT IS. You are taking a service without paying.

If you want a CD but don't want to pay the full price - just wait a few months. CDs decrease in price. Same with DVDs, same with games.
If you don't want the publishers and record companies to get rich, you can buy one second hand.
If you still believe yourself to be vindicated, feel free to argue with me - if you can find a way of proving this without using any of the above I shall be impressed.

(Oh, and anyone who says "Everybody does it" as an excuse...you have been warned.)

I'm anticipating this thread devolving quickly into a flame war and being locked. Please attempt to prove me wrong.

In every example used against piracy there is an analogy using a physical commodity, well downloads aren't physical commodities and no-one loses out.

Trying to hold on to an old way of pricing and distributing instead of embracing technology results in piracy

 

[Pyode]

How about this justification:

Libraries are places that host other people's intellectual property that you can view for free while the creator makes no money off of it, whether you enjoy it or not.

Torrent sites are places that host other people's intellectual property that you can view for free while the creator makes no money off of it, whether you enjoy it or not.

There are only three real differences; amount of content, ease of access, social acceptance.

The problem with this is that, yes, you can continue to check that same book out indefinitely but, while you have that one book out, no one else can read it.

Pirating is more akin to going to a book store, buying a book, and then using a photocopier to make 100 copies and handing the copies out to all of your friends.

I like the library analogy. It works for me.

Besides, TV shows and songs are played on television and radio for free anyway.

Actually, TV and radio are not free. It's just that you don't pay for it. Companies buy adds on radio and TV in the hopes that you will buy their product or service. The money from those adds are what pay for those songs and shows.