My beef with piracy.

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Nimbus

Token Irish Guy
Oct 22, 2008
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chozo_hybrid said:
The law may not be right all the time, but ignoring them and going against them on that principle only proves you to be just as bad as they are. If they were illegal, then yes, what they are doing would be wrong as it is against the law.
I disagree entirely. In my mind, "Right" and "Legal" are two entirely different concepts, totally unrelated to one another.

In all honesty, I think most laws are pretty fucked up. So many victimless crimes...

I've got to say, this must be the least one-sided piracy argument this site has ever had. Maybe it has something to do with the time of day...
 

infinity_turtles

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chozo_hybrid said:
infinity_turtles said:
chozo_hybrid said:
infinity_turtles said:
Laws are simply social acceptability being enforced, so I've already covered that. The membership covering stealing makes sense, since that actually requires you to deprive someone else of the item. As for copying, well, everything I have to say regarding torrent sites=library also applies to checking out=copying more or less.
I'm sorry, but that basically says nothing is wrong, it's only seen as wrong because society dictates it so. Basically, when you get down to it. Pirating IS wrong, no if buts or maybes. Making excuses or comparisons for it doesn't make it any less criminal.

I'm sorry, but only thieves make excuses to keep stealing.
No, it's saying that something being illegal doesn't make it wrong. Harming someone else out of materialistic desire or sadism is what makes something wrong.(I actually believe in subjective morality, but that's how I define right and wrong) Laws aren't automatically right or just after all. The comparisons whole purpose is to point out that Libraries are more or less the same thing, only legal. If they were illegal, that wouldn't suddenly make libraries wrong, would it?
The law may not be right all the time, but ignoring them and going against them on that principle only proves you to be just as bad as they are. If they were illegal, then yes, what they are doing would be wrong as it is against the law.
If it was illegal to not shoot every kitten you see, would not obeying the law be wrong? See, extreme or not, we're talking about whether or not, as a basic underlying moral principle, something being illegal or not defines right and wrong. As a basic underlying principle, if it applies to one case, it applies to all.
 

Matt_LRR

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Nov 30, 2009
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chozo_hybrid said:
infinity_turtles said:
chozo_hybrid said:
infinity_turtles said:
Laws are simply social acceptability being enforced, so I've already covered that. The membership covering stealing makes sense, since that actually requires you to deprive someone else of the item. As for copying, well, everything I have to say regarding torrent sites=library also applies to checking out=copying more or less.
I'm sorry, but that basically says nothing is wrong, it's only seen as wrong because society dictates it so. Basically, when you get down to it. Pirating IS wrong, no if buts or maybes. Making excuses or comparisons for it doesn't make it any less criminal.

I'm sorry, but only thieves make excuses to keep stealing.
No, it's saying that something being illegal doesn't make it wrong. Harming someone else out of materialistic desire or sadism is what makes something wrong.(I actually believe in subjective morality, but that's how I define right and wrong) Laws aren't automatically right or just after all. The comparisons whole purpose is to point out that Libraries are more or less the same thing, only legal. If they were illegal, that wouldn't suddenly make libraries wrong, would it?
The law may not be right all the time, but ignoring them and going against them on that principle only proves you to be just as bad as they are. If they were illegal, then yes, what they are doing would be wrong as it is against the law.
Tomorrow you find out that a law was enacted stating that black people are to be rounded up and shot, and that any citizen who sees a black person and does not report him to the authorities for "processing" shall be subject to jail time.

Would you be wrong if you chose not to report black people to the state?

-m

(yes this is hyperbolic, but it's not like laws similar to this have never existed before.)
 

chozo_hybrid

What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets.
Jul 15, 2009
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Tipsy Giant said:
In every example used against piracy there is an analogy using a physical commodity, well downloads aren't physical commodities and no-one loses out.

Trying to hold on to an old way of pricing and distributing instead of embracing technology results in piracy
Yeah, that's just an excuse people who don't want to pay for them use to get away with it. No, they technically don't lose anything, but if the games weren't pirated and you had to buy them to play them then there's a good chance they would have more sales. Those people who say "Well, I was never going to buy it anyway." are usually full of crap and furthermore, if a game is good enough for you to pirate and play through the whole way, then it's good enough to buy. No one wastes hours on something they hate aside from work.

Oh, yes. How dare they try sell things in the general manner that has proved to work for hundreds of years./sarcasm. Not everyone wants to buy and get games through things like Steam, because like me, there are other people who have an amount of bandwidth a month, and I don't want to spend several gigs on getting games when they could be used for playing them online. A prefer to have a physical copy for that and other reasons.
 

infinity_turtles

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Pyode said:
infinity_turtles said:
How about this justification:

Libraries are places that host other people's intellectual property that you can view for free while the creator makes no money off of it, whether you enjoy it or not.

Torrent sites are places that host other people's intellectual property that you can view for free while the creator makes no money off of it, whether you enjoy it or not.

There are only three real differences; amount of content, ease of access, social acceptance.
The problem with this is that, yes, you can continue to check that same book out indefinitely but while you have to book out no one else can read it.

Pirating is more akin to going to a book store, buying a book, and then using a photocopier to make 100 copies and handing the copies out to all of your friends.
I try to avoid copy pasting my arguments, but this time it works perfectly for me. But I'll add that perhaps a public library should be compared to a low traffic torrent site. But that shouldn't matter if we're arguing the principle of the act itself. "No, infinite copies is only a problem because it means infinite access. For most books in a library, you only need one copy because that's all anyone will every want at once. A book being out when someone wants it is one hell of a rarity, but that's probably because no one ever goes to the library anymore. Well, that and most of their books come from donations, which means they have plenty of the popular ones."
 

Burst6

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Mar 16, 2009
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Yes, piracy is stealing.
yes, companies need profits from games.
yes, piracy reduces profit by a small amount.
no, profits are not worth more than a persons rights.


With all this crap being proposed nowadays, I'm starting to believe everyone wants to be like china.
 

ScruffyTheJanitor

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Jul 17, 2009
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I doubt that many people remember the days but the pirate radios that were, ok they were illegal for simply broadcasting without authority, but they did play out songs that were not theirs to broadcast and in many cases that did more good than harm to the actual artists. People have heard their songs and would consider buying them.

So.. trying before you buy is actually a valid point. I myself feel that the people making songs/games or whatever have to earn my money, instead of coaxing it out only to disappoint me. However, on the main part, I stick to what I've heard from like-minded friends instead of farsing about with keygens and crack and the suchlike. Can't say I pirate anything really these days.
 

Matt_LRR

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Nov 30, 2009
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Burst6 said:
Yes, piracy is stealing.
yes, companies need profits from games.
yes, piracy reduces profit by a small amount.
no, profits are not worth more than a persons rights.
would you do the world a favour, and tell that to health insurance companies?

-m
 

infinity_turtles

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chozo_hybrid said:
Tipsy Giant said:
In every example used against piracy there is an analogy using a physical commodity, well downloads aren't physical commodities and no-one loses out.

Trying to hold on to an old way of pricing and distributing instead of embracing technology results in piracy
Yeah, that's just an excuse people who don't want to pay for them use to get away with it. No, they technically don't lose anything, but if the games weren't pirated and you had to buy them to play them then there's a good chance they would have more sales. Those people who say "Well, I was never going to buy it anyway." are usually full of crap and furthermore, if a game is good enough for you to pirate and play through the whole way, then it's good enough to buy. No one wastes hours on something they hate aside from work.
Worth my time and worth my time and my money are two very different values my friend. Especially since many people have a lot more time then they have money. Playing the game and not buying it doesn't stop someone from telling their friend with more money that "Hey this game is awesome" though.
 

chozo_hybrid

What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets.
Jul 15, 2009
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Matt_LRR said:
chozo_hybrid said:
infinity_turtles said:
chozo_hybrid said:
infinity_turtles said:
Laws are simply social acceptability being enforced, so I've already covered that. The membership covering stealing makes sense, since that actually requires you to deprive someone else of the item. As for copying, well, everything I have to say regarding torrent sites=library also applies to checking out=copying more or less.
I'm sorry, but that basically says nothing is wrong, it's only seen as wrong because society dictates it so. Basically, when you get down to it. Pirating IS wrong, no if buts or maybes. Making excuses or comparisons for it doesn't make it any less criminal.

I'm sorry, but only thieves make excuses to keep stealing.
No, it's saying that something being illegal doesn't make it wrong. Harming someone else out of materialistic desire or sadism is what makes something wrong.(I actually believe in subjective morality, but that's how I define right and wrong) Laws aren't automatically right or just after all. The comparisons whole purpose is to point out that Libraries are more or less the same thing, only legal. If they were illegal, that wouldn't suddenly make libraries wrong, would it?
The law may not be right all the time, but ignoring them and going against them on that principle only proves you to be just as bad as they are. If they were illegal, then yes, what they are doing would be wrong as it is against the law.
Tomorrow you find out that a law was enacted stating that black people are to be rounded up and shot, and that any citizen who sees a black person and does not report him to the authorities for "processing" shall be subject to jail time.

Would you be wrong if you chose not to report black people to the state?

-m
That is completely different from the issue here, I understand that you would have picked that extreme example in a way to make me look like a fool in terms of my previous statement. I was generalizing yes, but I was referring more to the persons statement that I replied to.

So I'm not going to answer to what you said, because A. I think that's a disgusting comparison and B. Choosing either answer makes me a horrible person for either breaking the law, or getting someone killed.

infinity_turtles said:
chozo_hybrid said:
Tipsy Giant said:
In every example used against piracy there is an analogy using a physical commodity, well downloads aren't physical commodities and no-one loses out.

Trying to hold on to an old way of pricing and distributing instead of embracing technology results in piracy
Yeah, that's just an excuse people who don't want to pay for them use to get away with it. No, they technically don't lose anything, but if the games weren't pirated and you had to buy them to play them then there's a good chance they would have more sales. Those people who say "Well, I was never going to buy it anyway." are usually full of crap and furthermore, if a game is good enough for you to pirate and play through the whole way, then it's good enough to buy. No one wastes hours on something they hate aside from work.
Worth my time and worth my time and my money are two very different values my friend. Especially since many people have a lot more time then they have money. Playing the game and not buying it doesn't stop someone from telling their friend with more money that "Hey this game is awesome" though.
Then maybe someone should pick up a cheaper hobby, I'm sorry but that argument doesn't convince me.

Sure, it means they can spread the "word" I guess, but that means bugger all.
 

Matt_LRR

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Nov 30, 2009
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chozo_hybrid said:
Matt_LRR said:
chozo_hybrid said:
infinity_turtles said:
chozo_hybrid said:
infinity_turtles said:
Laws are simply social acceptability being enforced, so I've already covered that. The membership covering stealing makes sense, since that actually requires you to deprive someone else of the item. As for copying, well, everything I have to say regarding torrent sites=library also applies to checking out=copying more or less.
I'm sorry, but that basically says nothing is wrong, it's only seen as wrong because society dictates it so. Basically, when you get down to it. Pirating IS wrong, no if buts or maybes. Making excuses or comparisons for it doesn't make it any less criminal.

I'm sorry, but only thieves make excuses to keep stealing.
No, it's saying that something being illegal doesn't make it wrong. Harming someone else out of materialistic desire or sadism is what makes something wrong.(I actually believe in subjective morality, but that's how I define right and wrong) Laws aren't automatically right or just after all. The comparisons whole purpose is to point out that Libraries are more or less the same thing, only legal. If they were illegal, that wouldn't suddenly make libraries wrong, would it?
The law may not be right all the time, but ignoring them and going against them on that principle only proves you to be just as bad as they are. If they were illegal, then yes, what they are doing would be wrong as it is against the law.
Tomorrow you find out that a law was enacted stating that black people are to be rounded up and shot, and that any citizen who sees a black person and does not report him to the authorities for "processing" shall be subject to jail time.

Would you be wrong if you chose not to report black people to the state?

-m
That is completely different from the issue here, I understand that you would have picked that extreme example in a way to make me look like a fool in terms of my previous statement. I was generalizing yes, but I was referring more to the persons statement that I replied to.

So I'm not going to answer to what you said, because A. I think that's a disgusting comparison and B. Choosing either answer makes me a horrible person for either breaking the law, or getting someone killed.
You don't have to answer the question. I was simply taking apart your assertion that someone would be wrong for doing something simply because that thing is illegal.

Mission accomplished.

-m
 

infinity_turtles

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Apr 17, 2010
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chozo_hybrid said:
Matt_LRR said:
chozo_hybrid said:
infinity_turtles said:
chozo_hybrid said:
infinity_turtles said:
Laws are simply social acceptability being enforced, so I've already covered that. The membership covering stealing makes sense, since that actually requires you to deprive someone else of the item. As for copying, well, everything I have to say regarding torrent sites=library also applies to checking out=copying more or less.
I'm sorry, but that basically says nothing is wrong, it's only seen as wrong because society dictates it so. Basically, when you get down to it. Pirating IS wrong, no if buts or maybes. Making excuses or comparisons for it doesn't make it any less criminal.

I'm sorry, but only thieves make excuses to keep stealing.
No, it's saying that something being illegal doesn't make it wrong. Harming someone else out of materialistic desire or sadism is what makes something wrong.(I actually believe in subjective morality, but that's how I define right and wrong) Laws aren't automatically right or just after all. The comparisons whole purpose is to point out that Libraries are more or less the same thing, only legal. If they were illegal, that wouldn't suddenly make libraries wrong, would it?
The law may not be right all the time, but ignoring them and going against them on that principle only proves you to be just as bad as they are. If they were illegal, then yes, what they are doing would be wrong as it is against the law.
Tomorrow you find out that a law was enacted stating that black people are to be rounded up and shot, and that any citizen who sees a black person and does not report him to the authorities for "processing" shall be subject to jail time.

Would you be wrong if you chose not to report black people to the state?

-m
That is completely different from the issue here, I understand that you would have picked that extreme example in a way to make me look like a fool in terms of my previous statement. I was generalizing yes, but I was referring more to the persons statement that I replied to.

So I'm not going to answer to what you said, because A. I think that's a disgusting comparison and B. Choosing either answer makes me a horrible person for either breaking the law, or getting someone killed.
So you think not reporting them also make you a horrible person then?
 

chozo_hybrid

What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets.
Jul 15, 2009
3,479
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Matt_LRR said:
chozo_hybrid said:
Matt_LRR said:
chozo_hybrid said:
infinity_turtles said:
chozo_hybrid said:
infinity_turtles said:
Laws are simply social acceptability being enforced, so I've already covered that. The membership covering stealing makes sense, since that actually requires you to deprive someone else of the item. As for copying, well, everything I have to say regarding torrent sites=library also applies to checking out=copying more or less.
I'm sorry, but that basically says nothing is wrong, it's only seen as wrong because society dictates it so. Basically, when you get down to it. Pirating IS wrong, no if buts or maybes. Making excuses or comparisons for it doesn't make it any less criminal.

I'm sorry, but only thieves make excuses to keep stealing.
No, it's saying that something being illegal doesn't make it wrong. Harming someone else out of materialistic desire or sadism is what makes something wrong.(I actually believe in subjective morality, but that's how I define right and wrong) Laws aren't automatically right or just after all. The comparisons whole purpose is to point out that Libraries are more or less the same thing, only legal. If they were illegal, that wouldn't suddenly make libraries wrong, would it?
The law may not be right all the time, but ignoring them and going against them on that principle only proves you to be just as bad as they are. If they were illegal, then yes, what they are doing would be wrong as it is against the law.
Tomorrow you find out that a law was enacted stating that black people are to be rounded up and shot, and that any citizen who sees a black person and does not report him to the authorities for "processing" shall be subject to jail time.

Would you be wrong if you chose not to report black people to the state?

-m
That is completely different from the issue here, I understand that you would have picked that extreme example in a way to make me look like a fool in terms of my previous statement. I was generalizing yes, but I was referring more to the persons statement that I replied to.

So I'm not going to answer to what you said, because A. I think that's a disgusting comparison and B. Choosing either answer makes me a horrible person for either breaking the law, or getting someone killed.
You don't have to answer the question. I was simply taking apart your assertion that someone would be wrong for doing something simply because that thing is illegal.

Mission accomplished.

-m
I never said it wouldn't be wrong, I said I thought it was horrible. Two different things.

infinity_turtles said:
chozo_hybrid said:
Matt_LRR said:
chozo_hybrid said:
infinity_turtles said:
chozo_hybrid said:
infinity_turtles said:
Laws are simply social acceptability being enforced, so I've already covered that. The membership covering stealing makes sense, since that actually requires you to deprive someone else of the item. As for copying, well, everything I have to say regarding torrent sites=library also applies to checking out=copying more or less.
I'm sorry, but that basically says nothing is wrong, it's only seen as wrong because society dictates it so. Basically, when you get down to it. Pirating IS wrong, no if buts or maybes. Making excuses or comparisons for it doesn't make it any less criminal.

I'm sorry, but only thieves make excuses to keep stealing.
No, it's saying that something being illegal doesn't make it wrong. Harming someone else out of materialistic desire or sadism is what makes something wrong.(I actually believe in subjective morality, but that's how I define right and wrong) Laws aren't automatically right or just after all. The comparisons whole purpose is to point out that Libraries are more or less the same thing, only legal. If they were illegal, that wouldn't suddenly make libraries wrong, would it?
The law may not be right all the time, but ignoring them and going against them on that principle only proves you to be just as bad as they are. If they were illegal, then yes, what they are doing would be wrong as it is against the law.
Tomorrow you find out that a law was enacted stating that black people are to be rounded up and shot, and that any citizen who sees a black person and does not report him to the authorities for "processing" shall be subject to jail time.

Would you be wrong if you chose not to report black people to the state?

-m
That is completely different from the issue here, I understand that you would have picked that extreme example in a way to make me look like a fool in terms of my previous statement. I was generalizing yes, but I was referring more to the persons statement that I replied to.

So I'm not going to answer to what you said, because A. I think that's a disgusting comparison and B. Choosing either answer makes me a horrible person for either breaking the law, or getting someone killed.
So you think not reporting them also make you a horrible person then?
When did this become about what choice I would make in a situation that has nothing to do with this thread.

The issue is piracy and I said something to make my point, you're simply derailing that in order to make me look like an ass.

We're talking about one law to do with "stealing" and you two are turning it into something to do with getting people killed.
 

Kpt._Rob

Travelling Mushishi
Apr 22, 2009
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infinity_turtles said:
How about this justification:

Libraries are places that host other people's intellectual property that you can view for free while the creator makes no money off of it, whether you enjoy it or not.

Torrent sites are places that host other people's intellectual property that you can view for free while the creator makes no money off of it, whether you enjoy it or not.

There are only three real differences; amount of content, ease of access, social acceptance.
No no and no. There are some much bigger differences. Firstly, one of the justifications behind a library is that our societies all accept books as an almost universally good thing. We WANT people to read, because it's good for them. We all like music, movies, and games, but it's hard to argue that they're as good for you as reading is. That is to say that a library is a social service that is provided to the public because it's good for them, while piracy doesn't benefit anyone in any real way.

Second, the cost of writing a book is dwarfed by the cost of recording music, which is dwarfed by the cost of shooting a film, which is dwarfed by the cost of making a game. If you wanted to put the time and effort into it, you could write a book yourself, a book with any plot you wanted, anything you wanted could happen, you're unlimited. When you're recording music, however, unlike with writing (where the only necessary resources are either a computer or an ample supply of pens and paper) making music takes a higher investment on the part of the artist. Still, music can still be made by an individual, but when we start to talk about film, any individual is severly limited, the cost of shooting the movies we go to see at the theatre today is rediculous. And the cost of creating a videogame is beyond rediculous.

And finally, the artist whose book is in a library actually is getting paid. Granted, it's only for one copy of the book (the copy purchased by the library), but one copy sold is certainly better than nothing. And while they may not be free, there are similar rental services for movies and games, so the creator is still getting some money. Also, with the library/rental system, you are not actually getting to keep the thing you purchased. The thing pirates never seem to get through their skulls, no matter how many times I explain it, is that when you are buying a book, musical work, film, or game, you do not actually buy that work. What you're buying is a lisence to ONE copy of that work. You are free to share that one lisence, but while you're sharing it you are unable to use it yourself. Just like if you lent someone a chair, a toaster, an item of jewelery, or any other physical item that could be stolen. Libraries and rental services share their lisence. And if you buy a game and lend it to your friend, you're sharing your lisence. But if you copy the game and distribute copies to others, then you are no longer sharing your lisence, because you still have the ability to play the game while those who never purchased, borrowed, or rented a lisence are able to play it as well.
 

Tipsy Giant

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May 10, 2010
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chozo_hybrid said:
Tipsy Giant said:
In every example used against piracy there is an analogy using a physical commodity, well downloads aren't physical commodities and no-one loses out.

Trying to hold on to an old way of pricing and distributing instead of embracing technology results in piracy
Yeah, that's just an excuse people who don't want to pay for them use to get away with it. No, they technically don't lose anything, but if the games weren't pirated and you had to buy them to play them then there's a good chance they would have more sales. Those people who say "Well, I was never going to buy it anyway." are usually full of crap and furthermore, if a game is good enough for you to pirate and play through the whole way, then it's good enough to buy. No one wastes hours on something they hate aside from work.

Oh, yes. How dare they try sell things in the general manner that has proved to work for hundreds of years./sarcasm. Not everyone wants to buy and get games through things like Steam, because like me, there are other people who have an amount of bandwidth a month, and I don't want to spend several gigs on getting games when they could be used for playing them online. A prefer to have a physical copy for that and other reasons.
Here is where your problem lies, I buy things that I know are great, Mario Galaxy 2, I knew it would be great so I paid for it!

Now i'm not a big RTS fan so I pirated starcraft to see if the sequel would be worth a look, starcraft was shit IN MY OPINION so now I won't waste my money. But in your Eden I would have spent my money on starcraft hated it and would not have been able to afford MG2.
I would have wasted hours on a game I hate just because I had wasted bucks so it had better entertain.


Why is it that you never hear poor people complain about piracy?

because only rich fucks care if other rich fucks lose bucks.

contrary to your sheltered opinion not everyone can buy things regularly, I can't afford a new piece of media every month, so I spend my money on media that is truly amazing and shit will get pirated to fill the gaps
 

Matt_LRR

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Nov 30, 2009
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Konrad Curze said:
1) It is not theft. I do not give half a flying fuck how many shitty analogies you people use. Theft is taking someone elses property and thus denying them the use of it. Piracy is copying something. The original is still there, still free for the owner to use. Piracy deprives no one of anything. End of argument.
Piracy deprives creators and distributors remuneration for their work, which, last time I checked, was a "thing".

-m
 

infinity_turtles

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Apr 17, 2010
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chozo_hybrid said:
Then maybe someone should pick up a cheaper hobby, I'm sorry but that argument doesn't convince me.

Sure, it means they can spread the "word" I guess, but that means bugger all.
But the point that just because someone is willing to play a game doesn't mean they'd buy it, if they couldn't just download it, stands, right? I was only arguing that specific statement in that post.
 

Matt_LRR

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Nov 30, 2009
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chozo_hybrid said:
I never said it wouldn't be wrong, I said I thought it was horrible. Two different things.
That's rather telling.


edit: regarding the edit in your last post: this was never about making you look like an ass. It was about an appeal to authority as a source of objective morality.

I had hoped that by pointing out the obvious fallacy in it, you might reconsider your assertion, as it turns out, you went the other way, and I'm kind of mortified by that fact.


-m
 

likalaruku

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Nov 29, 2008
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I'm actually suprised no one in Hollywood has made an action drama movie about mass pirating of car gas.