Nationalism - I Can't Stand it

[Maveroid]

You know what I hate? Europeans (like moi)(I am not french though) that like to bash other countries, specifically the U.S.

'Why do we, the master race of Europeans, get involved with those stupid, dumb, fat and arrogant Americans?', says the European, 'The Americans just make the world more miserable by calling themselves heroes and involving themselves with certain topics they shouldn't get involved with'.
But, don't get me wrong, I hate Americans that bash Germany because of World War 2 or just hate Europe for some reason or another; I just started this topic like this because it mostly seemed like the Europeans did the bashing on these forums most of the time (but excuse me if you believe otherwise, I might be wrong)

I know that trying to convince anybody of anything that goes against their opinion is impossible nowadays because we are all so egocentric and have such high self-esteem (or because many of us are just people that seek attention), but lets at least try to live in spiritual peace somehow, okay?

By the way, I do not exclude myself from this in any way as I do often make some ignorant remarks about other countries as well, and I fully admit that I am egocentric and arrogant as well, but I am sure that ,if just a small group of people started looking at other countries that are being discussed and just remember that we are all not that different anymore due to the influence of the Internet and etc., we will all agree and act according to this basic principle both consciously and unconsciously.

Please, just don't insult other countries because of certain happenings in the past because we are all the same but also all different. I know that, you know that and everyone else knows that because its just part of our general understanding of the world. Do we act like we know that? No, we don't (in my opinion).

 

[SiskoBlue]

I'm in complete agreement. I used to bash other countries (especially America) for things and then it occurred to me. Most of us have no real impact on the world. Not really. You can go on and on about what the American government did here or there. Or how Germany was responsible for this or that. Or how Brits committed similar moral crimes in centuries past.

None of it has anything to do with us, the general populace. Forums discuss all these big events as if somehow they have a hand in them. We don't, we're just spectators. I've voted all my life and none of the people I choose ever won so nothing the government has done has been because of my decisions. I'd say that's true of a lot of people. I'm 99% certain no one here was alive during WWII but you'll still see Americans claiming "WE saved your assess in WWII". No, You're granddad or or grandma might have but YOU didn't.

The reason America gets picked on most is because it's the loudest, culturally speaking, and that's all. There's more American film, TV, games and books than from any other country. If France was the cultural centre of the world you'd have a lot more people discussing why the love/hate Gerard Depardieu than discussions about Bruce Willis. People talk about what they know and everyone knows something about America.

And most of this flame war crap is all because people suffer the in-groups/out-groups social phenomena. Meaning they'll promote the positives of any group they consider they belong to and point out the flaws of groups they don't belong to. And before anyone says "but I'm part of group X and I talk about how bad X is all the time?" Maybe you do but you're just putting yourself into a new group, the "People from X who disagree with the majority of X" and like to see yourself as being "alternative".

The thing is most of the groups I'm apart of I don't feel any great loyalty to. I'm a man but I can't bear double-standard treatment of genders. There's so much overlap between men and women's it's pointless focusing on the minute differences that seem to exist. And those are more socially created rather than being an actual difference. I'm Australian and I love Australia but I've travelled and there's better and worse places I've been. I now live in the UK but it's not perfect either.

I probably have a lot more in common with anybody who comes to the The Escapist forums than I do with my fellow countrymen or adopted countrymen. I don't want to be in any group, I just want everyone to get along as best we can. Speak your mind but standing on the shoulders of patriotism/nationalism or looking to start flame wars over pointless divisions in humanity just sucks the soul out everything.

 

[superbowlbound]

I try not to generalize against other nations, but I do hate a lot of things about popular American patriotism.

WW2 for example, living in Canada, we tend to think of WW2 as this global tragedy in which countries from all over the world banded together like never before to deal with a situation.

Americans seem to believe it was all just about how Hitler was bad and how America saved the day, and how the whole event is just proof of how awesome America is. Even going as far as to rewrite history(Pearl Harbour), disregard the fact that they arrived two years late when everybody else jumped in right away, and of course pretend certain armies hardly existed.(Russia anyone?)

(Pearl Harbor lrn2spell)

SORRY, sorry. Anyways. I don't know any Americans who think we single-handedly won WWII (Although I will take credit for WWI, but another tangent). I am curious what this revision of Pearl HARBOR is though. And don't forget, we get a lot of credit for a lot of reasons. We supplied ALL of the allies with tanks, planes, and guns. The American generals were the only ones who ever had successful battle plans (remember market garden?).

The war didn't really get on track until D-Day, I mean Africa was cool and all, but NO ONE cared. D-Day happened after America joined and was planned by Americans. Also what about the Pacific theater? Don't recall Europe, specifically Russia, helping out.

I'm not crazy/stupid enough to think we were the single reason for Allied victory, but don't dare act like we were just a small puzzle piece, we did a larger share than any other allied country (inb4 Russia losing 20 million people, it was incompetent generals, poor supply, and outgunned soldiers). Finally the US did not enter WWII because of Hitler and the jews, we, along with most of the world, were very racist against Jewish people and didn't really care until Pearl HARBOR was bomber.

/rant

 

[TheIronRuler]

You know what I hate? Europeans (like moi)(I am not french though) that like to bash other countries, specifically the U.S.

'Why do we, the master race of Europeans, get involved with those stupid, dumb, fat and arrogant Americans?', says the European, 'The Americans just make the world more miserable by calling themselves heroes and involving themselves with certain topics they shouldn't get involved with'.
But, don't get me wrong, I hate Americans that bash Germany because of World War 2 or just hate Europe for some reason or another; I just started this topic like this because it mostly seemed like the Europeans did the bashing on these forums most of the time (but excuse me if you believe otherwise, I might be wrong)

I know that trying to convince anybody of anything that goes against their opinion is impossible nowadays because we are all so egocentric and have such high self-esteem (or because many of us are just people that seek attention), but lets at least try to live in spiritual peace somehow, okay?

By the way, I do not exclude myself from this in any way as I do often make some ignorant remarks about other countries as well, and I fully admit that I am egocentric and arrogant as well, but I am sure that ,if just a small group of people started looking at other countries that are being discussed and just remember that we are all not that different anymore due to the influence of the Internet and etc., we will all agree and act according to this basic principle both consciously and unconsciously.

Please, just don't insult other countries because of certain happenings in the past because we are all the same but also all different. I know that, you know that and everyone else knows that because its just part of our general understanding of the world. Do we act like we know that? No, we don't (in my opinion).

.
Dude, it's human nature. Nationalism is the perquisite for sovereign nations governed by its people. Without it the people aren't united. The reason why you view most Americans in a certain way and some Americans view Europeans in another is because you think of one another as one dimensional beings. A character that only has one or two defining characteristic.
German? We won against those Nazis in WW2! British? We saved their ass in WW2!
Americans? Ha! They only meddle in politics and internal affairs of sovereign nations abroad in the name of supposed freedom! Preposterous!
While I can talk about how Indonesia is filled with sweat shops with 12 year old children in them... Really, we all put labels on countries and the people in them because WE DON'T KNOW BETTER. IF we treat every single person on this earth like a real person, with his conflicts, wants, dislikes, loves and fears, OUR HEAD WILL EXPLODE.
So we label them. The same happens to groups among our country - May is be based on Race, like Dutch talking about Antilleans, French talking about the Arabs or based on socioeconomic status like the rich class vs. the poor, labeling each other with words like "leeches" or "thieves".

 

[SonicKoala]

I try not to generalize against other nations, but I do hate a lot of things about popular American patriotism.

WW2 for example, living in Canada, we tend to think of WW2 as this global tragedy in which countries from all over the world banded together like never before to deal with a situation.

Americans seem to believe it was all just about how Hitler was bad and how America saved the day, and how the whole event is just proof of how awesome America is. Even going as far as to rewrite history(Pearl Harbour), disregard the fact that they arrived two years late when everybody else jumped in right away, and of course pretend certain armies hardly existed.(Russia anyone?)

(Pearl Harbor lrn2spell)

SORRY, sorry. Anyways. I don't know any Americans who think we single-handedly won WWII (Although I will take credit for WWI, but another tangent). I am curious what this revision of Pearl HARBOR is though. And don't forget, we get a lot of credit for a lot of reasons. We supplied ALL of the allies with tanks, planes, and guns. The American generals were the only ones who ever had successful battle plans (remember market garden?).

The war didn't really get on track until D-Day, I mean Africa was cool and all, but NO ONE cared. D-Day happened after America joined and was planned by Americans. Also what about the Pacific theater? Don't recall Europe, specifically Russia, helping out.

I'm not crazy/stupid enough to think we were the single reason for Allied victory, but don't dare act like we were just a small puzzle piece, we did a larger share than any other allied country (inb4 Russia losing 20 million people, it was incompetent generals, poor supply, and outgunned soldiers). Finally the US did not enter WWII because of Hitler and the jews, we, along with most of the world, were very racist against Jewish people and didn't really care until Pearl HARBOR was bomber.

/rant

By June 6, 1944, the Nazis were in full retreat in light of the Russian offensive, so no, saying "the war didn't really get on track until D-Day" is factually inaccurate. By June, the Russians were already halfway through Poland, and the United States did very little in terms of supplying Russia with weapons, supplies, or ammunition; yes, they did supply some, but Russia's location and general lack of ice-free ports made regular shipments prohibitively difficult.

And actually, the whole Russia losing 20 million people had a hell of a lot more to do with the sheer size of the force the Nazis used to attack Russia (approximately 3 million people) than any of the factors your listing. The war in Europe was fought and lost in Russia - this is the consensus among almost all historians of the period. I won't say anything about the war in the Pacific - that was almost entirely an American affair, no doubt.

Also, Market Garden was ultimately unsuccessful - it wasn't clear from your comment whether or not you understood that, so I'm just noting that. And, furthermore, I don't know how you can say "the American generals were the only ones with successful battle plans" when Russia managed to pretty much single-handedly defeat the Nazi war machine, despite the various technological and organizational deficiencies inherent in the Russian army at the onset of Operation Barbarossa.

 

[Grimbold]

The title says you can't stand nationalism, the rant says you can't stand anti-americanism. Those to are totally different things considering for example the fact that at least in western Europe anti-americanism tends to be most common among anti-nationalist leftist groups.
"I know that trying to convince anybody of anything that goes against their opinion is impossible nowadays"
True that. It is a problem that people had at all times made worse by the internet because you can simply leave the discussion when your arguments get invalidated.

 

[kickassfrog]

I try not to generalize against other nations, but I do hate a lot of things about popular American patriotism.

WW2 for example, living in Canada, we tend to think of WW2 as this global tragedy in which countries from all over the world banded together like never before to deal with a situation.

Americans seem to believe it was all just about how Hitler was bad and how America saved the day, and how the whole event is just proof of how awesome America is. Even going as far as to rewrite history(Pearl Harbour), disregard the fact that they arrived two years late when everybody else jumped in right away, and of course pretend certain armies hardly existed.(Russia anyone?)

(Pearl Harbor lrn2spell)

SORRY, sorry. Anyways. I don't know any Americans who think we single-handedly won WWII (Although I will take credit for WWI, but another tangent). I am curious what this revision of Pearl HARBOR is though. And don't forget, we get a lot of credit for a lot of reasons. We supplied ALL of the allies with tanks, planes, and guns. The American generals were the only ones who ever had successful battle plans (remember market garden?).

The war didn't really get on track until D-Day, I mean Africa was cool and all, but NO ONE cared. D-Day happened after America joined and was planned by Americans. Also what about the Pacific theater? Don't recall Europe, specifically Russia, helping out.

I'm not crazy/stupid enough to think we were the single reason for Allied victory, but don't dare act like we were just a small puzzle piece, we did a larger share than any other allied country (inb4 Russia losing 20 million people, it was incompetent generals, poor supply, and outgunned soldiers). Finally the US did not enter WWII because of Hitler and the jews, we, along with most of the world, were very racist against Jewish people and didn't really care until Pearl HARBOR was bomber.

/rant

Supplied (read: sold) was somewhat of a misnomer there. If Pearl Harbour hadn't happened you would have just been out-and-out war profiteering. In fact, several european nations have only finished paying their debt back recently, or just had it called off because, well, common sense really.

I'm sure we can all appreciate the help of the Americans in certain points of the war, but frankly, you do seem to have missed a lot of the fighting and dieing millions of French, British, and Russian soldiers (as well as a lot of the smaller nations of Europe) did during the first few years of WW2, while you were making a fortune in sales of ammo- if it hadn't been for that war the USA would have still been in a recession.

You can't come in all guns blazing when all the other armies are so tired of 4 years of consecutively grinding each other down, then claim to do all the work. If some guys are having a fight in a car park, you don't sell one side some bats, then drive in at the end and run over the losing side with your car.

 

[kickassfrog]

I try not to generalize against other nations, but I do hate a lot of things about popular American patriotism.

WW2 for example, living in Canada, we tend to think of WW2 as this global tragedy in which countries from all over the world banded together like never before to deal with a situation.

Americans seem to believe it was all just about how Hitler was bad and how America saved the day, and how the whole event is just proof of how awesome America is. Even going as far as to rewrite history(Pearl Harbour), disregard the fact that they arrived two years late when everybody else jumped in right away, and of course pretend certain armies hardly existed.(Russia anyone?)

(Pearl Harbor lrn2spell)

SORRY, sorry. Anyways. I don't know any Americans who think we single-handedly won WWII (Although I will take credit for WWI, but another tangent). I am curious what this revision of Pearl HARBOR is though. And don't forget, we get a lot of credit for a lot of reasons. We supplied ALL of the allies with tanks, planes, and guns. The American generals were the only ones who ever had successful battle plans (remember market garden?).

The war didn't really get on track until D-Day, I mean Africa was cool and all, but NO ONE cared. D-Day happened after America joined and was planned by Americans. Also what about the Pacific theater? Don't recall Europe, specifically Russia, helping out.

I'm not crazy/stupid enough to think we were the single reason for Allied victory, but don't dare act like we were just a small puzzle piece, we did a larger share than any other allied country (inb4 Russia losing 20 million people, it was incompetent generals, poor supply, and outgunned soldiers). Finally the US did not enter WWII because of Hitler and the jews, we, along with most of the world, were very racist against Jewish people and didn't really care until Pearl HARBOR was bomber.

/rant

By June 6, 1944, the Nazis were in full retreat in light of the Russian offensive, so no, saying "the war didn't really get on track until D-Day" is factually inaccurate. By June, the Russians were already halfway through Poland, and the United States did very little in terms of supplying Russia with weapons, supplies, or ammunition; yes, they did supply some, but Russia's location and general lack of ice-free ports made regular shipments prohibitively difficult.

And actually, the whole Russia losing 20 million people had a hell of a lot more to do with the sheer size of the force the Nazis used to attack Russia (approximately 3 million people) than any of the factors your listing. The war in Europe was fought and lost in Russia - this is the consensus among almost all historians of the period. I won't say anything about the war in the Pacific - that was almost entirely an American affair, no doubt.

Also, Market Garden was ultimately unsuccessful - it wasn't clear from your comment whether or not you understood that, so I'm just noting that. And, furthermore, I don't know how you can say "the American generals were the only ones with successful battle plans" when Russia managed to pretty much single-handedly defeat the Nazi war machine, despite the various technological and organizational deficiencies inherent in the Russian army at the onset of Operation Barbarossa.

To be fair, winter would have helped the russians out a lot as well. It is one of their oldest allies.


Napoleon marched into Moscow, which no army since has managed.

 

[Best of the 3]

I quite like Nationalism in the sense that it creats great humour, as does many dark / controversial subjects. Seriously, call me a tea drinking ponse for all I care. Great jokes come from stereotypes. =P

Nationalism to insult is bad however, I am against that.

(Can't tell if I'm getting nationalism / xenophobia mixed up. Can't tell if they're the same thing any more. Note to self, never post on this site with booze, especially in touchy subject threads XD)

 

[Phasmal]

(Pearl Harbor lrn2spell)

HARBOUR is the British spelling of HARBOR.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English_spelling_differences#-our.2C_-or

 

[Thaluikhain]

Unfortunately, it's often difficult to determine between nationalism, or patriotism, or having concerns about a nation not your own.

There are legitimate concerns to be raised about things without them being simple attacks for the sake of attacking.

 

[ablac]

Nationalists are jut people who think their country is the bees knees and wont shut up about it and that because its so great they can treat the rest of the world like shit. Its bad no matter who it is. Scottish nationalists have been all over the news as they have a realistic chance of getting an independent Scotland yet want to saddle all Scottish debt with Britain. Twats. Anyone who wants to divide people by something as wide reaching and vague as nationality are morons. Patriotism is fine but patriotism is not making sure anyone who isnt from where your from knows that your country is better than theres.

 

[ablac]

Nationalists are jut people who think their country is the bees knees and wont shut up about it and that because its so great they can treat the rest of the world like shit. Its bad no matter who it is. Scottish nationalists have been all over the news as they have a realistic chance of getting an independent Scotland yet want to saddle all Scottish debt with Britain. Twats. Anyone who wants to divide people by something as wide reaching and vague as nationality are morons. Patriotism is fine but patriotism is not making sure anyone who isnt from where your from knows that your country is better than theres.

 

[Terminate421]

I try not to generalize against other nations, but I do hate a lot of things about popular American patriotism.

WW2 for example, living in Canada, we tend to think of WW2 as this global tragedy in which countries from all over the world banded together like never before to deal with a situation.

Americans seem to believe it was all just about how Hitler was bad and how America saved the day, and how the whole event is just proof of how awesome America is. Even going as far as to rewrite history(Pearl Harbour), disregard the fact that they arrived two years late when everybody else jumped in right away, and of course pretend certain armies hardly existed.(Russia anyone?)

Actually we learned about how the Soviet Union signed a sort of "Treaty" with Germany so they could not fight each other, until Hitler was a dick and went for Stalingrad.

The battle for Stalingrad cost more Soviet Soldiers than any other battle in the war. Why? Out dated weaponry and desperation to capture Stalingrad.

We don't pretend shit, just we look like idiots due to the Cold War. Etc.

I don't mind people being a patriot, you love your country. There isn't an issue with hanging an American flag here. Other cultures may see it odd but that shouldn't make us use insults towards one another, but it does anger me a bit to see someone from Switzerland call us out just because we have idiots running around in our country and we are not as "Sophisticated" as them.

 

[Blunderboy]

SNIP
Also what about the Pacific theater? Don't recall Europe, specifically Russia, helping out.

SNIP

Luckily, history does.

See here. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%80%93Japanese_War_(1945)]
And here as well. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burma_Campaign]
Here too? [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arakan_Campaign_1942-1943]
Man, what are the odds? [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_War#Soviet_invasion_and_the_Atomic_bomb]

 

[Dr. Crawver]

I try not to generalize against other nations, but I do hate a lot of things about popular American patriotism.

WW2 for example, living in Canada, we tend to think of WW2 as this global tragedy in which countries from all over the world banded together like never before to deal with a situation.

Americans seem to believe it was all just about how Hitler was bad and how America saved the day, and how the whole event is just proof of how awesome America is. Even going as far as to rewrite history(Pearl Harbour), disregard the fact that they arrived two years late when everybody else jumped in right away, and of course pretend certain armies hardly existed.(Russia anyone?)

(Pearl Harbor lrn2spell)

SORRY, sorry. Anyways. I don't know any Americans who think we single-handedly won WWII (Although I will take credit for WWI, but another tangent). I am curious what this revision of Pearl HARBOR is though. And don't forget, we get a lot of credit for a lot of reasons. We supplied ALL of the allies with tanks, planes, and guns. The American generals were the only ones who ever had successful battle plans (remember market garden?).

The war didn't really get on track until D-Day, I mean Africa was cool and all, but NO ONE cared. D-Day happened after America joined and was planned by Americans. Also what about the Pacific theater? Don't recall Europe, specifically Russia, helping out.

I'm not crazy/stupid enough to think we were the single reason for Allied victory, but don't dare act like we were just a small puzzle piece, we did a larger share than any other allied country (inb4 Russia losing 20 million people, it was incompetent generals, poor supply, and outgunned soldiers). Finally the US did not enter WWII because of Hitler and the jews, we, along with most of the world, were very racist against Jewish people and didn't really care until Pearl HARBOR was bomber.

/rant

Harbour is the Brittish spelling, just like armour etc, so getting so up in arms about it is pretty needless.

Next, thanks for saying England had terrible generals and tactics, in-spite the fact that it was us and the french resistance that did the spying, mainly the brittish engineers who designed all the unusual machines that were used in the assault, and that we had successfully tanked the blitz, and managed to get Hitler to actually stop what would have crippled us, bombing the factories.

Not to mention Russia had won the war long before, and were taking the brunt of Germany's main force. Yes, america were a tipping point, causing the squeeze on Germany as they were assaulted on all sides, but don't think it was America that did most of the work, even during and after D-day. Only thing your generals wanted was to push forward recklessly, and that was because of your mistrust of the Russians and communism, and we all know how that went down in the end.

America were valuable, but they were not a deciding factor. The biggest thing they did were the nukes in Japan, that ended the war there faster.

 

[Metal Brother]

I don't mind people being a patriot, you love your country. There isn't an issue with hanging an American flag here. Other cultures may see it odd but that shouldn't make us use insults towards one another, but it does anger me a bit to see someone from Switzerland call us out just because we have idiots running around in our country and we are not as "Sophisticated" as them.

A wise man once said that magic is religion you don't believe in.

I'd extend this to say that nationalism is simply someone else's patriotism. Unless you're part of the culture you don't (and some would argue CAN'T) really understand it.

 

[Esotera]

Countries are becoming more and more blurred compared to what they were a few decades ago, I'd say that generally nationalism is in decline (mostly due to the internet & affordable travel). I wouldn't say that stereotypes of nations are necessarily nationalist though.