New Deus Ex Not "Dumbed Down" for Consoles

[The Root Beer Guy]

It wouldn't matter if they said they were making it just like Invisible War. Being the depraved fan boy that I am, I would probably just buy it anyway. That actually makes me sad.

 

[mexicola]

I'll believe it when I see it, I'm still not convinced you can cater to both audiences without losing something. That being said I still loved ME2 which was supposedly "dumbed down for consoles" so I might still like it if it's a good game, I just don't believe it will be anywhere near the 1st one. All that "capturing the essence" PR crap just makes me roll eyes.

 

[ASnogarD]

The thing I miss the most with the introduction of regenrative health, is the sheer tension you get from haveing 25 hp , no medkits , a limited supply of LAM's and a bot in front of you... between you and a room that may or may not have medkits hidden away.

Regen health isnt a bad thing, but there is the cost of losing much of the tension of trying to survive a no medkit + low HP scenerios, I mean all you need to do is find some cover and wait to be healthy again.

I had a lot of insane moments trying to survive the above secenerios and it was very satisfying to pass the ordeal and find some health, till the next time you screwed up and found yourself hiding in a cupboard shuffling through your inventory to see what you had to get yourself out of this new pickle you got into.

 

[oktalist]

First off, Deus Ex is the best game of all time, according to PC Gamer and PC Zone. It won shitloads of GOTYs and sold over 1 million copies, not fucking bad for a PC game in 2000. Metacritic gives it 92%. So if you're arguing from a position of slagging it off and saying its gameplay was stupid, you are in the minority, and you're missing the point. Deus Ex is not for you, and the new Deus Ex should not be aimed at you.

Deus Ex had a regenerative health augment anyway, so put that in your pipe and smoke it.

The regeneration augmentation used up bioelectric energy, so you still had to use biocells, which worked just like medkits. Regenerative health of the sort you mean does not impose a disadvantage on the player for using it. It's "free health". It reduces the incentive to not get shot.

Of course the health mechanic is not the core of Deus Ex, but the way you had to manage your medkits and biocells and armour and cloaks and so on and so forth was one small aspect of the great many little things that made Deus Ex what it was. If you go in and you change, if only in a small way, several of those aspects, even if none of them is in itself at the core of what makes Deus Ex, you are still on the road to getting rid of what makes Deus Ex, because all the little things add up.

Regenerative health is indicative of a more general dumbing down, even if it is not particularly undesirable in itself.

I, for one, cannot wait for this.

Me neither, but I hope I am not disappointed.

After all, who wants progress and systems that make the game more enjoyable, when you could stick with a health bar, medikits and run and gun?

You may be confusing "enjoyable" with "easy". Have you even played Deus Ex?

Deus Ex was not run and gun. Regenerative health would encourage run and gun.

Picking up healthpacks that magically heal all your wounds is just as unrealistic. I care for a well flowing game.

Realism is not the problem.

You press button, you get health. You can only press button so many times. You pick up item, you can press button more times. What's not well flowing about that?

If Deus Ex 3 doesn't pull off something truly spectacular, the Deus Ex series will finally be the Matrix Triology of gaming.

This.

The fact health doesn't seem to matter anymore, that game design is all about leading people by the hand through a series of vicarious spectacles, designed mostly to make the player feel awesome despite the fact s/he doesn't really accomplish anything is an insult to everyone. The fact people lap up such design like its innovative or progressive is an insult to game design as a whole.

Clap. Clap. Clap.

Stopped reading here. There are several detailed previews knocking about where people have be shown a few (but not all) the ways to approach a level, depending on how you like to play (gunz, stealthz, talkiez) and that it's totally up to you. They're not leading you by the hand at all.

Cynic wasn't talking about DX3, but the new generation of shooters in general.

As for the cover system, it's there for stealth as much as it is for action. Why? Because stealth in DX was shit! I walked 10 feet in front of an enemy on the first mission with no points in stealth and he didn't see me.

Nobody suggested it was there for action. We question why it needs to be there at all. What problem does it fix? Stealth in DX was fantastic. See also the first paragraph of this post. Were you playing on easy? Also there's no such thing as points in stealth.

Even if stealth in DX was broken, adding a cover system is not a silver bullet that is going to fix that. AT ALL. (I have programmed a cover system for a current-gen console game, BTW.)

Why are you acting like the health system and lack of real stealth was something integral to the game, as though that's what made it what it is today.

See my reply to Woodsey at the top of this post. No, health is not at the core of what makes Deus Ex, but the little things add up. It is indicative of a general trend.

Also cover system != real stealth.

Shut up and get over it, you're doing a greater diservice to the game by saying that some how regenerative health would ruin it by dumbing it down to the extent that a more modern health system would render ever other design decision in the game pointless, that's the extent of what you're saying.

No, we're not. We can't comment on any other design decisions because the health and cover are the only ones we've been reliably told about, and they indicate a general trend.

 

[electric discordian]

How is Regenerating health an encouragement to dumb players to be dumb, In Fallout3 I could stand in a hail of bullets popping Stims never once taking cover because I didn't need to! If medkits are in the in game shops figure out how to break the ingame economy and bang every game is easy mode!

Every game has an economy which takes about three days on average to break. Not having med kits maintains the challenge to an extent.

Reason for health regen? How about cyberware or Bioware. Because that wasn't in the original Deus Ex at all. It being a faithful recreation of Pig farming in 17th Century Florence.

I hate this idea of Dumbing down for consoles anyway, why does it always have to be the excuse that "It's the consoles fault!" We can't be bothered developing something which is equally good on all platforms so lets make it for the 360 port it across to the PC and then claim it's down to console gamers!

I am a console gamer, I can quite categorically state now that I never ask for developers to ruin you PC gamers fun! It is laziness pure and simple, they will continue to get away with it because we continue to fight amongst ourselves!

 

[incal11]

Every game has an economy which takes about three days on average to break. Not having med kits maintains the challenge to an extent.

Reason for health regen? How about cyberware or Bioware. Because that wasn't in the original Deus Ex at all. It being a faithful recreation of Pig farming in 17th Century Florence.

I hate this idea of Dumbing down for consoles anyway, why does it always have to be the excuse that "It's the consoles fault!" We can't be bothered developing something which is equally good on all platforms so lets make it for the 360 port it across to the PC and then claim it's down to console gamers!

"console gamers" in the heads of the marketers means twitchy FPS player with zero patience, thei're not completely right, but thei're not completely wrong either. To be fair this define a good part of the pc players too.
Even regeneration is good if it's well implemented, like you said, but 9 times out of 10 it's just shameless padding in a mediocre game. We're not talking realism, but depth of gameplay. With depth i'd play a pig farming sim any day

Why, exactly, is regenerating health "dumbed down"? Simplified, maybe, but not dumbed down. Because backtracking for fifteen minutes in search of a medpack you may or may not have seen isn't actually any smarter than taking cover, is it?

I'm glad there's regenerating health, it's so much better than med kits. And I don't know why games are dumbed down for consoles, the controls just need to be simplified, not the mechanics.

Constantly backtracking just for medkits is something you do in a bad game. In deus ex medkits were just one of many incentives to go looking around, and even without getting sidetracked you'd still find some on your way.
That said, constantly backtracking for health packs is just as crushingly boring as staying crouched behind a wall. Even then you'd at least be using your memory instead of just waiting ; while the tension in the gunfights would be the same in the end, with or without regeneration.

 

[ajofflight]

For some reason I thought Eidos was dead... Strange. Anyways, I MAY buy it at some point, but I was around 8 or 9 when the first one came out, so I don't really have a firm grasp on the series.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

Somebody console me.

No way, I don't want to be accused of dumbing you down.

 

[Ironic Pirate]

Why, exactly, is regenerating health "dumbed down"? Simplified, maybe, but not dumbed down. Because backtracking for fifteen minutes in search of a medpack you may or may not have seen isn't actually any smarter than taking cover, is it?

I'm glad there's regenerating health, it's so much better than med kits. And I don't know why games are dumbed down for consoles, the controls just need to be simplified, not the mechanics.

Constantly backtracking just for medkits is something you do in a bad game. In deus ex medkits were just one of many incentives to go looking around, and even without getting sidetracked you'd still find some on your way.
That said, constantly backtracking for health packs is just as crushingly boring as staying crouched behind a wall. Even then you'd at least be using your memory instead of just waiting ; while the tension in the gunfights would be the same in the end, with or without regeneration.

How is taking cover for five seconds boring? Anyway, I haven't played the Deus Ex games, but in 90 percent of medkit based games, you have to backtrack for minutes at least once or twice, far more irritating than taking cover. If you can carry medkits I don't mind as much, but I find regeneration more fun.

But it's a very subjective thing, one isn't really better.

 

[incal11]

How is taking cover for five seconds boring? Anyway, I haven't played the Deus Ex games, but in 90 percent of medkit based games, you have to backtrack for minutes at least once or twice, far more irritating than taking cover. If you can carry medkits I don't mind as much, but I find regeneration more fun.

But it's a very subjective thing, one isn't really better.

I don't remember taking cover for just five seconds every time, and by the end of the games it does add up quite a bit. As I said in the end what counts is how well it's implemented and if the game is good to begin with. Still, in the case of deus ex it's undeniably a dumbing down and you normally read my explanation, what wasn't clear in it ?

 

[TsunamiWombat]

Hmph. We shall see. Consider my skeptical hat on, sirrah.

 

[WanderingFool]

Well, thank God im me. Im the one guy who im the next Selda game hade voice acting and link talking, would go, "ehh, looks good." I honestly dont have that much of an opinion on health kits vs regen, as I see both having flaws and strengths. But I have a bit of a problem with TP cover systems; why is it when I blind fire, I can aim still... and further more, why is it when im on one side of a wall, I can see around the corner? I would like to see a game where blind fire is literally blind fire.

 

[Ironic Pirate]

How is taking cover for five seconds boring? Anyway, I haven't played the Deus Ex games, but in 90 percent of medkit based games, you have to backtrack for minutes at least once or twice, far more irritating than taking cover. If you can carry medkits I don't mind as much, but I find regeneration more fun.

But it's a very subjective thing, one isn't really better.

I don't remember taking cover for just five seconds every time, and by the end of the games it does add up quite a bit. As I said in the end what counts is how well it's implemented and if the game is good to begin with. Still, in the case of deus ex it's undeniably a dumbing down and you normally read my explanation, what wasn't clear in it ?

I guess what wasn't clear is how medkits are any more intelligent. Again, it depends on the implementation, and if you can carry them it adds a strategic element, but most games just toss them willy nilly about the level. I find that irritating.

In a good game, I suppose, med kits would be fine, but I just find regeneration less frustrating.

And on a side note, I hate it when open world games don't have regeneration.

 

[Skade]

Picking up healthpacks that magically heal all your wounds is just as unrealistic. I care for a well flowing game.

Realism is not the problem.

You press button, you get health. You can only press button so many times. You pick up item, you can press button more times. What's not well flowing about that?

I'm not saying that healthkit systems are bad. I mean, in the end, the game everyone complains about - Halo - actually has healthkits: your health is just behind a shield, which splits health into a regenerating resource and a non-regenerating. I think this system works quite well (although I personally have other reasons to dislike it).

I think the main complaint about regenerating health is that is often badly tweaked and needs a good AI that can take you out of action if you try a run and gun-approach too much. At the moment, i really enjoy Killzone 2 on hard difficulty: enemy fire keeps you in cover, but you can still run, if you watch for the gaps and the enemy AI is aggressive enough and does not allow you to stay where you are for too long.

My point is: regen/healthkit is not a dealbreaker. It comes down to a good implementation. I can see a lot of variables that you can tweak according to you playstyle in both of them. What I care for is a system that makes my chaingun-wielding, muscle-packed, strength-biomodded superagent feel like someone who just eats bullets and spits them out again and my hyperfragile stealh guy is shot to death by anyone noticing him. And a level design that allows both to use their strengthes.

Deus Ex, with all its flaws, somehow always offered simple as well as more complex, more satifying solutions. Hell, I want bosses I can detonate by just saying "laputan machine"!

 

[Cynical skeptic]

Yup.

Same with the preview level journalists have been shown of DXHR. Thanks for proving my point.

You're getting confused.

Your point was "stealth sucked in deus ex because it worked too well on the first level." Since everything worked equally well on the first level (depending on which difficulty you chose), by your logic, everything in deus ex sucked.

But once you got past the first level, you started investing heavily in a specific playstyle or you just forgot about it (ass u me ing you didn't play on the lower difficulties).

Just because the press only demo levels are imitating the first level of deus ex doesn't mean dick. What matters is how the game progress after that.

Also, no one should give anything resembling a shit what some shill says about a game. The fact they're even being allowed to play it at all greatly skews their opinions and prevents anything resembling objectivity. They're all afraid of saying something "negative" and being fired for it.

also, if no one ever disagreed, everything would be boring :O

 

[incal11]

I guess what wasn't clear is how medkits are any more intelligent.

(backtracking for medkits) you'd at least be using your memory instead of just waiting ; while the tension in the gunfights would be the same in the end, with or without regeneration.

We agree that it mainly depends on the quality of the game though, so you can stop bringing that up.

 

[Albino Boo]

Sounds good to me. Besides the PS2 version of the original Deus Ex wasn't all that bad. Let's hope this is fine as well.

When they removed location damage, Jesus wept. Seriously in a game that revelled in it's own depth, that was a blow to me. Different streaks for different freaks, but I loved that your accuracy lowered when your arms were damaged, and your had a limp when your legs were damaged. Loved it.

Whoa whoa whoa... what...? Damn really? I have to hunt down the PC version of Deus Ex then... I've played both games on the consoles, enjoyed the first more (though the second was decent as well), but had no clue there was a radical shift like that for the first game...

As for the whole "regen health" system, eh... I can't really comment on it. Halo switched from regen to medpack though and no one really seems to mind the shift, perhaps because of a regenerating shield.

As for the "regen" system people keep mentioning, like others said it was an active system that required energy, and more so its effect depended on how you took out the enemy (you had to incapacitate/kill them before it worked).

I can understand why people hate one over the other though, I could care less, as long as the game in general isn't ruined. Medkits weren't exactly a rare commodity, exploration rewarded experience, credits, weapons, and other nifty things. Sure medkits were found, but whats a medkit to the awesomely nanite-blue dragon blade?

The hit locations is one of the reason why medkits are better than regen of health. In the first games you had to make a choice to as were the damage was healed. Say if you had lost an arm and a leg, you could half heal both or fully heal one. In others words you had make a tactical choice.

 

[octafish]

Why is everyone focused on the health system and electronic wack-a-mole? Revolutions won't let you make stealth kills. Sneak close to the enemy and get a stealth kill prompt and *bang* cinematic... Bullshit. A QTE by any other name would suck just as hard.

 

[Arec Balrin]

There are some people that just seem programmed to never 'get it'. But I'll try to explain.

As the example was given earlier: a shack you need to get into with a keypad that can be hacked or a number hidden somewhere nearby, a grate behind it leading into the door beneath it and a window that can be lock-picked. That is not Deus Ex. Hell even if you put this shack in a large area populated with lots of distractions and made the shack itself an obstacle to easy access, it wouldn't be Deus Ex.

Some people say Deus Ex is about choices. I disagree: Deus Ex is about freedom and choices are the antithesis of freedom. If you have a choice between A and B, that isn't freedom. If it's A, B and C, that isn't freedom. You can keep going adding choices but you could add thousands of them and at no point will you be giving someone any freedom; they must still decide from a pre-determined set of paths graciously offered to them by the designer. Deus Ex is when in Mario 64 you get a bob-omb to follow you and make it crash into another bob-omb. The bob-ombs are not designed to do that, a programmer simply thought that explosives should set off other explosives and didn't realise that this situation wouldn't apply to any designed experience at any part in the game. It manifested as a fun meta-game players discovered where their wits and skill was strongly tested by trying to get two bob-ombs to collide without touching them.

Deus Ex is where you lay down some simple rules and they populate the entire game and you let them do their work. Freedom is not choice, freedom is simply what enables choice otherwise a choice would be nothing more than a calculation you make for the best possible outcome, a decision on which you are wrong or right. The moment you realise there is no wrong and right in Deus Ex, only consequences, is when the game lives for you. Consequence is freedom. Not simply the consequence of doing one thing and changing a part of the story(something the designers intend to happen no matter which way it goes), but of how early choices affect your later choices. If you choose to use a lockpick over an explosive to get through a door, there could be a reinforced door later that requires a lockpick you don't have so you must search for one(uncovering things you never would have seen otherwise) or find another route(ditto). You could try alternating between your resources to make sure you never run out of any single type of them; you will always have one. But then you could come up to a door that requires five lockpicks, five multitools or three explosives and you only have one or two of each; where as if you specialised in lockpicking and stuck points in it to make good use of picks, you would find you have abundant explosives and multitools to use even though you have no skill invested in them; you can still use them.

In Pac-Man and Bomberman you can only go in four possible directions in total at any time and in many situations those directions are not available whilst in others the wrong turn will cause you to lose. You have few choices but huge freedom in those games. They are Deus Ex.

Deus Ex:HR won't be. Everything I've heard from the developers so far suggests their understanding of the original is painfully simplistic and not anywhere near sentimental enough.