New here, how do you guys feel about libertarian socialism?

[That_Which_Isnt]

Libertarian Socialism as I've heard it explained is just a nice pipe dream, like Marx's "pure communism". And, like communism--and, for that matter, anarchy--it works best in groups of one or fewer.

Except it's happened before.

Name one successful instance. You can't, because there are none.

OP is a 14 year old idealist.

This.

I love anarchists.

I might not agree with them, but at least they tend to have read plenty of politics and economics to actually argue their case effectively.

In what rose-colored Bizarro World do you live?

I've named SEVERAL if you're willing to read the topic, but I know you're obviously too lazy since you're resorting to ad hominem (irony lulz)

You're kidding about that anarchy thing right?

Libertarian Socialism is how I'd describe my own personal political philosophy. I'm socially libertarian (marry a pig if you want, as long as you aren't harming another person that's your own damn business) and otherwise a left of center socialist (govt. funded arts, health care etc.).

I don't see how anarchy enters into it...

Any person with any degree of intelligence will tell you libertarian socialism is a synonym for anarchy, google it.

 

[That_Which_Isnt]

Pipe dreams.

Please read the topic.

Libertarian socialism just being a nice word for anarchy obviously.

There are usually lots of misconceptions about anarchy so let me clear up what anarchy is. Anarchy is opposition to all forms of hierarchy,Capitalism (no anarcho-capitalism is NOT a form of anarchy), the State, racism, sexism, discrimination upon the basis of sexual preference, etc. Anarchy is opposed to hierarchy because anarchy seeks to maximize liberty, equality, and solidarity (these three all naturally follow each other of course), and hierarchy by nature limits these three.

Property is Theft

Then the guy with the biggest gun turns anarchy into Totalitarianism. Anarchy relies on two beautifully idealistic lies to stand. The first being that getting rid of capitalism gets rid of greed, and the second that everyone will agree to follow the rule that there are no rules while still being a safe moral society. Anarchy is based on trust, and many people cannot be trusted with all the machinations of society. There will always be someone who wants more, and how do you plan on stopping them? How will you stop "racism, sexism, discrimination upon the basis of sexual preference, etc." if there is no one to stop it? And libertarianism is still far from anarchy, as it believes government is still necessary but only for preserving the general peace as well as trade, national security and diplomacy.

No it rely's on the fact that greed will exist after capitalism just not to such a degree, if it stopped existing we'd be screwed. It's based on trust.. insofaras you need anarchists for an anarchist society.

SWEET CHRIST PEOPLE READ THE TOPIC

 

[That_Which_Isnt]

I hate anarchism, it fully opposes my political preferance-Fascism.

No war like the class-war, rioting against fascists is a great way to release psychological pressures naturally built up under such a system of oppression.

 

[similar.squirrel]

The impression I get is that any kind of socialism is impossible without a degree of hierarchy. Otherwise, the whole thing will just denigrate into a big Objectivist free-for all capitalism.
Like herding extremely greedy cats.

 

[That_Which_Isnt]

I hate anarchism, it fully opposes my political preferance-Fascism.

No war like the class-war, rioting against fascists is a great way to release psychological pressures naturally built up under such a system of oppression.

Fascism is always different, it all depends on who the leader is.
Fascism has the power to achieve great things but it also has the power to leave nutjobs go on a killing spree.........

Fascism is always hierarchy
Anarchy always opposes hierarchy

Anarchy will always oppose Fascism, and thus riot against it to relieve the oppressiveness of hierarchy.

The impression I get is that any kind of socialism is impossible without a degree of hierarchy. Otherwise, the whole thing will just denigrate into a big Objectivist free-for all capitalism.
Like herding extremely greedy cats.

Need anarchists for an anarchist society, etc.

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

I think you would find Egoist Anarchism to be right up your alley. : )

Considering the fact that my alley is a dark place where people get stabbed for funsies, I suspect you are correct.

Spoiler: Wikipedia says...

Egoist anarchists argue that there are no rational grounds for any person to recognise any authority above her own reason or to place any goal before their own happiness.[8] Hence they reject morality, concluding that no one has any reason to accept any principles of conduct, except insofar as accepting those principles is strategically effective in promoting one's own interests. The consistent anarchist, they argue, should accept no unchosen constraints, moral or political, on her own sovereign will.[8] Even murder is permissible "if it is right for me."[9]

I like it.
I like it a lot.

I thought as much.

I have a bit of an issue labeling my own political beliefs, but egoist anarchism is as close to being an apt description of what I am as it can get.

The only reason why I follow some laws is because I am unable to prevent being thrown in jail were I ever to get caught. But I have no problem with breaking laws if I can get away with the crime, and I do this on a regular basis.

 

[similar.squirrel]

I hate anarchism, it fully opposes my political preferance-Fascism.

No war like the class-war, rioting against fascists is a great way to release psychological pressures naturally built up under such a system of oppression.

Fascism is always different, it all depends on who the leader is.
Fascism has the power to achieve great things but it also has the power to leave nutjobs go on a killing spree.........

Fascism is always hierarchy
Anarchy always opposes hierarchy

Anarchy will always oppose Fascism, and thus riot against it to relieve the oppressiveness of hierarchy.

The impression I get is that any kind of socialism is impossible without a degree of hierarchy. Otherwise, the whole thing will just denigrate into a big Objectivist free-for all capitalism.
Like herding extremely greedy cats.

Need anarchists for an anarchist society, etc.

And they may as well be mythical, for their scarcity. Although, reading 'Homage to Catalonia', I'm starting to think maybe not. Hm. Those were different times, though.

 

[That_Which_Isnt]

I think it's a fad.

A fad that has existed since the dawn of mankind.

 

[DoomyMcDoom]

without order imposed by a system there is no order, without order there is chaos, and in chaos everyone suffers. sure I Hate the current governmental systems we all have to suffer with currently. but completely removing any form of leadership cannot function without a serious lack of personal and social safety. in our world almost everyone is an apathetic shit. so if someone say... came along and stole everything you had or held dear, and maybe took a mean beating in the mean time, what's to say anyone would stand up for you? then nobody is punished nobody is safe. given time even if we were to remove the current government people would start to again devolve into a scared mob minded group and start to follow anyone who could even partly guarantee them a safe and orderly life. this is why there have been forms of government over people for the entire time humans have been able to gather and communicate. sure it's been a different form you have tribes with elders and chiefs and whatnot and you have feudal societies based in several forms around a king or kings with lords under them and serfs under them. but when you give people too much freedom it enables too much of the malicious side of them to show and thus makes others scared followers... it's how we work and how we always have as a race. the only solution i can think of that might work better is if we had our government run by non-proffit committees of elected individuals who were rotated and refreshed on a yearly or bi-yearly basis to keep things in order.


also in a properly anarchistic society you would have to rely on people being willing/capable of maintaining the infrastructure of the community without a solid system in place to do so through taxation and other means... because without a government in place of any solid form you cannot privatize road workers or sewage system maintenance without a huge margin for exploitation due to a lack of strict control.


basing on those and many many many many other arguments i can put forward off the top of my head anarchy, overall as a system cannot truly function in regards to human beings and our natural behavior...


ps. sure our current capitalist society reinforces greed. but if you look at history, greed has been in effect throughout for a long long time. people want something so they take it, they want it badly enough they will harm others to do so.

/end rant

 

[That_Which_Isnt]

without order imposed by a system there is no order, without order there is chaos, and in chaos everyone suffers. sure I Hate the current governmental systems we all have to suffer with currently. but completely removing any form of leadership cannot function without a serious lack of personal and social safety. in our world almost everyone is an apathetic shit. so if someone say... came along and stole everything you had or held dear, and maybe took a mean beating in the mean time, what's to say anyone would stand up for you? then nobody is punished nobody is safe. given time even if we were to remove the current government people would start to again devolve into a scared mob minded group and start to follow anyone who could even partly guarantee them a safe and orderly life. this is why there have been forms of government over people for the entire time humans have been able to gather and communicate. sure it's been a different form you have tribes with elders and chiefs and whatnot and you have feudal societies based in several forms around a king or kings with lords under them and serfs under them. but when you give people too much freedom it enables too much of the malicious side of them to show and thus makes others scared followers... it's how we work and how we always have as a race. the only solution i can think of that might work better is if we had our government run by non-proffit committees of elected individuals who were rotated and refreshed on a yearly or bi-yearly basis to keep things in order.


also in a properly anarchistic society you would have to rely on people being willing/capable of maintaining the infrastructure of the community without a solid system in place to do so through taxation and other means... because without a government in place of any solid form you cannot privatize road workers or sewage system maintenance without a huge margin for exploitation due to a lack of strict control.


basing on those and many many many many other arguments i can put forward off the top of my head anarchy, overall as a system cannot truly function in regards to human beings and our natural behavior...


ps. sure our current capitalist society reinforces greed. but if you look at history, greed has been in effect throughout for a long long time. people want something so they take it, they want it badly enough they will harm others to do so.

/end rant

Your initial assumption that anarchy is against order is entirely wrong, as is pretty much the rest of your post. There can be "government" under anarchy, just not organized hierarchically. You're just being irrationally depressed and apathetic, just the way the State trained you Good Job.

 

[DoomyMcDoom]

*snip*

Your initial assumption that anarchy is against order is entirely wrong, as is pretty much the rest of your post. There can be "government" under anarchy, just not organized hierarchically. You're just being irrationally depressed and apathetic, just the way the State trained you Good Job.

organized hierarchy is government... and I am sorry but I dropped out of school at an early grade to avoid being trained... if you think I am apathetic you are sorely mistaken. nor am i depressed, I'm realistic.
I've been fighting the current organizational corruption in every way one can without being silenced permanently... I assume from your posting that you're speaking from a standpoint of the average poorly informed misdirected and socially confused group that consists mainly of dreamers, optimistic religious individuals and unfortunately, utopian society building mooks... thing is, it never works. even if you were to reprogram society itself. the mass majority of people around you in this world are so programmed otherwise that it would be impossible to maintain for any length of time.

as it is well known a person can be perfectly reasonable and influenced into maybe thinking differently... but people are stupid and are prone to irrationally destroying anything they don't feel comfortable with or know enough about...

there are ways to integrate changes but with the current power structure in place one would have to work either very slowly(not worth it) or very quickly and then fight to maintain the new order (which inevitably means bloodshed on one side or the other)

life is not fluffy bunnies and hope, life is humans acting as humans do, which is usually very inhumanely.

there is no such thing as a "perfect" or "fair" or even "Just" society that can last with humans involved on any important level.

I'm sorry if you think I'm a drone, but we as humans cannot exist without a solid form of regulation, if only because of the way our race inevitably solves situations.

only way equality can be preserved is if we were all drones and thus mindless and emotionless.

therefor I prefer a world full of all that it is because otherwise we'd be bored to tears, and overpopulation would take it's toll...

for instance immagine a world without war. Great eh? till you think that in the second world war alone some 60 odd million people died, horrible eh? well if those 60 million had survived and bore children we would have ALOT more people consuming ALOT more resources.
looking back our aggressive tendencies act as a barrier to our own demise, lessening our numbers so we don't die of overpopulation as soon as it could happen. think of all the wars and how they have a nice fat cone shaped population reducing effect.
it may sound cruel but when you look at the numbers if there had never been wars fought because of these monstrous hierarchies sending people to kill each other you'd probably be either nonexistent or starving in a gutter along with millions of others. as it is we have a population that is estimated to be closing on the 7 billion mark. a number that big might not make alot of impact on a person's mind just because it can be hard to immagine THAT many people... but yeah, it climbs all the time.

/end rant2

 

[Rolling Thunder]

Anarchy is but an interesting little interim leading up to my ascension. Either that, or one really, really classic, proper, total war, one to end this annoying drug-habit of civilsation and send us right back to that violence and blood, and remind us what the hell we are.

 

[That_Which_Isnt]

*snip*

Your initial assumption that anarchy is against order is entirely wrong, as is pretty much the rest of your post. There can be "government" under anarchy, just not organized hierarchically. You're just being irrationally depressed and apathetic, just the way the State trained you Good Job.

organized hierarchy is government... and I am sorry but I dropped out of school at an early grade to avoid being trained... if you think I am apathetic you are sorely mistaken. nor am i depressed, I'm realistic.
I've been fighting the current organizational corruption in every way one can without being silenced permanently... I assume from your posting that you're speaking from a standpoint of the average poorly informed misdirected and socially confused group that consists mainly of dreamers, optimistic religious individuals and unfortunately, utopian society building mooks... thing is, it never works. even if you were to reprogram society itself. the mass majority of people around you in this world are so programmed otherwise that it would be impossible to maintain for any length of time.

as it is well known a person can be perfectly reasonable and influenced into maybe thinking differently... but people are stupid and are prone to irrationally destroying anything they don't feel comfortable with or know enough about...

there are ways to integrate changes but with the current power structure in place one would have to work either very slowly(not worth it) or very quickly and then fight to maintain the new order (which inevitably means bloodshed on one side or the other)

life is not fluffy bunnies and hope, life is humans acting as humans do, which is usually very inhumanely.

there is no such thing as a "perfect" or "fair" or even "Just" society that can last with humans involved on any important level.

I'm sorry if you think I'm a drone, but we as humans cannot exist without a solid form of regulation, if only because of the way our race inevitably solves situations.

only way equality can be preserved is if we were all drones and thus mindless and emotionless.

therefor I prefer a world full of all that it is because otherwise we'd be bored to tears, and overpopulation would take it's toll...

for instance immagine a world without war. Great eh? till you think that in the second world war alone some 60 odd million people died, horrible eh? well if those 60 million had survived and bore children we would have ALOT more people consuming ALOT more resources.
looking back our aggressive tendencies act as a barrier to our own demise, lessening our numbers so we don't die of overpopulation as soon as it could happen. think of all the wars and how they have a nice fat cone shaped population reducing effect.
it may sound cruel but when you look at the numbers if there had never been wars fought because of these monstrous hierarchies sending people to kill each other you'd probably be either nonexistent or starving in a gutter along with millions of others. as it is we have a population that is estimated to be closing on the 7 billion mark. a number that big might not make alot of impact on a person's mind just because it can be hard to immagine THAT many people... but yeah, it climbs all the time.

/end rant2

Yea you should read my wall of text I posted... YOU CAN ORGANIZE WITHOUT HIERARCHY by the way.

If you say no I'm finished responding to you.

 

[That_Which_Isnt]

I've named SEVERAL if you're willing to read the topic, but I know you're obviously too lazy since you're resorting to ad hominem (irony lulz)

You're kidding about that anarchy thing right?

Libertarian Socialism is how I'd describe my own personal political philosophy. I'm socially libertarian (marry a pig if you want, as long as you aren't harming another person that's your own damn business) and otherwise a left of center socialist (govt. funded arts, health care etc.).

I don't see how anarchy enters into it...

Any person with any degree of intelligence will tell you libertarian socialism is a synonym for anarchy, google it.

So, because you read something after a Google search, you're intelligent, whereas anybody who disagrees with you or found different information some other way is stupid?

And yet I'm the one using ad hominems to cover a lack of ideas. Riiiiiiiiight...

I'd like to see proof of this "different information." And I do suggest that using a search engine to find something in conflict makes you intelligent, but only minorly so as I pointed out. Bringing in a third party to settle disputes you know?