Nintendo, more than "casual"

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Gatx

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Matthew94 said:
Gatx said:
Matthew94 said:
I challenge anyone to

#1 Define casual and hardcore gamers
#2 Say how you can make a game for them

The only definition I have gotten is "varying interest in gaming" which means you cannot make a game for a "hardcore audience" thus making the terms void of meaning.
Not really a serious answer but:

Casual gamers are the ones that play games that don't require dedication (but may or may not end up taking a shit load of your accumulated time without you noticing) like mobile and social games. "Non-casual" gamers will play anything really. "Hardcore" gamers are ones that like to play M rated games with lots of sex and violence, but usually just the violence will do.
So hardcore gamers are dudebros then, I'm glad I don't call myself a hardcore gamer.

"non-casual". Why not just say "gamer" or "someone how often plays games"?
I felt like I needed to differentiate it since I listed it right after casual gamer but that is essentially what I meant. And "hardcore" is in quotations for a reason.

Buretsu said:
Hardcore gamers are dudebros, while casual gamers are hipster douches.

Ahh, how much better things are when we unfairly generalize.
Well, you have to generalize when you're trying to define a category of people. Also I would consider gamers of all types who refuse to acknowledge "casual games" at all as having more a hipster attitude if we're going with unfair generalizations and casual gamers as "the masses." Also I can see "dudebros" as being the most accepting, able to appreciate both "hardcore games" like Call of Duty and Dead Space and what not as well as Angry Birds weirdly enough.
 

Rooster Cogburn

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baddude1337 said:
There is a certain social stigma that Nintendo does "kiddy games". Kiddy in the sense that blood isn't gushing out everywhere sure. Nintendo games generally appeal to everyone, it's just as kids are also the target it has to look kid-friendly.
Give me a break. If you're old enough to manipulate a controller, you've long outgrown this:






I can handle kiddy, but this is just obnoxious. I wouldn't have liked this as a kid. I guess the Japanese go for it.

It may be that my tastes have changed, but I don't think that is the cause of my current distaste for Nintendo. I can play and enjoy the old Zelda and Mario games. But more recent titles are constantly distracting me with terrible controls and artwork for babies and Japanese people. I don't think Nintendo betrayed their fans exactly. But they definitely aren't what they were when I was a lad.
 

Alex Baas

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Nintendo has one of my favourite online games ever. How's that for irony?

(Monster Hunter Tri since I know you are going to ask)
 

wintercoat

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Buretsu said:
Matthew94 said:
I view the stereotype of "casual gamers" as people who don't play games that often. The thing is, that goes against what the definition of casual is. Most of us are all casual gamers, we don't play to be stressed out, we play to unwind and have fun.
And gamers have fun in different ways.

Some of them have fun, while not being particularly challenged or engaged by the games they play. Those are the 'casuals'.

Some of them have fun while overcoming the phsycal, gameplay, or mental challenges which a game sets in front of them. Those are the 'hardcore'.

Or at least that's how I see it.


Fun handed to you on a silver platter vs fun you have to work for.
 

Don Savik

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j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
Considering that one of the launch games for the Wii U is a survival-horror zombie FPS where all inventory management has to be done in real time, one hit can kill your character, and dying necessitates replaying an entire level with a new character to get to the spot where the old you was zombified so you can kill the zombie-you to get your stuff back... well, that sounds pretty damn hardcore to me.

This whole 'Nintendo console = only for teh kids' keeps getting bandied about, and its as untrue with the Wii U and Wii as it was for the Gamecube and N64.

It's funny, small-minded conservative media types are always trying paint games as being nothing more than toys for children. For all their bleating and whining about games deserving recognition, gamers sure seem quick to side with the conservatives when it comes to Nintendo. Despite the likes of ZombiU, MadWorld, Eternal Darkness, No More Heroes, Doom 64, Conker's Bad Fur Day, etc, all providing adult thrills for adult gamers across 4 generations of Nintendo consoles.

But hey ho, what do I know...
ZombiU - ubisoft, not nintendo
Madworld - third party
No More Heroes - Suda 51, also no longer wii exclusive
Doom 64 - a doom port. seriously a port is your example?
Conker's Bad Fur Day - this game, while good, was a fluke, and we never got a game that M-rated again in the history of gaming...so......yea

Not saying these are bad games, but they have nothing to do with Nintendo. Yes you can get thrills out of a nintendo console as an adult gamer, but honestly its a joke compared to PC and ps3/xbox at this moment. The problem with Nintendo is they hit a note with the family-friendly-not-serious-gamers crowd with the Wii, and has focused their attention away from other things. Most Nintendo fans have grown up, and despite loving Mario as kids, a big colorful bee made for babies (post above) isn't going to grab our interest anymore.

Why is Nintendo incapable of making T to M rated games of their established franchises exactly? The market is there for darker games on the consoles. Having only E rated games doesn't add a lot of variety.

I just want to know what is stopping them from holding older fan's interests. I don't want Nintendo to become dark and broody all of a sudden, I just feel like I've outgrown the direction they want to go in gaming.
 

Vault101

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Nintendo catering to another audience isnt a bad thing (its even good)

however what annoys me is when nintendefenders get all self rightious and defensive

"you hate on nintendo? yeah..well...your just a dumbass who likes COD/brown games! ner!"

if you have to fall back on strawman arguments its not working...
 

Mr. Omega

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Nintendo does have problems. They very blatantly favor their Japanese audience over any other, they seem deathly afraid of the M rating, and if they didn't make something popular, they'll usually be the last one to implement that something.

But those points never get brought up. Maybe the last one every now and then. But almost every other time it's how Nintendo "BETRAYED HARDCORES!" and "STARTED THE CASUAL CRAZE!" and "*Parrot Squawk* GIMMICK GIMMICK GIMMICK *Squawk!*", all of which are total bullshit.

A big problem with gamer in general is that the mentality seems to be "if it doesn't cater to me, it objectively sucks!".

Plus some of the counter-arguments I hear when I try to defend the Wii are utterly retarded.

Hardcore: Nintendo only makes Mario, Zelda and Pokemon!
Me: Well, on the Wii we also had Punch Out, Fire Emblem Radiant Dawn, two Kirby games, Metroid Prime 3, Smash Bros Brawl and Wario Land Shake It, Animal Crossing and such. Plenty of other lesser-used titles got a chance in the spotlight.
Hardcore: Well they aren't as popular or successful so they don't count.

Hardcore: Nintendo doesn't make any new IPs anymore!
Me: Well, since the Gamecube there was Pikmin, Brain Age, Nintendogs, Warioware, and Animal Crossing and Fire Emblem for folks in North America.
Hardcore: Well they didn't make anything for the Wii.
Me: Well they did the Mii games
Hardcore: That kiddy-casual shit doesn't count!

Hardcore: There were no good third-party titles at all for the Wii!
Me: Well there was Sin and Punishment 2, A Boy and his Blob, Zack and Wiki, Lost in Shadow, No More Heroes, Madworld, Muramasa, de Blob, Xenoblade, Klonoa, Tatsunoko vs Capcom...
Hardcore: They don't count! I mean games like Red Dead Redemption, Call of Duty or Arkham Asylum!

Hardcore: Nintendo games are so easy now! I can beat the game so fast!
Me: Well there are some very difficult levels for those who are willing to find and unlock them.
Hardcore: Well those are just for 100%ers, so they don't count!

(Are you noticing a bit of trend here?)
 

DustyDrB

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Rooster Cogburn said:
baddude1337 said:
There is a certain social stigma that Nintendo does "kiddy games". Kiddy in the sense that blood isn't gushing out everywhere sure. Nintendo games generally appeal to everyone, it's just as kids are also the target it has to look kid-friendly.
Give me a break. If you're old enough to manipulate a controller, you've long outgrown this:






I can handle kiddy, but this is just obnoxious. I wouldn't have liked this as a kid. I guess the Japanese go for it.

It may be that my tastes have changed, but I don't think that is the cause of my current distaste for Nintendo. I can play and enjoy the old Zelda and Mario games. But more recent titles are constantly distracting me with terrible controls and artwork for babies and Japanese people. I don't think Nintendo betrayed their fans exactly. But they definitely aren't what they were when I was a lad.
Nope. I'm a 24 year old guy and that doesn't bother me at all.
Seriously, why can't we have both? Oh wait. We can. I can go from Fallout (the originals or New Vegas) to Super Mario Galaxy to Frozen Synapse and...that's perfectly fine.

I understand not liking a visual style. Hell, there are some games (often Japanese, I admit) that are too "cutesy" even for my liking. But I'm not going to criticize anyone for being childish when I know it's just a matter of preference.

Yeah, I know. The boring old "it's subjective" argument. Everyone is tired of it. But it wouldn't have to be said so much if people didn't keep forgetting it.
 

Dryk

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Mr. Omega said:
(Are you noticing a bit of trend here?)
Ah yes, the "no true hardcore" fallacy

Mr. Omega said:
Nintendo does have problems. They very blatantly favor their Japanese audience over any other, they seem deathly afraid of the M rating, and if they didn't make something popular, they'll usually be the last one to implement that something.
They also hand-hold at a level even 5 year old me would be insulted by. Again, not brought up as often.
 

him over there

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Dryk said:
Mr. Omega said:
(Are you noticing a bit of trend here?)
Ah yes, the "no true hardcore" fallacy

Mr. Omega said:
Nintendo does have problems. They very blatantly favor their Japanese audience over any other, they seem deathly afraid of the M rating, and if they didn't make something popular, they'll usually be the last one to implement that something.
They also hand-hold at a level even 5 year old me would be insulted by. Again, not brought up as often.
The hand holding wouldn't be such a big deal if it wasn't so obvious. A game like portal is essentially all hand holding, they let you figure it out for yourself but they do it in an environment where it's the only logical solution so you have to sooner or later. A little conveyance would go a long way.
 

Syzygy23

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Matthew94 said:
I challenge anyone to

#1 Define casual and hardcore gamers
#2 Say how you can make a game for them

The only definition I have gotten is "varying interest in gaming" which means you cannot make a game for a "hardcore audience" thus making the terms void of meaning.
#1: Casual Gamer = Plays games for 8 hours or less per week, owns few if any big titles. Hardcore = exact opposite. The hobbyist gamer, significant chunk of free time is spent with something gaming related.

#2: Casual Game = Mario Party. Anything that takes minimum skill or familiarity, pick up and play stuff, nothing too heavy on a deep story or fierce competition. Hardcore Game = Any MOBA or online first person shooter. High skill ceiling, lots of number crunching, strategizing, etc. Stuff that you can't just pop in your disc drive, have an hour or so of fun, and then move on with.

Obviously these aren't absolutes and there is always some overlap, hardcore and casual are just ways to distinguish between the two extreme ends of the gamer spectrum.
 

Dryk

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him over there said:
The hand holding wouldn't be such a big deal if it wasn't so obvious. A game like portal is essentially all hand holding, they let you figure it out for yourself but they do it in an environment where it's the only logical solution so you have to sooner or later. A little conveyance would go a long way.
In my experience that's the best way to teach a person anything. You make a problem that funnels them to the right answer but makes them feel like they're figuring it out themselves.
 

Signa

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Dryk said:
him over there said:
The hand holding wouldn't be such a big deal if it wasn't so obvious. A game like portal is essentially all hand holding, they let you figure it out for yourself but they do it in an environment where it's the only logical solution so you have to sooner or later. A little conveyance would go a long way.
In my experience that's the best way to teach a person anything. You make a problem that funnels them to the right answer but makes them feel like they're figuring it out themselves.
That's the problem with a lot of "casual" games though, they handhold you fiercely. I couldn't play the newest Zelda because of how much hand holding there was. I've been playing Zelda since the NES, and being told not only what to do, but how to do it grates on me fast. It felt like the target audience wasn't someone like me who was looking for another version of Ocarina of Time, but my mother, who just knows who Link is (and thinks his name is Zelda), and is curious about the most recent release of one of his games.
 

Jingle Fett

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Syzygy23 said:
Matthew94 said:
I challenge anyone to

#1 Define casual and hardcore gamers
#2 Say how you can make a game for them

The only definition I have gotten is "varying interest in gaming" which means you cannot make a game for a "hardcore audience" thus making the terms void of meaning.
#1: Casual Gamer = Plays games for 8 hours or less per week, owns few if any big titles. Hardcore = exact opposite. The hobbyist gamer, significant chunk of free time is spent with something gaming related.

#2: Casual Game = Mario Party. Anything that takes minimum skill or familiarity, pick up and play stuff, nothing too heavy on a deep story or fierce competition. Hardcore Game = Any MOBA or online first person shooter. High skill ceiling, lots of number crunching, strategizing, etc. Stuff that you can't just pop in your disc drive, have an hour or so of fun, and then move on with.

Obviously these aren't absolutes and there is always some overlap, hardcore and casual are just ways to distinguish between the two extreme ends of the gamer spectrum.
Sorry no offense intended but I gotta say, those are pretty terrible definitions of casual gamers and casual games.

By those definitions, me and my college buddies (who have all been playing games for as long as we've been able to hold a controller and have owned most of the major consoles at some point) aren't hardcore gamers. Little time to play games and little money with which to buy them. But we're somehow not hardcore just because we have less time for gaming than we used to? Or because we don't buy all the latest games? (Which half the time are crap anyways or rehashes?)

By that definition too, a game like Call of Duty isn't hardcore because it takes minimum skill/familiarity, is pick up and play, and doesn't have a deep story (it does have fierce competition but I've seen Wii Sports rounds that can be just as competitive). By that definition too, all the old 2D Mario and Sonic games also are casual games....
 

Don Savik

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Jingle Fett said:
By those definitions, me and my college buddies (who have all been playing games for as long as we've been able to hold a controller and have owned most of the major consoles at some point) aren't hardcore gamers. Little time to play games and little money with which to buy them. But we're somehow not hardcore just because we have less time for gaming than we used to? Or because we don't buy all the latest games? (Which half the time are crap anyways or rehashes?)

By that definition too, a game like Call of Duty isn't hardcore because it takes minimum skill/familiarity, is pick up and play, and doesn't have a deep story (it does have fierce competition but I've seen Wii Sports rounds that can be just as competitive). By that definition too, all the old 2D Mario and Sonic games also are casual games....
Yea, it really isn't that skill intensive. Its a game that 11 year old kids can pick up and play, as well as 40 year old adults that have never gamed in their life. Call of Duty is all about who sees who first, partly due to you dying in 1-2 hits, and partly due to the field of view being at a blinding 50 or something stupid.

Also, the old 2d mario and sonic games are the same. Yes, you can get exceptionally good at them, but how hard is it to learn how to jump and go right? Hardcore and casual don't have exact definitions, but games with higher skill ceilings GENERALLY are more hardcore, while pick up and play titles are GENERALLY more casual. It's not black and white, but its not non-existent either.

I think this is derailing the thread though. Its about Nintendo and its lack of transition to anything more than family friendly sequels that don't deviate too much from the previous lest they lose money. Imagine if they made a really really bad Zelda game, it would probably hurt them a LOT in the wallet. Sadly, I think they need to take a risk with their IPs because a lot of people are sick of Mario Kart 190819402, Mario Sports ________, Super Mario Ultra Deluxe Brothers 39102, and maybe another reskin of Zelda or Donkey Kong thrown in for good measure. They aren't bad games, but Nintendo isn't grasping the concept of "diversity". You can't run a system on ONLY E-T rated games. ZombiU could be a good game, but are any more M rated games going to follow it that are exclusive to the console? Remember Nintendo's drought of game's for the Wii? After the launch titles it took them till the end of the Wii's life cycle to release Skyward Sword, DK, Kirby's Epic Yarn, and all that.

They need to be consistent. Not yearly installments of the latest franchises, but just something ELSE. ZombiU and a few third party titles still isn't warranting the sale of another 250 dollar soon-to-be-dated console.