"No gods or kings, only man"

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The idea itself is very nice, but there are other ideas out there the seem "nice" but are half-assed... like "rights" or "one true love". The games themselves are about how full of holes the idea is and how it's bound to fail, and thats how Ayn Raind's original theorie on the matter is considered as well.
But really history is a good as an example as any that utopias or extremesim of any kind is bound to fail, especially the kind of extremism that tells you: "Only YOU matter".
 

Gildan Bladeborn

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nixubaby said:
reg42 said:
Nope. No way. It's like communism; great on paper, not so great in practice.
Don´t get me wrong, I am not very keen on turning to communism but the main cause of it failing in history has mostly been due poor and corrupt leadership.
Not exactly - the poor and corrupt leadership in question hasn't really demonstrated the failure of communism because none of them has ever actually implemented communism - they have all been thinly veiled dictatorships incorporating aspects of communism.

Granted, communism itself is a failed ideal that can never be implemented successfully without a fundamental shift in human nature - asking humanity to be universally altruistic, unselfish, and hard-working is akin to wishing for your very own unicorn princess.

As Ryan asks in the descent to Rapture, "Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?" - people resent forced redistribution of wealth, and such a system punishes risk taking and innovation by reducing any resultant reward. Our desire to strive to better ourselves takes a nose dive when the government just re-appropriates and redistributes any reward we would have received for doing so. Instead of a Utopian ideal where everyone contributes as they are able for the good of all, what actually happens is you produce a resentful society wallowing in mediocrity (and then it probably collapses).

Both communism and pure unrestrained capitalism are ideals that simply don't work, because neither properly accounts for fundamental aspects of human nature that will spell out their doom if anyone actually tries to implement them. We're just not very nice as a species.
 

jthm

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Monshroud said:
A world without religion, sure. As George Carlin said "if you do your research you discover that God is one of the leading causes of death. Millions of dead Mother F*&#ers all because God said it was a good idea."

Now I don't think that Andrew Ryan said anything about no morals or ethics. I think it was more about other people not imposing their beliefs on you. So if you had a problem doing something, you didn't have to do it. You weren't forced to do something you didn't agree with.

Actually I think Andrew Ryan's biggest mistake was that he kept a monetary based society. Had he removed money from the equation things may have turned out differently.
No they wouldn't have, people would have reverted back to barter economic models, trading in goods and services. Ryan's biggest mistake was taking his "free market" laissez faire system to extremes and not regulating plasmids (or any other business) until it was too late and allowing Fontaine to build an army of splicers
 

ghstman

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Susano said:
ghstman said:
I always took his state of nature to mean Anarchy, does that fit?
Also, did he say that to have a functioning society, you also must have a state of nature somewhere so that people have a choice?
Anarchy sort of fits. The problem with anarchy though is that it supposes that at one point some form of government existed. Hobbes is thinking in terms of a world where there is no government and there never has been one. No one's thinking "let's try democracy! That worked pretty well for the Americans!" or "British monarchy worked, let's try that!" He's supposing a world that never had government or laws and that law and order will rise out of it as a natural construction of necessity.

As far as having the state of nature on hand to drive choice, what he says is that those who have lived in the state of war will always have it in the back of their minds. They still have the "choice" to murder, they just choose to give up their right to do it and choose not to resort to it because they know that if they do, it might start leading back to a state of war. They don't want that, because life in the natural state sucks hardcore, so the idea of it coming back will always sway their decisions away from something anarchistic.

The state of war is always there. It may not be actively running its course somewhere in the world, but the memory of it is enough that it might as well be. Kind of like a dark scary basement. You went there once when you were a kid, there were some strange noises and scary shadows, so you were terrified and left. Years later, your parents finished off the basement, put up walls, carpet, a ceiling, etc... and you're old enough to know there's nothing really scary about it, but you still get a shiver up your spine every time you walk down the stairs.
 

tkioz

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jthm said:
tkioz said:
reg42 said:
Nope. No way. It's like communism; great on paper, not so great in practice.
Actually communism has never been fully tested, if I recall correctly the part where it all went tits up has been the early middle part of communism, the part where everyone is under the jackboot, later on comes the good communism, at least in theory.

Again the problem with communism is people are dicks.
The problem with communism is that none of you seem to know what the fuck it is.

Marx never supported a move over to communism now way of going about things. He predicted that free markets would eventually fail (like Rapture, or the United States if you want a slightly more plausible storyline) and adapt by becoming gradually more Socialist (unlike rapture, like the U.S. is painfully starting to do and like most of Europe has done) as the government takes control of key portions of the economy to prevent disaster and abuse. Eventually, Marx theorized, we could live in perfectly equal communes were we each had equal say in the running of our own lives and competition wasn't necessary as we simply did what we were able to and trusted others to do the same for the betterment of our societies.

It is true that communism has never been tried, because it isn't a system that can be implemented, it's just the natural result (in Marx's view) of societal evolution.
Marxism isn't the only political doctrine that is called communism. The USSR was more a Marxism-Leninism version, taking bits from both, that later shifted into Stalinism. The communism I was talking about was the one with three stages, revolution, dictatorship (which is used to enhance and educate the nation), direct-democracy (end result where everyone believes the same thing and can be trusted).

Communism is a bugger ton of different types of politics all lumped together under one banner.
 

PunchClockVillain

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Probably not, because people are people, and are bound to F it up somewhere.

I once heard that the best type of government would be a benevolent dictatorship. One person with ultimate power and the goal making life better for his subjects (kind of like what the the Christian God is [small]supposed to be [/small]). But that will never happen since those who seek power rarely are the type of person who are fit to lead.
 

Monshroud

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jthm said:
Monshroud said:
A world without religion, sure. As George Carlin said "if you do your research you discover that God is one of the leading causes of death. Millions of dead Mother F*&#ers all because God said it was a good idea."

Now I don't think that Andrew Ryan said anything about no morals or ethics. I think it was more about other people not imposing their beliefs on you. So if you had a problem doing something, you didn't have to do it. You weren't forced to do something you didn't agree with.

Actually I think Andrew Ryan's biggest mistake was that he kept a monetary based society. Had he removed money from the equation things may have turned out differently.
No they wouldn't have, people would have reverted back to barter economic models, trading in goods and services. Ryan's biggest mistake was taking his "free market" laissez faire system to extremes and not regulating plasmids (or any other business) until it was too late and allowing Fontaine to build an army of splicers
I can see what you are saying as a possible outcome. Ryan didn't have the proper checks and balances in place to keep everyone in line. Granted he probably didn't see the need for that since in theory everyone was cherry-picked to move to Rapture. I think he assumed that everyone was going to blindly follow his vision and not their own ambitions.

On what I was saying thought, I don't think people would revert to trade since there would be no need to do it. In a resource based economy you are using the technology to replace a majority of "work", there is no debt, and people are left to pursue their intrests to better the society. This is all hypothetical disscussion though, who really knows what would have or could have been.
 

Casual Shinji

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Maybe he should've put DNA mutating vending machines in his "utopia".

EDIT. Oh wait, I almost forgot to sound like a smart and progressive person: Religion, BOOOOOOOO! Science, YAAAAAAAY!
 

jthm

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tkioz said:
jthm said:
tkioz said:
reg42 said:
Nope. No way. It's like communism; great on paper, not so great in practice.
Actually communism has never been fully tested, if I recall correctly the part where it all went tits up has been the early middle part of communism, the part where everyone is under the jackboot, later on comes the good communism, at least in theory.

Again the problem with communism is people are dicks.
The problem with communism is that none of you seem to know what the fuck it is.

Marx never supported a move over to communism now way of going about things. He predicted that free markets would eventually fail (like Rapture, or the United States if you want a slightly more plausible storyline) and adapt by becoming gradually more Socialist (unlike rapture, like the U.S. is painfully starting to do and like most of Europe has done) as the government takes control of key portions of the economy to prevent disaster and abuse. Eventually, Marx theorized, we could live in perfectly equal communes were we each had equal say in the running of our own lives and competition wasn't necessary as we simply did what we were able to and trusted others to do the same for the betterment of our societies.

It is true that communism has never been tried, because it isn't a system that can be implemented, it's just the natural result (in Marx's view) of societal evolution.
Marxism isn't the only political doctrine that is called communism. The USSR was more a Marxism-Leninism version, taking bits from both, that later shifted into Stalinism. The communism I was talking about was the one with three stages, revolution, dictatorship (which is used to enhance and educate the nation), direct-democracy (end result where everyone believes the same thing and can be trusted).

Communism is a bugger ton of different types of politics all lumped together under one banner.
No, it really isn't. Marx coined the term, his socio philosophy is the definition. You can't just add "ism" to a despot's name and say that their attempt to run a nation is the same thing. A isn't B. If you want to say that "Stalinism" (which is a period of history confined to the borders of the soviet Union between the years of 1924 and 1953) is a great idea that wasn't implemented, I'd have to say that you were wrong on both counts, but at least you aren't mistaking him for a communist.
 

Susano

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ghstman said:
Susano said:
ghstman said:
Questions
Anarchy sort of fits. The problem with anarchy though is that it supposes that at one point some form of government existed. Hobbes is thinking in terms of a world where there is no government and there never has been one. No one's thinking "let's try democracy! That worked pretty well for the Americans!" or "British monarchy worked, let's try that!" He's supposing a world that never had government or laws and that law and order will rise out of it as a natural construction of necessity.

As far as having the state of nature on hand to drive choice, what he says is that those who have lived in the state of war will always have it in the back of their minds. They still have the "choice" to murder, they just choose to give up their right to do it and choose not to resort to it because they know that if they do, it might start leading back to a state of war. They don't want that, because life in the natural state sucks hardcore, so the idea of it coming back will always sway their decisions away from something anarchistic.

The state of war is always there. It may not be actively running its course somewhere in the world, but the memory of it is enough that it might as well be. Kind of like a dark scary basement. You went there once when you were a kid, there were some strange noises and scary shadows, so you were terrified and left. Years later, your parents finished off the basement, put up walls, carpet, a ceiling, etc... and you're old enough to know there's nothing really scary about it, but you still get a shiver up your spine every time you walk down the stairs.
Wow, thank you. That was a very good explanation.
Anyway, If I haven't made clear, I don't think Andrew Ryan's state could ever work the way he intended it to, and if it did, I probably wouldn't like it.
 

Punisher A.J.

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nixubaby said:
Having just played through the first Bioshock and half of the second one, an interesting thought crossed my mind. Would Andrew Ryans "utopia" work in real life? The idea of a society separate from outside politics and economy. A city with no religion. But most of all a community in wich everyone can rise to their full potential without the restriction of ethical dilemmas.
Might sound good in theory, but how about in practise? share your thoughts!
It broke down didn't it.
 

maninahat

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Mikkaddo said:
ah, well the problem is if everyone is allowed to "reach their potential" then you have to question what that potential is. After all, as Fontain in Bioshock 1 says in so many words "no matter how many top tier jerks you got down here, SOMEONE still has to wipe the shitters"
100% agreed. This was something of a serious problem with Rand's philosophy - her dream world appears to be one without a working class. Visionaries cannot succeed without the assistance of a capable work force, yet there seems to be no room for them in Rand's paradise. Rand had a lot of contempt for ordinary, working class people. You should read the snobby rubbish she was coming out with when she was describing a jury survice once.
 

Xanadu84

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Really, this question is far broader then Bioshock, and Bioshock is a facet of the debate. It's a very fundamental battle between collectivism and Objectivism, or ethical egoism. Ayn Rand is the poster child for Andrew Ryan, and her work would be a great starting point. To get an idea of the correlation between Bioshock and Ayn Rand, one of Ayn Rands most popular books was, "Atlas Shrugged. Atlas sound familiar? Bioshock is essentially a criticism of Rands work, Rapture being the dark dystopian counterpart to Rands Utopia. So if you want to see a view where Rapture could work, go read some Rand.

Personally, I say its bullshit.

Fundamentalism is inefficient by its very nature. When solving any problem, choices are power. The more potential systems you are willing to utilize, the better off you will be. You have more tools in your arsenal. Lambs hardcore, fundementalist, religious cult-collectivism and Ryans hardcore, fundamentalist, religious cult-objectivism both limit all choices to the one which is most extreme in one direction. I believe these philosophys will inevitably fail because they are to mindlessly simplistic. A proper society will act like a true scientist, or even more accurately, a true gamer: by observing patterns, discovering a potentially optimal one, testing it, and utilizing that optimal pattern based on real results, not assumptions.
 

Sanctus Hospes

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It is my opinion that humans, by nature, cannot sustain a utopia. Strength only comes through conflict, even at the most basic levels of living. To build your muscles you must first tear them then allow them to regrow, and the same is true for society.

Throughout history, whenever mankind has achieved any practical level of peace and stability it is inevitably destroyed soon after. Why? In my opinion, without conflict it can't sustain itself. The Roman Empire only began to fail when it could no longer afford to expand, same is true for the British of the 19th century.

A society with no struggles becomes complacent and vulnerable to a number of fatal events (invasion, tyranny, dissolution, etc) which usually sounds the death knell for said utopia.
 

Arawn.Chernobog

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nixubaby said:
Having just played through the first Bioshock and half of the second one, an interesting thought crossed my mind. Would Andrew Ryans "utopia" work in real life? The idea of a society separate from outside politics and economy. A city with no religion. But most of all a community in wich everyone can rise to their full potential without the restriction of ethical dilemmas.
Might sound good in theory, but how about in practise? share your thoughts!

You do know that "Andrew Ryan" is just a pseudo-anagram for Ayn Rand, the woman behind Objectivism and Objectivist theories (which go rather well with Nihilist ones)
Son, go read up on philosophy before you think you got some "deep thoughts" from a video game...
 

nixubaby

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Arawn.Chernobog said:
nixubaby said:
Having just played through the first Bioshock and half of the second one, an interesting thought crossed my mind. Would Andrew Ryans "utopia" work in real life? The idea of a society separate from outside politics and economy. A city with no religion. But most of all a community in wich everyone can rise to their full potential without the restriction of ethical dilemmas.
Might sound good in theory, but how about in practise? share your thoughts!


You do know that "Andrew Ryan" is just a pseudo-anagram for Ayn Rand, the woman behind Objectivism and Objectivist theories (which go rather well with Nihilist ones)
Son, go read up on philosophy before you think you got some "deep thoughts" from a video game...
Well actually I just saw how interesting of a disscussion this topic created in our philosopshy leasson, so i just wanted to see what kind of arguments would come up in the escapist forums. I really am surprised to see how many have actually bothered to think about this befor jus posting a plain "no".
 

Aulleas123

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People are naturally going to do stuff than uber political people (both conservatives and liberals) don't want them to do. Certain people will do science, certain people will worship, certain people will shout and scream at the top of their lungs, and certain people will want a quiet life hanging out and doing nothing.

I think the real moral element would be to let people do what they want to do so long as they don't hurt others.