No matter how open-minded...

[Guardian of Nekops]

Rascism.

Now, I don't mean stereotypes and the like, those are often funny and, well, they usually have a basis in truth. No, I mean the people who honestly think they're better than others purely based on skin color. The sort of people who are worried that America will be overrun, not with illegal immigrants who don't pay taxes and need health care (which I get), but with Mexicans. As if a shift in our country's skin color is, in and of itself, a bad thing, as if the people who live here won't, no matter where they come from originally, learn to speak English just as accurately as everyone else and be able to fill every role in society going forward, each individual according to his talents and work ethic.

Yep. Just don't get it.

 

[SaetonChapelle]

Snip

Sorry to burst your little bubble but... wait, no I'm not sorry. I'm amused. That's the word.

The thing is, atheism is not a religion. While it's certainly a 'belief' in scientifically backed facts and so on, it quite fundamentally differs from religions in a few key ways:

Atheist 'belief' is backed by scientific studies, experimentation and rational thought. Religions are based largely on pure theory with nothing to back it up.
Atheism acknowledges the possible existence of things not yet proved by science. Religion just asserts 'truth' without even acknowledging the gargantuan room for error or other more likely explanations.

It's not 'faith' if it's proven. Then it becomes fact. That is the base of atheism. Unless it can be proven, it can't be considered unvarnished truth. 'Faith' which is the cornerstone of religion is fundamentally different from this, which in turn shows rather eloquently that atheism =//= religion.

I will continue to respect your right to believe whatever you wish, but I do reserve the right to point out when it doesn't mesh even remotely with established facts. Does this make me a dick? An asshole if you will? Perhaps, but I don't see it, really. Well... not anymore of an asshole than the faith healer who convince AIDS patients to quit take their medication because 'faith will heal them', then condemn them for not having had enough faith when they inevitably die as a result. Or the people who say 'God wills it!' as the primary motivation for whatever atrocity they are committing. Or of course, the guy who believes he and those of his faith is favored by God/Jahve/Allah or the Great Donkey on the Moon over those who do not believe.

Or perhaps the parents who denied the blood transfusion that would save their kid's life, forcing the system to go through a long papermill to over-rule their decision... which in turn came along too late and caused the death of that child.

You'll excuse me if I don't find the minds capable of putting more stock in that kind of thing to be rational or something I can grasp myself. Being religious should not be a legally recognized shield from reason, logic and scientifically backed and supported treatment. I'm of course biased in this... but I've yet to see someone bring forth an actual logical argument that holds water in opposition of this.

Not sorry to burst your bubble here, but you've failed to argue that atheism is not a religion.

Here's why:
In order for something to be seen as fact by people, they need to have faith in it. Do you honestly think a scientist would come up with a scientific theory if he didn't have faith in it?

How many scientist believe that Hawkins theory about Black Holes is 100% fact despite there being no way it can be proven it. (Keep in mind that Hawkins himself lost faith in his own theory.)

I know what you're going to say. "It can't be proven, yet." And I say, "exactly." The other religions can make that same argument with the same result.
There's no logical way to prove a deity or all powerful entity exists, and no logical way to prove they don't exist either.

I've watched a number of atheist videos on YouTube, and none of them succeed in disproving the existence of theoretical deities or entities. All they succeed at is being a blatant attempt to justify intolerance towards, and bulling of, those who do believe in such things.

I mean why did you become an atheist?

I bet it was because you didn't have faith in the other religions, and needed something else to have faith in. You wanted something else to believe in. Thus you turned to atheism. You put your faith in atheism.

Faith = religion. Belief system = religion.

1+1=2 is only a fact because people have faith that it is a fact.

If mankind as a whole were to decide that the order the numbers 0-9 are to be changed say 0, 1, 3, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 instead of 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9.
Then suddenly 1+1=2 stops being a fact.

Facts aren't always concrete. If you really think about it, many are quite fragile and only exist because we allow them to.

Well since everyone already pointed out your previous flawed logic, I shall expand on your math statement.

Yes, we have created the organized system of the letters 1-9, however switching those numbers will have little to no effect.

Those letters are merely symbols in which we use. If you were to switch them, then the symbol "3" would automatically mean what we now perceive as "2". It is a fact that if I have one piece of matter within my hands, and another object is also placed in my hands, I will have two objects. That is physical matter. Switching those numbers would only change their initial meaning, not their symbolic purpose. It has nothing to do with the essence of "faith", as "faith" is a confidence or trust in something that has not been proven.

I believe there are different "levels" of faith. I dont have a religious faith personally, however I do have a faith that mankind will continue to scientifically strive (whether that be for good or bad). I however do not believe that it automatically creates a personally "pro humanity, we gunna do awesome~" religion.

As for me... hmm... whats hard for me to comprehend. I think rape. Now I understand different mental states that cause one to do or enjoy such an act, Its just hard for me to comprehend being in that state where I would personally believe that its okay to harm someone as such.

 

[JoesshittyOs]

Infant Circumcision:
You got me here, all i can say is cultural reasons...

But ill stop explain now and say when i cant understand:

I was circumcised and I generally like the way my wiener looks much more than I would without the skin. Other than that, I still am angry at my parents for allowing some strange man to get that close to Testy and the Testicles with a sharp object.

 

[Unesh52]

snip

snip

It's not precisely Pascal's wager, but it's the same idea, and it has the same problem. Do I get to post this video now?


One of my favorite rebuttals to any apologetic ever. Dat soundtrack... He and QuailaSoup too. They're awesome.

 

[Sinclair Solutions]

Not to sound mean it's just I find those so desperate for comfort as weak spirited.

As for the "more comfort" point, one must remember the old saying: "everything in moderation." Obsessing about anything, from religion to business to even science, will usually bring about a negative effect. It is up to the person, not the religion, to decide whether they should be wholly obsessed. Religions might teach you to devote your whole life to its word, but that is your decision. That is the blessing of free will!

I just want to squeeze into this conversation here...

I've been studying some pretty desperate places in my Anthropology class, and they're a lot more desperate than you or I have any familiarity with. Dirt floor and banana shingle roofs, they flooded my farm and killed my livestock and expected me to survive kind of desperate. People in places like that believe in religion for 2 reasons. 1) Because there has to be some place, even if it's after this life, where their children won't die of starvation or any number of entirely treatable (diseases we have all but eradicated in the Western World) illnesses, and 2) There has to be some place, even if it's after this life, where the people who did good will be rewarded and the people who did evil (who did all the things that ruined their lives) will be punished.

A wonderful addition! Thank you so much!

Now, could we really tell these people that they are being weak-willed? Silly? Idiotic? For giving themselves this comfort. I would never do so, for it gives them the hope to live, to keep going in a situation that seems utterly hopeless.

 

[Seives-Sliver]

I really can't wrap my mind around how people can't, or simply don't want to accept logic. And please, no Aethist supporters, not believing in something doesn't equal logic. I'm talking about basic aspects of things like, why people commit crimes, why people can't see both sides of a problem, and why people want to act like ignorant imbeciles just so they don't have to be wrong.

 

[Fanta Grape]

Erm, pardon me if I'm misunderstanding this, but why is the fact that you can't prove religion even an argument? Many religions by definition are based on faith alone and to prove it would be to go against the point. The origin of major religions may be unknown and therefore, there's no logical reason to have an opinion of it regarding its validity. Religion serves as a reference point for morals and ethics, and it often gives people optimism that they otherwise wouldn't have. Some people need a religion to help deal with the facts of reality, and some people can use religion to help out a community. The misuse and the misunderstanding of religion is the problem itself, not the fact that it exists and people follow it. Ultraconservative ideals pushed out by a few particular louder members are sometimes frustrating, maybe, but they actually DO have a higher moral ground than atheists. The reasoning is that we can't actually know any facts about the universe, only our perceptions of them and the definitions we've created. The one exception is cogito ergo sum and that barely qualifies. Without this sort of objective reasoning, morality and ethics don't actually exist. Religion, whether you like it or not, has its place in society and is a logical decision to make despite the lack of reasoning behind it. For the record, I'm not religious.

Oh, and I don't understand people who are "addicted to facebook."
I mean I use it about twice a day to check up on my D&D group and my organised events, and maybe sometimes to chat to a friend and share a song on youtube, but how could you do this for more than 10 minutes? It's just like checking an email.

 

[MiriaJiyuu]

There are just two things I cant stand, People who are intolerant of other peoples races & beliefs, and the dutch.

Okay, I have to ask, why the dutch?

 

[DarthFennec]

People who are horrible to their kids. This ranges from parents who punish their children with physical violence, to parents who disown their children, to parents who just don't care, to parents who expect the government to do their job for them. I absolutely cannot understand people like this, and I cannot tolerate them, no matter how hard I try.

 

[Unesh52]

But I mean, it's just sex. What's the fuss about?

It's abusing a position of power.

In a way that bidding your dog to fetch your slippers is not? Or is fetch violating the dog's rights as well? My point is that if it's a mutually enjoyed experience - or really just as long as the animal in question isn't much begrudged by it - then it's not harmful. It's not in violation of any right that I can see being reasonably attributed to an animal either.

 

[Unesh52]

There are just two things I cant stand, People who are intolerant of other peoples races & beliefs, and the dutch.

Okay, I have to ask, why the dutch?

Goldmember is Dutch, that's why.

 

[James Mann]

I was circumcised and I generally like the way my wiener looks much more than I would without the skin. Other than that, I still am angry at my parents for allowing some strange man to get that close to Testy and the Testicles with a sharp object.

I was never circumcised and im plenty happy with how mine looks. Which is partly my point, other than aesthetics, it serves very little purpose. I mean, it helps with the rare extreme cases of certain conditions, but seems hardly worth the precaution of lopping off a portion of your anatomy.

 

[TheDooD]

The bad thing about that comfort from religion is that it turns people into zealots just so they have more comfort in their hearts. Overall I just can't believe all that comfort mess I know they world is bad really bad yet if there was an all holy being they wouldn't allow a majority of the shit humans do on a daily bases. Not to sound mean it's just I find those so desperate for comfort as weak spirited.

I gone... Well I pretty much forced to a baptist church when I was younger and it kinda pissed me off that people bought into the bullshit these "holy men" were speaking I just couldn't stand the reasoning to get up early to listen to 3 hours of dribble. I can 100% agree with the good will to man and not do stupid part yet the whole fairy tales and undertones of hate I just can't agree with at all.

Well, for your first point, I believe that God does not (or maybe cannot (I'm not sure he is ALL powerful, since I have not really thought as much on that specific point)) intervene in human affairs. Perhaps he chooses not to for whatever reason. Maybe he doesn't want us to grow dependent on him. Maybe he wants the human race to have experiences, both good and bad. Maybe he knows that the bad things will inspire others, bringing about a greater good. Can we ever really know? Probably not.

As for the fairy tales point, the stories are dressed up to present a point. Sort of like any other fairy tale or even novels. They present points by presenting a situation. Adam and Eve may be more of an explanation of how we came to be, when they did not truly know, but the parables are simple lessons wrapped in a story lining. Makes them more palatable. Most of the "undertones of hate" are either wrongly inferred or just the viewpoints of people from thousands of years ago. Jesus's words are actually full of love and understanding.

As for the "more comfort" point, one must remember the old saying: "everything in moderation." Obsessing about anything, from religion to business to even science, will usually bring about a negative effect. It is up to the person, not the religion, to decide whether they should be wholly obsessed. Religions might teach you to devote your whole life to its word, but that is your decision. That is the blessing of free will!

Finally, the people in your church...Do you really know what they went through? WHY they were so devoted? Was it tradition? Did it help them go through bad times? Unless you know, you cannot judge.

I'll start with the last part... Tradition pretty much pointless. Helped them through bad times, God doesn't help you through that only you can fix that shit. I Judged them because it was completely annoying to listen to their shit for hours when I didn't want to be there at all.

I come off a bit pissed off when it comes to religion because my mom was heavily into the shit to the point where she would blast gospel music in 2 in the fucking morning to help her faith and all that led to was us getting evicted from our home. So seeing how faith bring about nothing as a young child pretty made sure that I can't believe in it at all.

Then I was forced to go to a church go to a church and deal with people I didn't care this was after I got put on the street and was forced to live with my brother's idiot girlfriend. She was such a hypocrite when it came to religion and overall I just couldn't stand how smug she was toward me because I didn't want to go to church.

 

[conflictofinterests]

There are just two things I cant stand, People who are intolerant of other peoples races & beliefs, and the dutch.

Okay, I have to ask, why the dutch?

Goldmember is Dutch, that's why.

But I am also a little over 1/4 Dutch. Are you 1/4 intolerant of me? ;_;

(Grandma moved to the US from the Netherlands with her mom, making me second generation)

 

[Marcus Kehoe]

The second part is how any church that says love your brother like yourself can in any way support war.

There is no way in Hell I'm going to love my brother like I love myself. Not even if he washes it first.

Then how about love your Neighbor, might have a hot neighbor.

 

[cgaWolf]

In a way that bidding your dog to fetch your slippers is not? Or is fetch violating the dog's rights as well? My point is that if it's a mutually enjoyed experience - or really just as long as the animal in question isn't much begrudged by it - then it's not harmful. It's not in violation of any right that I can see being reasonably attributed to an animal either.

My dog never fetched my shoes when i asked him to, and there was no bad consequence for that - thus i wasn't abusing my power. In fact, i'd say he was, because the only time he did anything with my shoes, he chewed them up ^_^

That said, sexual abuse of an animal who cannot reason against it, or has no way to defend itself, is an abuse of power. Do not forget that desire (on part of the animal) is not equal to informed consent, and informed consent is a requirement for a sexual act to not be abuse.

[note i'm not talking about medical or aesthetic considerations, both of which are obviously considerations, but shouldn't necessarily determine legality or morality]

 

[Codeman90]

Only took 3 replies to start the great religious crusade of Atheism vs. Religion. Might want to put something against that in the original post. Then it might take at least a page before the forum wars begin.

In any event what I can't wrap my head around is those who lack sympathy. Those who just don't care at all about other people. I think there is a term for that, but I don't quite remember off the top of my head. Maybe it's just because I had an organ transplant at a young age, so perhaps I have way too much sympathy. I'M HOGGING IT ALL, YOU CAN'T HAVE ANY MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Also that Hazama quote is awesome, gotta love Blazblue.

 

[conflictofinterests]

Not to sound mean it's just I find those so desperate for comfort as weak spirited.

As for the "more comfort" point, one must remember the old saying: "everything in moderation." Obsessing about anything, from religion to business to even science, will usually bring about a negative effect. It is up to the person, not the religion, to decide whether they should be wholly obsessed. Religions might teach you to devote your whole life to its word, but that is your decision. That is the blessing of free will!

I just want to squeeze into this conversation here...

I've been studying some pretty desperate places in my Anthropology class, and they're a lot more desperate than you or I have any familiarity with. Dirt floor and banana shingle roofs, they flooded my farm and killed my livestock and expected me to survive kind of desperate. People in places like that believe in religion for 2 reasons. 1) Because there has to be some place, even if it's after this life, where their children won't die of starvation or any number of entirely treatable (diseases we have all but eradicated in the Western World) illnesses, and 2) There has to be some place, even if it's after this life, where the people who did good will be rewarded and the people who did evil (who did all the things that ruined their lives) will be punished.

A wonderful addition! Thank you so much!

Now, could we really tell these people that they are being weak-willed? Silly? Idiotic? For giving themselves this comfort. I would never do so, for it gives them the hope to live, to keep going in a situation that seems utterly hopeless.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a firm agnostic-leaning-atheist, and for all intents and purposes in the first world there isn't a whole lot of use for religion. I just think that there are instances in which it does much more good than harm, and that for the most part, since for the most part people are religious, if not possessed of faith, religion isn't a bad thing.

I kind of view it as a tool to cope with different situations: Initially to assure ourselves that the world is a rational, ordered place, and then to assure ourselves that life is worth living. The first situation has largely been dealt with by science in the Western World, but there are still areas where the second require a little religion to shore up.

 

[Trivea]

People who know what they want to do in life and don't go for it, no matter how out-of-reach the final goal might sound, knowing that not going for it will fill them with regret for the rest of their lives. I've heard so many people who want to, say, be professional actors, but don't try for it because "that doesn't happen to normal people". I'm sorry, but I don't think all celebrities were born to it.