No Real Gay Characters in Bioware?

[Wutaiflea]

snip {/quote]

Unfortunately, Bioware doesn't get to be the exception just because they're Bioware. I agree that, without a doubt, all of the Hawkes and Shephards should be bisexual. That's just common sense. But just because he's bisexual that doesn't mean the characters he interacts with should be.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that Bioware has at least gotten more in favor of the same sex relationships with Dragon Age 2, but making every character bisexual is just ridiculous and a little bit unbelievable. Bioware is supposed to be all about story and character development, so they should just try a little harder when they make a character. Having straight, gay, and bi characters isn't restricting the role-playing experience, it's making the characters seem somewhat more believable and real thus enhancing the role-playing experience. Tacking bisexuality on to all of the characters just makes it seem gimmicky and cheap.

I think this is the main difference between our viewpoints on this one- you see all the characters as being bisexual- I see them as straight/gay/bisexual depending on how they react to what I chose to say or how I chose to act.

I don't think Bioware should have a free ride on equality issues, but I think for what is a flexible and adaptable game (as many of theirs are), it should be acceptable to have characters that can be made to fit as you like.

I agree with you though that maybe supporting random characters would benefit immersion-wise from having a set sexuality, presuming it were appropriate.

 

[Gralian]

I agree with you though that maybe supporting random characters would benefit immersion-wise from having a set sexuality, presuming it were appropriate.

And when would it be appropriate, exactly? Aside from unabashedly flirting with you or your party members, or walking into a brothel with men and women offering their 'services', i honestly can't think of any realistically sensible situation in which you meet a supporting character and they announce 'oh by the way, i'm gay' five minutes into conversation. Which would look even more stupid if you never saw that character again for the duration of the game as you would have to wonder why on earth they would suddenly come out with such an irrelevant detail. Are you proposing that they pander to stereotypes? Have gay men act feminine, or perhaps hyper-masculine because they're trying to cover it up? What about the women? Going to have them running around in buzz-cuts and a tank-top that says 'fuck-off or die' or be the vapid femme type who giggles and flirts with anything that has breasts? Because these 'identifiers' are the only way you could really tell - or immediately gleam - that a supporting character is exclusively gay, unless you were to meet their significant other in a later scene, and how many times have we had that occur regardless of orientation? Unless it was for a quest to check on a cheating spouse, there would be no reason for that either. It's all well and good saying that "it would benefit", but you have to think about implementation. So many people cry about lazy writing for DA2, and if you tried to shovel this into the story and force it upon characters and situations that never really called for it, you'd get even lazier writing.

 

[Wutaiflea]

I agree with you though that maybe supporting random characters would benefit immersion-wise from having a set sexuality, presuming it were appropriate.

And when would it be appropriate, exactly? Aside from unabashedly flirting with you or your party members, or walking into a brothel with men and women offering their 'services', i honestly can't think of any realistically sensible situation in which you meet a supporting character and they announce 'oh by the way, i'm gay' five minutes into conversation. Which would look even more stupid if you never saw that character again for the duration of the game as you would have to wonder why on earth they would suddenly come out with such an irrelevant detail. Are you proposing that they pander to stereotypes? Have gay men act feminine, or perhaps hyper-masculine because they're trying to cover it up? What about the women? Going to have them running around in buzz-cuts and a tank-top that says 'fuck-off or die' or be the vapid femme type who giggles and flirts with anything that has breasts? Because these 'identifiers' are the only way you could really tell - or immediately gleam - that a supporting character is exclusively gay, unless you were to meet their significant other in a later scene, and how many times have we had that occur regardless of orientation? Unless it was for a quest to check on a cheating spouse, there would be no reason for that either. It's all well and good saying that "it would benefit", but you have to think about implementation. So many people cry about lazy writing for DA2, and if you tried to shovel this into the story and force it upon characters and situations that never really called for it, you'd get even lazier writing.

I think that's a bit narrow-minded. I'm not saying every character should leap around proclaiming they're gay, but you do get quests involving couples, you do see couples walking around game areas- why not make some of them same-sex?
Fallout New Vegas seems to manage this effect pretty well- it's not like it can't be done.

 

[nobodysoldier25]

You know what you're saying with this statement, right? You're giving ammunition to the 'enraged straight gamer' that was in the news a while back saying that the 'hetereosexual male gamer had not been fully represented' because everyone was pretty much bisexual, among other things. If you're going to say that homosexuals are being misrepresented because everyone is bisexual instead of exclusively sleeping with the same gender, then they fully have the right to complain for the same reason and say that there are no more 'exclusive heterosexual characters' and you end up with a ridiculous bitching competition between straights and gays for no real reason.

Saying you demand Bioware make characters 'exclusively gay' comes across as incredibly petulant. What's the point? So you can say "HAH, now s/he's OURS and you straights CAN'T HAVE HIM/HER! HOW'S THAT FEEL?!"

If you're saying that homosexuality influences the personality of an individual, especially if it's a difference noticeable even when compared to bisexuality, then i think you have some serious issues regarding stereotyping people based on what should be insignificant private details that are only incidental to their character rather than a focal part of their personality and who they are. People should NOT be defined by orientation. I find your stance to be just as bad as the homophobic perspective, because you are placing people into caricature roles based on orientation instead of treating who they choose to have sex with as being a relatively minor detail about their person.

Not to mention video games are and should be about choice. Why should a gay or straight player be locked out of a romance with a particular party member? Maybe they like that party member best of all. I think all the characters should be made to be bisexual, or at least have the option of a romance available with or without the silly sex scene at the end as a reward. The point isn't to say 'woah look everybody in the world is bi!', but the give players that freedom to really connect with their party members on a meaningful and emotional level. Video games aren't produced to be social commentary; it's simply the audience reading far too deeply into something that isn't there or shouldn't even be an issue to begin with.

I just want to begin by saying that your post is overly aggressive and extremely skewed. First of all I just want to say that I am actually a gay man so I probably have more ground to talk about most of this than you do since you make accusations about what gay people want or how they are.

First of all, considering that 98% percent of the gaming industry, or at least the games therein, are completely heterosexual with no mention of alternate sexualities at all. How can a majority group that gets most of the representation in the world, not just games but THE WORLD, be mad because one game has almost only bisexual characters. To be blunt, that is stupid and should be ignored completely. However, an extremely small minority that gets almost no representation anywhere asking that they actually get some kind of representation is a little more justified. There is no competition. Sure the straight guys don't get one game. That's one game out of how many games made ever?

Point two, sexuality doesn't affect a person's personality. That is just shortsighted and bigoted thinking. I don't mean limp wrists and lisps. What I'm saying is that a character's sexuality affects how a person reacts to and is affected by certain things. Why would you immediately jump to stereotypes? The way you attack by calling my stance homophobic is just ridiculous. The point is that straight people react and respond to some things differently than people of alternate sexualities. That is clear as day and has nothing to do with stereotypes. And, just to add, your sexuality is not a minor part of who you are. Sexuality drives us. It may not determine your physical traits or mannerisms, but it most certainly affects you.

Point three, why should gay players be locked out of a romance option? In case you haven't noticed, gay players are locked out of many romance options. I would dare to even say almost all of them with the exception of Dragon Age II. And making a character isn't about pleasing people, it's about making a fully realized and developed character. How much a person likes a character should have no impact on that. Making every character bisexual, like I said before, is cheap and tacky. And why shouldn't games be social commentary? Why shouldn't games say something important? Why can't games be meaningful and deep?

I think everyone here should go and watch the Extra Credits videos on diversity in games, as well as their other videos. Games don't have to just be entertainment. They can be, and should be, more than that. We should be striving for that instead of trying to get the highest profit margin.

Also your statement on how they want to take a character from the straights so they know how they feel is just stupid. I don't know how else to say that.

 

[nobodysoldier25]

I agree with you though that maybe supporting random characters would benefit immersion-wise from having a set sexuality, presuming it were appropriate.

And when would it be appropriate, exactly? Aside from unabashedly flirting with you or your party members, or walking into a brothel with men and women offering their 'services', i honestly can't think of any realistically sensible situation in which you meet a supporting character and they announce 'oh by the way, i'm gay' five minutes into conversation. Which would look even more stupid if you never saw that character again for the duration of the game as you would have to wonder why on earth they would suddenly come out with such an irrelevant detail. Are you proposing that they pander to stereotypes? Have gay men act feminine, or perhaps hyper-masculine because they're trying to cover it up? What about the women? Going to have them running around in buzz-cuts and a tank-top that says 'fuck-off or die' or be the vapid femme type who giggles and flirts with anything that has breasts? Because these 'identifiers' are the only way you could really tell - or immediately gleam - that a supporting character is exclusively gay, unless you were to meet their significant other in a later scene, and how many times have we had that occur regardless of orientation? Unless it was for a quest to check on a cheating spouse, there would be no reason for that either. It's all well and good saying that "it would benefit", but you have to think about implementation. So many people cry about lazy writing for DA2, and if you tried to shovel this into the story and force it upon characters and situations that never really called for it, you'd get even lazier writing.

I think that's a bit narrow-minded. I'm not saying every character should leap around proclaiming they're gay, but you do get quests involving couples, you do see couples walking around game areas- why not make some of them same-sex?
Fallout New Vegas seems to manage this effect pretty well- it's not like it can't be done.

I completely agree. You reinforce supporting characters being gay the same way your reinforce them being straight. A hint here. A clue there. Seeing them with someone of the same sex. It's not like rules of defining characters suddenly changes because they're gay. It's not like straight characters go around talking about how much they love women and pumping iron. Now that's just silly.

 

[nobodysoldier25]

Jesus. Is no one pleased, ever?

Yes come to a thread that essentially boils down to representing a minority in games, a minority that doesn't get much or any representation, and ask them if someone is pleased about it. What answer do you think you're going to get?

 

[GGZeta]

I don't understand why people are so quick to define themselves by their sexual behavior, and even less do I understand why they want to be catered to in that regard.

Yes. Yes a thousand times. When I play a game I want it to be fun and engaging. I do not come into a game thinking, "this game better cater to a lesbian's lifestyle and point of view" but I do get really excited when it does. It's like an extra bonus, but it isn't necessary. And anyway, saying that adding a homosexual romance to a game "caters" it to that subset of the population's needs is REALLY shallow.

PS I played Mass Effect and plan on romancing Garrus in Mass Effect 2 because I enjoy ROLEPLAYING and I don't need view everything in my life through the lens of my sexuality.

 

[Nimcha]

I don't understand why people are so quick to define themselves by their sexual behavior, and even less do I understand why they want to be catered to in that regard.

Yes. Yes a thousand times. When I play a game I want it to be fun and engaging. I do not come into a game thinking, "this game better cater to a lesbian's lifestyle and point of view" but I do get really excited when it does. It's like an extra bonus, but it isn't necessary. And anyway, saying that adding a homosexual romance to a game "caters" it to that subset of the population's needs is REALLY shallow.

I agree with this! Although I think it would be cool to have an actual gay character in a BioWare game, this issue really doesn't bother me. I think these romance options have opened doors for other developers to see that including gay/bi/whatever characters in their stories is not something to shy away from.

 

[GGZeta]

=Agreed. I had Dragon Age characters romance both Alistair and Leliana. But romances were rather charming in their own way, Leli being charming and sweet and Aistair being adorably awkward. I would like to pursue the Garrus romance on my next ME playthrough, because he seems like quite an interesting matchup for Femshep. My first one romanced Liara, which was cute in it's own way.

The characters in Mass Effect (and most Bioware games) are rather well fleshed out so they're all a pleasure to interact with. Though my honest preference is for Tali and Garrus because I enjoy their characters and dialogue so much... And I admit I peeked at the end result of the Garrus/FemShep romance and it was just TOO CUTE to handle. (But oh so perfect for the character)

 

[Sgt. Dante]

Just because the PC is potentially Bi doesn't mean that the characters are, they only sleep with the PC if the romance option is high enough and in that play through they never really romance anyone else, and unless they talk about their past lovers they may as well be gay.

This presumes of course that different game saves are essentially different universes, so straight in one = gay in another and vice-versa.

 

[nobodysoldier25]

I don't understand why people are so quick to define themselves by their sexual behavior, and even less do I understand why they want to be catered to in that regard.

Yes. Yes a thousand times. When I play a game I want it to be fun and engaging. I do not come into a game thinking, "this game better cater to a lesbian's lifestyle and point of view" but I do get really excited when it does. It's like an extra bonus, but it isn't necessary. And anyway, saying that adding a homosexual romance to a game "caters" it to that subset of the population's needs is REALLY shallow.

PS I played Mass Effect and plan on romancing Garrus in Mass Effect 2 because I enjoy ROLEPLAYING and I don't need view everything in my life through the lens of my sexuality.

Agreed. I had Dragon Age characters romance both Alistair and Leliana. But romances were rather charming in their own way, Leli being charming and sweet and Aistair being adorably awkward. I would like to pursue the Garrus romance on my next ME playthrough, because he seems like quite an interesting matchup for Femshep. My first one romanced Liara, which was cute in it's own way.

That is just ridiculous. No is asking to be defined by their sexuality. What is wanted is recognition that they actually exist in a world that is clearly defined by sexuality. A lot of things, whether obviously or subtly, reinforce the normalcy of heterosexuality. There is nothing wrong with wanting people to know that you are different and that you exist in all of that. Being ignored is not the same thing as being accepted. Plus, characters are already defined as straight, so why is it so wrong to have them be defined in another way?

And, more to the point, no one is saying that the game should completely be for lesbians or gays or anyone. That includes straight people, which is why it's so nice that Bioware has the main character be bisexual. No one wants a game to cater to anyone. I don't think anyone has ever said that. What's been said is that side characters, most decidedly in Dragon Age II, could do with a little more character development and definition. Sexuality just so happens to be one of the ways to make them more interesting.

And no one is asking to be defined by sexual behavior either. Sexuality is more than just sex.

 

[nobodysoldier25]

Just because the PC is potentially Bi doesn't mean that the characters are, they only sleep with the PC if the romance option is high enough and in that play through they never really romance anyone else, and unless they talk about their past lovers they may as well be gay.

This presumes of course that different game saves are essentially different universes, so straight in one = gay in another and vice-versa.

But that's just it. Like I said before there shouldn't be "what if"s and "might as well be"s. There should be clearly defined characters. It isn't like there aren't character that are straight, specifically referred to as straight, and are, without a doubt, straight.

 

[Sgt. Dante]

Just because the PC is potentially Bi doesn't mean that the characters are, they only sleep with the PC if the romance option is high enough and in that play through they never really romance anyone else, and unless they talk about their past lovers they may as well be gay.

This presumes of course that different game saves are essentially different universes, so straight in one = gay in another and vice-versa.

But that's just it. Like I said before there shouldn't be "what if"s and "might as well be"s. There should be clearly defined characters. It isn't like there aren't character that are straight, specifically referred to as straight, and are, without a doubt, straight.

But they are, IF you are a guy and can romance a guy, they are gay, if you can't they are straight.

Conversation options and back stories don't really change to reflect a difference between the two, so why does it matter? If you want to get on with the character and are able, go nuts. restricting the players experience is usually a bad game design principle.

 

[nobodysoldier25]

Just because the PC is potentially Bi doesn't mean that the characters are, they only sleep with the PC if the romance option is high enough and in that play through they never really romance anyone else, and unless they talk about their past lovers they may as well be gay.

This presumes of course that different game saves are essentially different universes, so straight in one = gay in another and vice-versa.

But that's just it. Like I said before there shouldn't be "what if"s and "might as well be"s. There should be clearly defined characters. It isn't like there aren't character that are straight, specifically referred to as straight, and are, without a doubt, straight.

But they are, IF you are a guy and can romance a guy, they are gay, if you can't they are straight.

Conversation options and back stories don't really change to reflect a difference between the two, so why does it matter? If you want to get on with the character and are able, go nuts. restricting the players experience is usually a bad game design principle.

Again with ifs and thens. Why can't a character just be gay? There are characters that are just straight. That restricts some players. Why is that allowed? But then again I am talking not just about Bioware, but games in general. And yes it does matter. Did you just ignore the rest of the thread?

And it's more than just the relationship aspect. It's not about restricting the player. It's about making developed and believable characters, thus making a more believable game. I assumed a nice and detailed story with characters that reflected that was part of what people wanted from a game, but apparently people want nothing more than the gratification of the romances.

 

[Aron Eggertsson]

i dont understand how some people misjudge it. im straight and have never played any bioware games as a gay character but if some people prefer it so let them do it

 

[nobodysoldier25]

That is just ridiculous. No is asking to be defined by their sexuality. What is wanted is recognition that they actually exist in a world that is clearly defined by sexuality. A lot of things, whether obviously or subtly, reinforce the normalcy of heterosexuality. There is nothing wrong with wanting people to know that you are different and that you exist in all of that. Being ignored is not the same thing as being accepted. Plus, characters are already defined as straight, so why is it so wrong to have them be defined in another way?

And, more to the point, no one is saying that the game should completely be for lesbians or gays or anyone. That includes straight people, which is why it's so nice that Bioware has the main character be bisexual. No one wants a game to cater to anyone. I don't think anyone has ever said that. What's been said is that side characters, most decidedly in Dragon Age II, could do with a little more character development and definition. Sexuality just so happens to be one of the ways to make them more interesting.

And no one is asking to be defined by sexual behavior either. Sexuality is more than just sex.

I'm not suggesting any specific behavior is better than any other. As long as people don't rape, murder or kill puppies, it's all fine to me. I just don't understand the need certain people have to be defined by their sexual compass. That's certainly not a behavior exclusive to gay people, I've seen lots of straight people do it to. (Usually in bars, with shitty pick up lines.) I guess I just don't put the same weight on my sexual preferences as most people. Then again, I've never been an overtly sexual person either.

Well when you're the member of a minority that is often the victim of vicious and unprovoked attack, you tend to put quite a bit of weight on your sexuality.