No Right Answer: Are Gamers Dead?
- Thread starter Firefilm
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*sees video title* Oh, this ought to be good. Yup, no way this will stir up controversy.
*gets to image at 4:01* Oh yes, I see where you ar- WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT?!
*video ends* Seriously, what the fuck was that thing? I'm still freaking out about that.
OT: I'm more in the camp for the broad definition, but only if it's voluntarily applied. I know people who game who don't consider themselves gamers, and I'm not going to argue with them about it. Once you start putting a qualifier on like 'passionate' it's too easy for someone to say 'oh you don't count because you aren't as passionate as that guy.'
I've got to admit admit it was nice to see someone even vaguely discussing the issue and staying neutral about it. Could have done with that judgement at the end, though, regardless of it being applied to both sides. Also, it was nice to hear Chris talk, even tangentially, about games again.
*gets to image at 4:01* Oh yes, I see where you ar- WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT?!
*video ends* Seriously, what the fuck was that thing? I'm still freaking out about that.
OT: I'm more in the camp for the broad definition, but only if it's voluntarily applied. I know people who game who don't consider themselves gamers, and I'm not going to argue with them about it. Once you start putting a qualifier on like 'passionate' it's too easy for someone to say 'oh you don't count because you aren't as passionate as that guy.'
I've got to admit admit it was nice to see someone even vaguely discussing the issue and staying neutral about it. Could have done with that judgement at the end, though, regardless of it being applied to both sides. Also, it was nice to hear Chris talk, even tangentially, about games again.
I think we have a serious problem when certain journalists identify gamers as frothing consumerist zealots one day then insist anyone who's ever cast a flirtatious sideways glance at Angry Birds a gamer the next.
"Gamer" has just become a media abused term, warped to prove whatever point the writer is trying to make and inevitably contradicted at a later date and I'd recommend just staying clear of anyone trying to dictate to others on what a real gamer is or is not for the future.
"Gamer" has just become a media abused term, warped to prove whatever point the writer is trying to make and inevitably contradicted at a later date and I'd recommend just staying clear of anyone trying to dictate to others on what a real gamer is or is not for the future.
Human nature likes to take exceptions to the rule and prop them up as the rule. I've been a long time "hardcore" gamer and have tried to never be a troll. Unfortunately, by not doing something only makes you a silent participant. Its the vocal minority that gets the attention. All those window-licking mouth-breathers give us all a bad name.
But you know what, if someone were to ask, i'm still proud to identify myself as a "gamer." So are gamers dead? Hell no!
But you know what, if someone were to ask, i'm still proud to identify myself as a "gamer." So are gamers dead? Hell no!
*Sigh* Less exclusive?
Let's just say I fully disagree. I think gamers as a whole have been very inclusive, the vast majority I've talked to when asked about the increased presence of women in gaming have either been like.
"Thou-est musteth be-eth joketh, there arenth nay womenth on thy net!"
Or
"Sweet"
Or they are girls, because I've been in the kind of situation that a lot of the people I've been around in my life with by pure coincidence have been girls, and most of them are gamers. All kinds of games, MMO's, social facebook stuff, shooters, Mobas... Mostly Mobas.. I've stopped playing Mobas with them, they're like preying mantis except no intimacy, just biting heads off when I misfire an ability..
It's not my fault my mouse lags.. it was mouselag i swear.
Anyway-
I've not seen anyone saying 'Wahh, Women in my games, get them out of here- boys only!'
Gaming culture has in the recent years, or recent decade been tied a lot to the online community. The Online Community has by and large prided itself on anonymity. It's been very easy for gays, transexuals, nerds, bisexuals- women and otherwise people feeling a bit outcast or dis-empowered to find equality there under a banner of anonymity.
The problems arose with the.. What can we even call them? The people who believes the whole 'your rights end where my feelings begin' an incredibly loud minority usually recently out of some humanities study who believes that we should rid ourselves of our anonymity and cater ourselves to well- them. Just them, and that they stand for an idea which is the most inclusive of all, the idea that Gaming must be reformed into something that doesn't hurt anyones feelings.
They are very authoritarian in that way and I don't want gaming to become about politics, and if we are to become something that doesn't cause offense to -anyone- that is exactly what it's going to be about, politics. To have my information streams that I relied on turned into sites whose articles can push an agenda. It's a big industry now, Hollywood became political- some say we can't prevent gaming from becoming about politics, from splitting down the sides like this.
But this is why Gaming and by extension Gamergate which consist of people who care about videogames is so inclusive, it's because we don't care about gender or politics or any of that... We care about videogames and we care about the future of videogames and we are worried that if we let these people who want to control us with an agenda get their way, our hobby will push us away and our hobby will become exclusive.
A well grounded fear considering the way they've been censoring discussion, the reach they've had within the independant gaming community and the games media- the ability to completely blackout coverage on games made by people whose opinion doesn't fall in line with theirs- the ability to destroy careers... Banning people and excluding and ignoring and blocking and removing former 'friends' after this conflict started, due to hurt feelings over what is a fact of life- that even among your best of friends you're still going to disagree on certain issues.. Being an adult is about overcoming those disagreements and finding common ground, to be mature. You can't live your whole life in some sort of hug box, that's unhealthy.
It's unhealthy for people, and it's unhealthy for gaming. We should allow games of all shapes and sizes and themes, sure some of them may hurt someones feelings- sure some of them may be developed by someone whose political opinion we may disagree with. But they should still get attention because we as gamers care about games, we as persons may care about politics but as gamers we care about 'games'.
Gamers are indeed alive, they're a growing hobby and they're not going away. Our hobby is becoming larger than film, it is time we did something to make sure we don't allow the same mistakes to happen as it did to them- or at least try.
Let's just say I fully disagree. I think gamers as a whole have been very inclusive, the vast majority I've talked to when asked about the increased presence of women in gaming have either been like.
"Thou-est musteth be-eth joketh, there arenth nay womenth on thy net!"
Or
"Sweet"
Or they are girls, because I've been in the kind of situation that a lot of the people I've been around in my life with by pure coincidence have been girls, and most of them are gamers. All kinds of games, MMO's, social facebook stuff, shooters, Mobas... Mostly Mobas.. I've stopped playing Mobas with them, they're like preying mantis except no intimacy, just biting heads off when I misfire an ability..
It's not my fault my mouse lags.. it was mouselag i swear.
Anyway-
I've not seen anyone saying 'Wahh, Women in my games, get them out of here- boys only!'
Gaming culture has in the recent years, or recent decade been tied a lot to the online community. The Online Community has by and large prided itself on anonymity. It's been very easy for gays, transexuals, nerds, bisexuals- women and otherwise people feeling a bit outcast or dis-empowered to find equality there under a banner of anonymity.
The problems arose with the.. What can we even call them? The people who believes the whole 'your rights end where my feelings begin' an incredibly loud minority usually recently out of some humanities study who believes that we should rid ourselves of our anonymity and cater ourselves to well- them. Just them, and that they stand for an idea which is the most inclusive of all, the idea that Gaming must be reformed into something that doesn't hurt anyones feelings.
They are very authoritarian in that way and I don't want gaming to become about politics, and if we are to become something that doesn't cause offense to -anyone- that is exactly what it's going to be about, politics. To have my information streams that I relied on turned into sites whose articles can push an agenda. It's a big industry now, Hollywood became political- some say we can't prevent gaming from becoming about politics, from splitting down the sides like this.
But this is why Gaming and by extension Gamergate which consist of people who care about videogames is so inclusive, it's because we don't care about gender or politics or any of that... We care about videogames and we care about the future of videogames and we are worried that if we let these people who want to control us with an agenda get their way, our hobby will push us away and our hobby will become exclusive.
A well grounded fear considering the way they've been censoring discussion, the reach they've had within the independant gaming community and the games media- the ability to completely blackout coverage on games made by people whose opinion doesn't fall in line with theirs- the ability to destroy careers... Banning people and excluding and ignoring and blocking and removing former 'friends' after this conflict started, due to hurt feelings over what is a fact of life- that even among your best of friends you're still going to disagree on certain issues.. Being an adult is about overcoming those disagreements and finding common ground, to be mature. You can't live your whole life in some sort of hug box, that's unhealthy.
It's unhealthy for people, and it's unhealthy for gaming. We should allow games of all shapes and sizes and themes, sure some of them may hurt someones feelings- sure some of them may be developed by someone whose political opinion we may disagree with. But they should still get attention because we as gamers care about games, we as persons may care about politics but as gamers we care about 'games'.
Gamers are indeed alive, they're a growing hobby and they're not going away. Our hobby is becoming larger than film, it is time we did something to make sure we don't allow the same mistakes to happen as it did to them- or at least try.
I'm a gamer. To me a gamer is someone who plays games, and who plays games and is a BIT more interested in the medium than playing farmville once a month.
I dont think the term is dead, but I dont think the term is very meaningful either. Its about as meaningful as "swimmer". Whats a swimmer all about? Living in pools and only drinking water and wearing trunks all the time?
One has to divide a person from a term. You cant sum up a person with one word. Its even hard to sum up a culture with one word. When I say gamer I guess a lot of people think about raging xbox kiddies or frothing cod players. They exist, but thats barely a subculture. In fact its even just a small part of a subculture. Gamers are just people. As diverse in any direction as any people with a particular hobby.
I dont think the term is dead, but I dont think the term is very meaningful either. Its about as meaningful as "swimmer". Whats a swimmer all about? Living in pools and only drinking water and wearing trunks all the time?
One has to divide a person from a term. You cant sum up a person with one word. Its even hard to sum up a culture with one word. When I say gamer I guess a lot of people think about raging xbox kiddies or frothing cod players. They exist, but thats barely a subculture. In fact its even just a small part of a subculture. Gamers are just people. As diverse in any direction as any people with a particular hobby.
Ah don't worry, it's just a tooth fairy from Don't Be Afraid of the Dark...flying_whimsy said:
Good film, you should check it out.
Very awesome! Thank you.
It doesn't matter what words we use, as long as people associate negative stereotypes to them, what ever word you choose to use will become negative.
We can always always further divide amongst ourselves, by the type of game genres you prefer. I don't like the idea of just throwing games in the two "casual" and "core" groups though. It creates a false dichotomy and causes conflicts that don't exist. There are TONS of better defined genres, and some games have cross over appeal. when I was a kid, Nintendo had genre labels on their first games.
But to outsiders, they will still group all of us together, so attacking or decrying fans of different genres is pretty stupid, especially from fan press.
It doesn't matter what words we use, as long as people associate negative stereotypes to them, what ever word you choose to use will become negative.
We can always always further divide amongst ourselves, by the type of game genres you prefer. I don't like the idea of just throwing games in the two "casual" and "core" groups though. It creates a false dichotomy and causes conflicts that don't exist. There are TONS of better defined genres, and some games have cross over appeal. when I was a kid, Nintendo had genre labels on their first games.
But to outsiders, they will still group all of us together, so attacking or decrying fans of different genres is pretty stupid, especially from fan press.
The sad part is that I've seen that movie a couple of times now, and I still didn't recognize the little bugger. I'm just used to thinking of them as small and lumpy, so an out-of-context close-up of one totally caught me off guard.Kmadden2004 said:Ah don't worry, it's just a tooth fairy from Don't Be Afraid of the Dark...flying_whimsy said:
Good film, you should check it out.
Who is slantering the definition of 'gamer'? Gaming media.
Who is redefining what 'gamer' means? Gaming media.
The age old pop culture image isnt the problem. The arguement itself about Gamers being dead is so far out, its not even about gaming. It's so out of touch it's a non-news that has nothing to do with gaming.
The only thing making this news is to ask how, HOW could any gaming site post this with a straight face? "Gamers are baboons! Should we redefine what Gamers actually are?". Is anyones input even needed? They came up with the idea of gamers being something else, and now they want to redefine gamers as something more believable? What!?
This is a joke.
Who is redefining what 'gamer' means? Gaming media.
The age old pop culture image isnt the problem. The arguement itself about Gamers being dead is so far out, its not even about gaming. It's so out of touch it's a non-news that has nothing to do with gaming.
The only thing making this news is to ask how, HOW could any gaming site post this with a straight face? "Gamers are baboons! Should we redefine what Gamers actually are?". Is anyones input even needed? They came up with the idea of gamers being something else, and now they want to redefine gamers as something more believable? What!?
This is a joke.
Let's see...
I'm a gamer.
And I'm about 99% sure I'm not dead.
I feel fantastic and I'm still alive.
I'm a gamer.
And I'm about 99% sure I'm not dead.
I'm playing games and I'm still alive.TippiestRook said:
I feel fantastic and I'm still alive.
"You know what my days used to be like? I just gamed. Nobody insulted me. Or put me in a stereotype. Or fed me to insane media personalities. I had a pretty good life. And then "Gamergate" showed up. You dangerous, misogynistic lunatics."Rex Dark said:
Oh, GLaDOS, you have a quote for everything.
Oh man, great video. Gamers aren't dead, gamers are anyone that is passionate about gaming.
But both definitions were entirely inclusive, always have been. Even those knuckleheads screaming that some chick isn't a real gamer are generally trying to say that the person isn't passionate about gaming. Even though they're wrong for making judgments about people they don't know shit about the sentiment that a gamer is passionate about games resides.
So, great video.
But both definitions were entirely inclusive, always have been. Even those knuckleheads screaming that some chick isn't a real gamer are generally trying to say that the person isn't passionate about gaming. Even though they're wrong for making judgments about people they don't know shit about the sentiment that a gamer is passionate about games resides.
So, great video.
the question is the problem.
every now and then someone declares sth dead or asks is it dead?
hey you punks dead.
nope it isn't.
hey you rock'n'roll(or "guitar music") is dead.
nope it isn't.
if you feel that way: great.
doesn't mean it's true.
forums like this prove it basically.
i'm a gamer in that i do play games.
not mistreating ppl for any reason.
i'm a biker because i ride bikes.
i don't destroy forrest or behave rude in traffic.
some ppl like to use a term used for a group of people and try to brand it into sth negative and that's just bullshit!
i can't be blamed for every asshole that shares a hobby. or car manufacturer. or likes the simpsons.
every now and then someone declares sth dead or asks is it dead?
hey you punks dead.
nope it isn't.
hey you rock'n'roll(or "guitar music") is dead.
nope it isn't.
if you feel that way: great.
doesn't mean it's true.
forums like this prove it basically.
i'm a gamer in that i do play games.
not mistreating ppl for any reason.
i'm a biker because i ride bikes.
i don't destroy forrest or behave rude in traffic.
some ppl like to use a term used for a group of people and try to brand it into sth negative and that's just bullshit!
i can't be blamed for every asshole that shares a hobby. or car manufacturer. or likes the simpsons.
Relevant song:TippiestRook said:
As long as videogames are played, there will be gamers.
Gamer doesn't have a gender, a sexuality, a race or personality, it is simply someone who enjoys playing videogames and talks about them.
Saying that gamers are inherently *anything* other than people who play videogames is creating a restrictive stereotype.
A gamer can be anyone, all they want is good videogames to play.
Gamers (over the internet) ARE dead to me.
I'm virtually at the conclusion that healthy communication of ideas, feelings and passions doesn't happen exclusively over the internet between users, namely by forum and comment systems.
More than my defeatist feelings however, I don't want to pidgeonhole gamers (too hard). Other avenues of connection, such as doing just about anything with gamers offline can be a beautiful thing. I wouldn't even write off all digital methods of communication... but to save a tangent, my main gripe is with forum and comment systems; I just think they're ugly things now. If you've found other avenues to communicate with players, my opinion is that you're all the better a person for it. If not, I think you should re-evaluate how you communicate with others (if you even have the aim to be effective in getting your points across).
'sure some of them may hurt someones feelings-'? Is this as flippant a comment as I'm eyeing it?
...Probably not, but a community, or any group at least pretending to be 'inclusive' can't simply let its members be hurt, then call it circumstantial. A community has to first make the effort to understand why its members are hurt, then resolve, hopefully without having to cut someone off, but I can't think this should be off the table; some people just hurt others for its own sake. Without a community making the effort to understand why someone is hurt, even if they're someone you disagree with, even if they're some random schmoe to you, it's no different from being trampled on by circumstance, circumstance the community would let happen.
Of course gaming and gamers aren't going anywhere. That's not the fear. What is truly concerning is if gamers are actually going to be good to each other in this medium. You've somewhat evidenced it yourself; the game industry is rivaling film, but that notion is related to money, which doesn't always attract good people. Am I going to have a legitimate reason (not the games, but the people) to NOT share this medium with my family in the future?
All this to say: we have a bit more responsibility to the effort of inclusion, if not some strict game community, than merely talking about or caring about games.
I'm virtually at the conclusion that healthy communication of ideas, feelings and passions doesn't happen exclusively over the internet between users, namely by forum and comment systems.
More than my defeatist feelings however, I don't want to pidgeonhole gamers (too hard). Other avenues of connection, such as doing just about anything with gamers offline can be a beautiful thing. I wouldn't even write off all digital methods of communication... but to save a tangent, my main gripe is with forum and comment systems; I just think they're ugly things now. If you've found other avenues to communicate with players, my opinion is that you're all the better a person for it. If not, I think you should re-evaluate how you communicate with others (if you even have the aim to be effective in getting your points across).
I actually somewhat disagree with parts of this sentiment. It's good and necessary (to the point of base decency) to be inclusive of all peoples and perspectives we possibly can, but we also have to understand what ideas a community wants to express.Nikolaz72 said:
'sure some of them may hurt someones feelings-'? Is this as flippant a comment as I'm eyeing it?
...Probably not, but a community, or any group at least pretending to be 'inclusive' can't simply let its members be hurt, then call it circumstantial. A community has to first make the effort to understand why its members are hurt, then resolve, hopefully without having to cut someone off, but I can't think this should be off the table; some people just hurt others for its own sake. Without a community making the effort to understand why someone is hurt, even if they're someone you disagree with, even if they're some random schmoe to you, it's no different from being trampled on by circumstance, circumstance the community would let happen.
Of course gaming and gamers aren't going anywhere. That's not the fear. What is truly concerning is if gamers are actually going to be good to each other in this medium. You've somewhat evidenced it yourself; the game industry is rivaling film, but that notion is related to money, which doesn't always attract good people. Am I going to have a legitimate reason (not the games, but the people) to NOT share this medium with my family in the future?
All this to say: we have a bit more responsibility to the effort of inclusion, if not some strict game community, than merely talking about or caring about games.
Quote:MarsAtlas said:
So, no, people have read what was written, and it wasn't about a death of a subculture. It's about a petri dish of socially inept lonely basement kids who are consumerist zombies. In other words, the collection of the worst nerd stereotypes that most nerds have been fighting all their life. A lot of those people are in their late 20s and 30s, are socially well adjusted, have jobs and families and certainly don't live in their mom's basement and never have. It was always a rude and demeaning stereotype and now it's been put forward by other gamers.
Had this been one website it wouldn't have been half as bad, but when other websites jumped on board the 'gamers are dead' ship it stopped being something you can wave off with your hand, it became a coordinated attack on the gamer identity by the people who were in possession of significantly sized soapboxes. Most other sites didn't use this kind of vitriolic language, but the damage is already done.
My response was to stop visiting the websites that subscribed to this kind of...lunacy and to try to stay away from the backlash. Other people got really, really angry.
I've seen this argument before, that it's about the death of a subculture, but my reaction was the same as yours - people who say that haven't actually read the same Gamasutra article that I did.