No Sense of Strategy in Strategy Games

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Sep 11, 2011
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Somewhat of an aside, but only slightly.

People often say that RTS' are games of tactics and mechanics, not strategy. To take a Starcraft 2 example, a standard zerg vs protoss game will look like this: three fast bases into mass roach, followed by further expanding and cycling out roaches for infestor/corruptor/brood lord and turtling until you starve the protoss out and crush him in one massive battle.

Now, taking three fast bases? That's a tactic. Intentionally losing battles with your roach army to free up supply? That's a tactic. And that's often as far as people will go when looking at a game of SC (2 or Brood War) or Warcraft 3 or whatever the fuck.

Let's put that in terms of strategy: "Use a strong early economy to produce a large, cheap army, and use them to buy time for more efficient units that force the enemy to put his army where you have the advantage."

Another Starcraft example, this time from Brood War. There's a famous-ish video of the American protoss player Nony, high as a motherfuck, playing a game on Battle.net against some random guy. The random guy was being kind of a dick, so Nony wanted to beat him in as humiliating a way possible: mass arbiters (extraordinarly expensive support units). This strategy required that he delay his opponent as much as possible, so he used the tactic of a reaver drop (using a flying shuttle to unload a siege weapon right beside the enemy worker lines) to give him some breathing room while he worked on the arbiters.

Of course, there's still the mechanical side, the micro (how well you can maneuver and manipulate units) and the macro (how well you can manage your income and production).
 

-KC-

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wookiee777 said:
-KC- said:
Looks like you haven't played Warcraft 3. Give it a try. It's arguably the best RTS ever made.
Actually I have. But even in there, and it is a great game, my complaint still applies.
I'm sorry but if you don't find War3 not-tactical enough you're either playing wrong genre of games or you don't understand that War3 has nothing to do with statements which bother you.

e.g.

The only real thing to do is to make a big army that consists of some dudes that fight ground stuff and some dudes that fight air or faraway stuff and send them off in a big clump to the enemy base. Once there, all you do is smash stuff, you don't really capture or take anything from it, just reduce it to rubble. My brain never goes to work while playing, it's on automatic (or panic mode if I'm under attack.)
Maybe you could apply that argument for 90% of RTS games but in War3 you have to micro manage each unit, while knowing what type of damage counters what armor type, using Hero abilities correctly on right targets while creep blocking enemy units so that they can't reach your hero, not to mention that you have to collect resources constantly because slightest economy mistake could cost you a game (in competitive games literally sending worker few seconds late to mine gold or chop wood will cost you a game).

There is so much combinations and different build paths that you can use and apply to make each game completely different and you will never experience two similar games.

The amount and thinking and mechanical skill needed to execute certain strategies are breathtaking. Basically there is a huge gap between games like AoE II, Civ , Total War series and War3 which is more fast paced strategy which requires more skill and awareness. Personally I like all of them but I enjoyed War3 more because of it's complexity which is only seen after playing bigger amount of games.
 

Raven_Operative

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DustyDrB said:
Try Frozen Synapse. If you tell me there is no strategy in that then I'll...come up with something witty later.


..Oh! Oh! There's no strategy in your mom!

But seriously, Frozen Synapse might be my favorite strategy game. It is very chess-like, I think.
That game. Oh God THAT game. I have sunken far too many hours into perfecting setting up one turn's worth of actions than I am proud of. So many calculations to make and gambles to take. If you want a solid strategy game that is akin to real time chess, definitely get.
 

DioWallachia

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Frozen Synapse
Heroes 3 Of Might And Magic (TBS)
Sacrifice
Populous 3 The Beginning

and maybe Dungeon Keeper

You should try unique games like those to see how far the RTS can be taken.
 

distortedreality

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Sup Com made me think a little more than the average RTS. Some missions did come down to build massive fucking army and let loose, but most made you think on a grand scale from memory.
 

lexius87

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I suggest giving the Close Combat series a try.
It's old but it gave me a real feeling of having to think about what i was doing.
my personal favorite is Close Combat a bridge too far.
 

Meatspinner

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wookiee777 said:
MammothBlade said:
I'd say Shogun II Total War would be a good place to start, with highly challenging battles. Then there's the Paradox games series - Victoria, Hearts of Iron, etc, which focus on grand strategy and really go in-depth with world-sized maps and a fluid world. It's not just your faction which is fighting for dominance or basic survival. There are hundreds of factions and potential factions. Each paradox game is a mix between an alternate history sandbox and grand strategy.
Wow, seems like you've given me a lot to look into (as well as the other people who posted here). The Paradox games sound particularly interesting. Thanks!

EDIT: Which Paradox game should I start with? There seems to be quite a few...
These are probably the "core" Paradox games you should try out

Crusader Kings: A game about managing you dynasty and acquiring royal titles. Try the second one, the first one is really dated

Europa Universalis: Probably the biggest one, at least in scope. Global colonial empires and all that fun stuff :p. Timeline starts at the fall of Constantinople and usually ends at the napoleon wars. 4th game in the series has been announced and not that far from release.

Victoria: Very similar to EU. Industrial revolution with more focus on global trade. Ends with The Great War.

Hearts of Iron: World War 2 Wargame. Politics and army/navy/air force management with long term strategies involved. Second game in the series is easier to get into but is horribly dated. 3rd one more complex but very rewarding

I'd maybe recommend the HoI series if you are willing get bast the steep learning curve. otherwise go for EU. It's like the total war campaign map with more depth
 

NightHawk21

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wookiee777 said:
NightHawk21 said:
I second Shogun 2, or really any of the Total War games (I can only personally recommend Shogun 2, since that's the only one I finished but I heard ROME and Medival are good). The battles are great and I think you'll like it. Also if you head to steamtrades you can probably get ROME for like nothing.
Shogun 2 doesn't require Steam does it? I like Valve and Steam does have great deals (really great deals), but I don't agree with their license policy thingy, I know there's an offline mode, but when I get a game off Steam, I want to own it, not own the permission to play it.
I have it on steam, but as for whether it requires it, idk for sure, but I'm leaning towards yes.
 

Kopikatsu

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wookiee777 said:
but when I get a game off Steam, I want to own it, not own the permission to play it.
I just want to point out that no matter where you get a game from, you don't own the game, you're just purchasing a license that lets you play the game. It's been that way for a very long time.

Even the disks that you buy at retailers have licensing agreements. So to refuse to not use Steam because of that is a bit silly.
 

lordmardok

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Play XCom: Enemy Unknown. Seriously, if you think there are no good strategy games anymore, just play it. Accepting the fact that the combat system is a little wonky because of the random chance factor (every attack is assigned a percentile chance to hit or miss based on various factors) causing you to reload several times per fight, the actual game as a whole is awesome. In combat you are forced to make very active strategic decisions based on environment, available cover, high and low ground, enemy disposition, etc... Outside of combat you construct your base of operations, carefully considering the use of your limited space vs. the number of workshops/laboratories/foundries/etc... that you need.

There are lots of other things to consider but yeah, that's the nuts and bolts. Not a perfect game by any stretch but it's totally worth playing if you're a strategy junkie.
 

perkl

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lordmardok said:
Play XCom: Enemy Unknown.
That's not a strategy game. It's an Euro boardgame disguising itself as a strategy game. It's extremely simplified, sleek and the game has an well defined structure which leads to the end in roughly the same time every attempt (provided you don't fail somewhere along the way).

It's still a fun distraction and there are several worse games out there.
 

Souplex

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Jul 29, 2008
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For the most part, that problem's only in Real Time Strategies. (It's Real Time, or Strategy. Not both.)
Play some turn based strategies. I know they're hard to find nowadays, but there's always XCOM, Fire Emblem, Advanced Wars, and a few others.
 

SL33TBL1ND

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Real-Time Strategy is a bit of a misnomer. Most, if not all, of these games are actually about tactics and not strategy.
 

NiPah

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When you play Risk you don't play 1v1, you play a free for all with a group of soon to be lost friends.
Same idea applies to RTS, I can only speak for Starcraft but when you play an 8 person race war, Free for all, or one of my favorites 2v2v2v2 you're using everything from psychology to underhanded guerrilla warfare tactics to get the job done.
 

Thoughtful_Salt

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If you're looking for some games that require deep, meaningful strategies that are turn-based, then Fire Emblem (GBA) and Advance Wars 2 are pretty good choices. For RTS I would pick Rome: Total War.
 

TheCommanders

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Nov 30, 2011
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Quick note:

Tactics (n): The art of disposing armed forces in order of battle and of organizing operations, esp. during contact with an enemy.

Strategy (n): The art of planning and directing overall military operations and movements in a war or battle.

Basically, strategy is on paper, and usually created before conflict. Tactics are the actually execution of the strategy and changing it based on changing conditions on the battlefield. The old adage, "No plan survives contact with the enemy" refers to the need to be able to deviate from a preconceived strategy and rely on tactics if necessary.

Anyway, got that out of my system.

My personal favorite RTS games are the Total War games (particularly rome) and Company of Heroes.