No Sense of Strategy in Strategy Games

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Naeras

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SL33TBL1ND said:
Real-Time Strategy is a bit of a misnomer. Most, if not all, of these games are actually about tactics and not strategy.
I disagree. Most of the RTSes I've played don't involve tactics at all before you've reached a fairly high level, and before that the most important part is the build the player picks, and the execution of said build. Games are usually decided by which order you make the units in and how many of said units you manage to build and how well you control those units(strategy and execution) rather than making tactically solid decisions in your engagements.
 

CpT_x_Killsteal

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wookiee777 said:
Sir, I freaking LOVE you. I have the game you're looking for right here. It's called "Men of War: Assault Squad." It's got more strategy than all the AoE games combined and it doesn't even have construction.

Here's the run down. Ok scratch that, I just wrote a paragraph and it explained nothing. I suck at explaining games. Just think of it as a realistic WW2 RTS with the ranges toned down for the maps. One soldier can take out an entire squad if you use him properly, and no he's not a super soldier, he's just some conscript who picks up an enemy's Machine gun.

Basically, anything soldiers can do in real life, can be done in that game. And each soldier has their own inventory which you can go through, so you can pilfer dead corpses etc.

Also, 1 rocket to side of a Tiger Tank will take it out in one hit depending on the angle. Like I said, it's realistic. You bum rush the enemy, you're most likely going to get fucked.
 

oliver.begg

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depending how good you are at being able to learn from losing, HOI3 with all the expansion (get the HOI3 Collectors editon + their finiset hour) from gmaersgate, with no steam (all the paradox games are steam free there), might be for you.

you will be horriable confused for some time, but there is a really good AAR on the forums that guides a new player, and on member made a awesome YT tutorial as well
 

katsabas

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For me, SC II's campaign mode helped me build my basics. Attacking by day and holding out by night, there are a ton of missions to try. I felt pretty strategic the second time around.

BUT.

The best kind of challenge and test comes when up against somebody else. NOT against the CPU. This is not true only for the strategy genre. Find a friend of yours who can afford a game you can afford and play together.

Our noggin functions faster when faced with unpredictability.
 

Headdrivehardscrew

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Nope, no recommendations out of my hat for now, as I don't quite understand your problem.

Let's drop the tanks and the modern stuff for a moment and let's go back to, say, Warcraft III.

If the strat of your enemy turns out to be to fast tech to mass flyers, you have to adapt your strat to contain the risk of being pummelled from above with no means of actually damaging the flying things. If your enemy comes tower or tree rushing at you, you better find a way to counter that, and fast. Every strategy needs to be identified and must be countered with a proper, viable strategy. A fast expansion is cool as more income boosts your game all around, but the resources you just put into said expansion are bound to leave a gaping hole in your army/defenses for a moment. If your enemy is aware of that, he/she better switches to offensive mode to even things out a bit again. Players that stick to their on-rails strat without adapting to current, real threats are bound to get their asses and egoes handed to them. Also, actual battlefield tactics tend to be quite fast-click dependent in RTS games - remove units from combat before the enemy kills them (and gains XP), kill your own weak units (to prevent enemy from getting XP), go all-in with your best/strongest/hero units or keep them safe? Pretty much everything is valid depending on the situation. Turn-based strategy takes away a lot of the quick response time clicking, moving and cursing, but if it's proper done, it's all about numbers - stats and probabilities. High probability = low risk, low probability = high risk. I don't get why your example of Age of Empires is 'bad', it's actually close enough to reality to make sense as far as I'm concerned.

If neither old nor new RTS suits your fancy, I think you need to check out any and all turn-based strategy games or games with turn-based mechanics.

Currently my favourite of those would have to be X-COM. If you don't like that either, I really have no clue as to what exactly it is you're looking for.
 

Tanakh

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wookiee777 said:
Anyone else have this problem? Know any games that could really make me think and give me a sense of strategy while playing?
Starcraft II. I have never seen a game as deep in strategy as this one.

The problem being that you must be really, REALLY good to use strategy. That is, your mechanics and tactics should be polished to a degree where you don't worry at all about them, just about the strats.

There are tons of examples of this, from the crazy compositions that Ghost King Prime uses, to the amazing engagements just in the right second that Stephano does. But the one that I'll never forget will be the final of the GSL S3 where SEED beat MC with just strategy and mindgames. Heres a recap https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ed-pJKCIDYM , but if you really want to see the real beauty of it, try finding the replay commented by Arthosis.

Honestly SC 2 strategy is amazing... but i will never be good enough to be more than a decent player following the mechanics.
 
Jun 11, 2008
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As others have said RTS games are more of a tactics or economy game rather than Strategies but on to the important stuff. First off Age of games are really terrible at this as in those games you are only supposed to build 2 types of units to counter your opponents 2 types of units. Otherwise it takes too long to tech up and you get the raw end of the deal.

RTS games are all about area control and unit usage and CoH plus DoW are great examples of this. In fact those games are also a good example where unit diversity is important. If you just want to build tanks I'll just build AT guns, Rangers/Grenadiers/Stormtropers/etc and mines and then laugh maniacally as you run back to engineers and I cap all your stuff. If you just want to build Infantry I'll take some Shermans/Ostwinds instead of ATs then put down my mine flail and laugh manically while shouting "Yes" ala Bison.
 

Entitled

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oliver.begg said:
you will be horriable confused for some time, but there is a really good AAR on the forums that guides a new player, and on member made a awesome YT tutorial as well
That is, by the way, a good advice for every game. You can't really learn whether the gameplay mechanics of any game are really what you are iterested in, just from a description.

Look up some of those let's play videos where players are explaining what they are dooing, and see them for yourselves.
 

Bostur

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Strategy games, the genre that died many years ago.

The Panzer General and Fantasy General series were very good strategic and tactical games. PG2 is available on GoG:
http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/panzer_general_2

Most Paradox games are not really strategic in nature, but more economic and political. The Hearts of Iron series being the exception. HoI3 is available on Gamer's Gate without DRM as with all Paradox games:
http://www.gamersgate.com/DD-HOI3C/hearts-of-iron-3-collection

You may also want to check out Matrix Games a company specializing in old style strategic and tactical games. Especially the close combat series is one I used to like:
http://matrixgames.com/

Unity of Command is a new game that may be worth looking into, it got very good reviews:
http://unityofcommand.net/
 

cubikill

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Sorry but I think your out of luck. I play Starcraft 2 as my RTS of choice. And when you watch the pros play you can see this deep stragity in play. How you move your armies what build you open with how to engage his army if death and so fourth. The problem is when I play it cons down to who has the bigger army and has the better economy. I believe most RT games have stragity but its all hidden at the highest levels of play. So good luck in your search.
 

viranimus

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Clearly... Someone has yet to play the My little Pony RTS


Problem clearly solved... your welcome.
 

wookiee777

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Fat_Hippo said:
Now, which Civ have you been playing?
Oh, I play Civ 3 a lot, but Civ 4 is my favorite. I often play the mod Realism Inviticus instead of regular Civ 4. Damn, I wish they would finish it.

I have played Civ 5, and there are a lot of things I liked about it, but from the brief time I did have it, it's not as good as the ones mentioned above. I don't have it anymore because I got rid of Steam, and as far as I know it requires Steam. But I don't think the 1 unit limit changed much in the way of combat. I always just had them in a large block...and then the enemy city would shoot them all down. The addition of City-States was interesting though as was the redone Civics tree thingy.
 

Entitled

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Headdrivehardscrew said:
Nope, no recommendations out of my hat for now, as I don't quite understand your problem.

Let's drop the tanks and the modern stuff for a moment and let's go back to, say, Warcraft III.

If the strat of your enemy turns out to be to fast tech to mass flyers, you have to adapt your strat to contain the risk of being pummelled from above with no means of actually damaging the flying things. If your enemy comes tower or tree rushing at you, you better find a way to counter that, and fast. Every strategy needs to be identified and must be countered with a proper, viable strategy. A fast expansion is cool as more income boosts your game all around, but the resources you just put into said expansion are bound to leave a gaping hole in your army/defenses for a moment. If your enemy is aware of that, he/she better switches to offensive mode to even things out a bit again. Players that stick to their on-rails strat without adapting to current, real threats are bound to get their asses and egoes handed to them. Also, actual battlefield tactics tend to be quite fast-click dependent in RTS games - remove units from combat before the enemy kills them (and gains XP), kill your own weak units (to prevent enemy from getting XP), go all-in with your best/strongest/hero units or keep them safe? Pretty much everything is valid depending on the situation.
I think, the fact that you can name so many tactics and countertatics so quickly, is part of the problem. It doesn't mean that a game is actually deep, quite the opposite, it means that it has a rock-paper-scissors based combat, where there are only a handful of basic attack types, and obvious defenses against them.

These games encourage going through the motions with doing the obvious thing, based on your quick, instinctive thinking. This way, they are not much different from a football game, or a car racing game. You might call the decision on how fast to take a corner "strategic", but it doesn't actually require any intelligence.

On the other hand, in either a very stylized tactical game, like chess, or a very realistic battle simulation like the Total War games, you couldn't just list the handful of tactics that players go through, because they are all about emergent gameplay, about the millions of possible paths, and about thinking outside the box, not just about switching between defensive and offensive mode, and similar basic concepts.
 
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wookiee777 said:
NightHawk21 said:
I second Shogun 2, or really any of the Total War games (I can only personally recommend Shogun 2, since that's the only one I finished but I heard ROME and Medival are good). The battles are great and I think you'll like it. Also if you head to steamtrades you can probably get ROME for like nothing.
Shogun 2 doesn't require Steam does it? I like Valve and Steam does have great deals (really great deals), but I don't agree with their license policy thingy, I know there's an offline mode, but when I get a game off Steam, I want to own it, not own the permission to play it.
If you're not mad on steam than I would suggest Rome: Total War or Medieval II:Total War.

Neither require steam and are amazing strategy games.
 

Entitled

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SimpleThunda said:
The way in which you state things makes me think that you don't really have the right mindset to look at a game strategically.
I disagree with that. Ultimately, all tastes are aquired, so yes, it would be possible to keep playing the most famous RTS games, until you get used to them, but when there are hundreds of different games with different mechanics, it makes more sense to look for the ones that are fitting your taste the most, instead of locking yourself in a box with Starcraft for a year, until you learn to appreciate it.
 

Bostur

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SimpleThunda said:
I'm guessing that you have never played any of those strategy games in multiplayer? Believe me, the difficulty will get kicked up a notch once you start playing against other people. AI is never as smart as a human being, so if you want to find a hard, strategic experience you will have to search for it in the multiplayer section of the game that you want to play.

The way in which you state things makes me think that you don't really have the right mindset to look at a game strategically.

"Dudes with spears > dudes with horses > dudes with bows and catapults > dudes with swords > dudes with spears". You state that as though it is a simple format. Sure it looks like it is, but once you start applying it against a human being, you'll notice that formulating a win with just this format "dude A beats dude B" is much harder than it looks. The sort of questions you should be asking yourself are "How can I make sure my dude A will be able to attack his dude B without his dude C getting in between?" or "How can I make his dude A get over to location A so my dude B can kill his dude A".

As to what games I'd recommend:
Starcraft 2: Try doing this on a competitive level against other people. Difficulty is assured, but it's going to take a lot of dedication to become any good.
Total War: I'd recommend Rome, Medieval II, Empire and Napoleon. Shogun 2, eventhough it has been named, is perhaps the one that comes closest to rock-paper-scizzors and I found that one to be very disappointing. In the ones that I recommended, you're pretty much assured of a lot of a very complicated tactical system.
I agree that some of the RTS games have an element of strategy. But it is locked behind fast paced action gameplay. People who react slowly and think slowly will never get to the strategic gameplay. If you are facing 20 tanks with 5 spearmen no amount of strategy will help. Some players who like strategy will never be able to reach it in games like SC and AoE because they don't master the non-strategic aspects. One reason some people enjoy strategy games is the slow pace and having the time to consider the next move. For those people RTS games is the worst option.
 

Headdrivehardscrew

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Entitled said:
On the other hand, in either a very stylized tactical game, like chess, or a very realistic battle simulation like the Total War games, you couldn't just list the handful of tactics that players go through, because they are all about emergent gameplay, about the millions of possible paths, and about thinking outside the box, not just about switching between defensive and offensive mode, and similar basic concepts.
Aye, but it still all boils down to this: What is your goal, what are the means available to you, and how far are you willing (and able) to go? Is your steely determination matched by your strategic and tactical mind? Are you able to position your units so as to gain the maximum momentum, the upper hand? Are you willing to sacrifice security and safety (and some of your units) for but a brief moment in the hopes of making a decisive strike that cripples the enemy and/or improves your own odds to achieve victory?

It doesn't really matter, methinks, if we're talking Age of Empires, Warcraft, Starcraft, Total War, Daisenryaku, Battleforge or Chess, as it's always going to be a bit of a rock-paper-scissors approach to things, give or take some. In chess, the basic rules, the knowing about how you are allowed to move the pieces are truly very basic indeed. The concept is a bit twisted/complicated/refined in 'Chinese Chess', but there are reasons chess, as we know it, is pretty much number one. Then, there's GO... oh my god GO.

No matter what game/program/simulation/graph/statistic tool you use, simulation of conflict is always an abstraction of the real thing and, as such, there's always a certain level of simplificiation or standardization, as representations of reality that are not, in fact, reality are always but models.

If you want to push forward, you need the means that allow you to do so. That's usually firepower, inventions, intelligence or the element of surprise.

If you want to hold a position, you cannot always do that no matter what.

Even if you have to retreat, you must try to do so in an orderly fashion, as randomness and chaos almost always mean finding yourself on the receiving end of defeat, death and mayhem.

I guess I won't surprise you, but for the sake of the argument, let me make up my own simplified model of recent warfare to defend my stance why RTS/turn-based strategy games are not that bad. It's going to be rather silly, but I hope I can display how the rock-paper-scissors approach is valid for a number of situations and most ages of human conflict. Mind you that it still is a really simplified model, though. It's hardly ever all about the choice of units, but what you do with them that matters. You can make a decisive strike in chess with but pawns, and you can zerg rush your way to victory. With smart placement (and that bit of luck some people seem to be relying on so much) you can create choke holds and pressure points that put your enemy in a bad place with very little material effort, but they all tend to be rather tight, high-maintenance spots to find yourself in. Despair is always an actor in situations like these, be it in games or in real life situations.

Once upon a time, people invented planes. Planes brought with them significant costs and logistical issues, but they also allowed to bomb things and mow down plenty of enemies on the ground. How did people counter the threat of planes? With anti air balloons, explosives and guns, or pretty quickly with other planes.

Then someone came up with submarines. Ooh, nasty sneaky submarines. How can you fight an enemy you cannot see? Make him visible, by whatever means possible. Once submarines could be detected, the threat could, if not contained, but at least reduced to a manageable level.

The same thing happened when arrows and bows were invented and put to use against other humans. Animals can't adapt as quickly as we do, as their capabilities of solving problems are far inferiour to ours. In a way, a whole lot of our inventions are inspired by nature and animals that have evolved over millions of years, or stayed pretty much the same for millions of years because they were/are just that successful a design. Take cockroaches, for example. If we were as sturdy and resistant as cockroaches, that would rock, right? But who wants to be a cockroach, really? I cannot but adore and admire them, but I certainly wouldn't want to be a cockroach. So we need to keep inventing things to master life, contain the risk of death and defend ourselves against anything and anyone that might want to threaten us.

There are reasons we came up with big ass swords. There are reasons we came up with plate mail armor. There are reasons we abandoned these concepts and moved on. There are reasons we came up with drones not too long ago.
 

Tallim

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Another one that just popped into my head, mainly due to starting yet another multi of it, Solium Infernum. I'll wait while no one plays it........
 

w00tage

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Plazmatic said:
wookiee777 said:
NightHawk21 said:
I second Shogun 2, or really any of the Total War games (I can only personally recommend Shogun 2, since that's the only one I finished but I heard ROME and Medival are good). The battles are great and I think you'll like it. Also if you head to steamtrades you can probably get ROME for like nothing.
Shogun 2 doesn't require Steam does it? I like Valve and Steam does have great deals (really great deals), but I don't agree with their license policy thingy, I know there's an offline mode, but when I get a game off Steam, I want to own it, not own the permission to play it.
it simply isn't how items bought in an information economy work.
Just a note, that isn't true. Manufacturers can commit to any amount of rights and support for anything they sell, and consumers have the right to want, demand and vote for action to provide any amount of rights and support for anything they buy. Tangible or intangible is irrelevant.

Software isn't even a true intangible, it's a control system for electronic devices that is proprietary to the physical architecture, so "licensing" it isn't even justifiable imo. It's not a work of art, or a creative composition, or a unique design for a functional item like a house that qualifies as a creative work, or anything else that was licensable before the massive Congressional sellout to the software industry.

Prior to that, software was in fact covered under consumer protection laws. You had the legal right to return a software product to the store you bought it from and get your money back if it didn't work, because the maker was responsible for their claims of functionality.

That was an information economy that worked too. And it had far fewer sleazeballs lying, cheating and stealing from consumers, because the consumer had a recourse. There were some, like in any industry, but it was only when consumers lost their rights that the parasite population exploded.