Nobel laureate forced out of studies after making joke about women

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Yes, it could have been suggested he retire.. he is well within retirement age at this point. I feel bad for old men and their old distorted views. LOL

You're aware that you are displaying something that cannot be described in any way other than "age discrimination"?

Coming from someone who is so intolerant of discrimination by sex, it sounds almost hypocritical!

I am doing no such thing. I know quite a few old men who share no such views, of course the ones I know like that come from a culture that never shared such views of women so of course they wouldn't think such things. Him coming from a culture that had such distorted and disturbing views of women is not relation to him being old, however, him being old is just a part of the circle of life, and with that, much of what has been changed since his prime will pass with his generation, Some good and and some bad. I feel bad for old people because they often do not know any better. There is a reason we take care of our young AND our old, they need us to. That is not discrimination, it is part of human existence. I am the legal guardian for both my parents and helped care for my grandmother before her passing. That is just part of life when you get old, you will need someone to care for you as well.

It is not discriminating against him for being old by suggesting he retire, if he had been young, he should be fired. Retirement is an improvement over being fired. Having someone who is racist or sexist in a position of seniority over those in the field is not something that should be accepted.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

You're saying "private property" like it's something sacred. And indeed - an enterprise that uses it's ultimate power over it's employees to punish them for not fitting the blurry moral standards of said corporations leadership is in no way better than a government that uses it's ultimate power over it's citizens to punish them for not fitting the blurry moral standards of said government's leadership.

Yep. Property rights should be seen as sacred. I would even go so far and say that property rights underpin all civil liberties. Its 'ultimate power' is no different from selecting people right for the job ... unless you're saying companies should be forced to give their property regardless of their choice in the matter. Forgive me, but I don't need to give you shit just because you say so. If you make demands of me beyond my contractual obligations, I'm going to tell you what I'll tell any fascist; "Go fuck yourself."

Also - yes, we SHOULD build a system where people's right to work and express themselves stand above the right of abstract entities to gain profit.

Because that's totally not tyrannical. After all, filthy entrepeneurs. How dare they select candidacy in their workplace based on the merits they wish their employees to live up to. As if payment is enough to determine the merits of a labourer's presence. What we should do is give all company mission statements and company policies to the government of 'enlightened individuals' to dictate to others how people use their money and direct their workforce.

That's 'freedom' after all.

In the Soviet Union, as flawed as it was, the employers actually had no right to fire employees due to not liking them, or them not fitting corporate morality, due to human's Right for Labor being considered the fundamental one.

'As flawed as it was'... I'm an anarcho-syndicalist, personally. The difference between you and me is that I focus on increasing the liberty of individuals. Not telling people how they should run their business. How is any of what you're saying any different from 'dictating morality'? Why? How? Basic philosophy bucko ... how exactly is a company 'wrong' for picking its employees on the basis of merit, and rather creating a situation where no company can be given the means to direct itself and giving people the protection of their property?

You're not a classical libertarian. You're a fascist.

If the man was qualified and productive and fitted the STATE morality - employer was forced by law to maintain him as long as the man wished to stay. Now only if we could get us a system where you could be qualified and productive without dancing to someone's fiddle and that would be enough.

Apparently his employer disagrees. World's smallest fiddle will do...

No one ever got thrown into a labor camp or tortured by Inquisition for a joke. But a plenty had their careers ended and their reputations permanently ruined.

Honestly, if you persisted with this garbage about demanding of me to say whatever you want to me on my business and on my dime, and you kept insisting I had to employ you regardless... I'd likely call you a dickhead to my friends also. I'm sorry if this 'ruins your reputation'. I'm trans, received plenty of abuse ... why should I feel required to hire bigots? They might be 'qualified' ... but if you say for a moment that I would have to entertain bigotry in the pursuit of running my business, I'm going to tell you 'no'.

I'm also going to call you an "entitled little shit." I'm so very sorry that you disapprove of me saying mean things about a person who refuses to provide me any basic respects in terms of common decorum in the workplace. But hey, it's not 'free speech' if it's other people....

And now when the combined effort of oversensitive thought-policing crowd and paranoid corporate leadership does exactly the same - you chose to say "Eh, THOSE TIMES were actually a lot worse, we're having it good"?

As opposed to overbearing fascists telling companies who they should, or should not, employ? Or who does, or does not, have property rights? Or who does, or does not, have free speech?

Somewhat, yes. Because you being extra-polite was a key part part of your job. It is not however part of A LOT of other jobs. It's definitely not the scientists' job to be polite and pleasing to everyone and agreeing with societies moral standards.

Stupid comments get people fired, shock horror.

Quite the contrary. Not saying that they should be free from critique, but they SHOULD be free of consequences that damage their careers. Otherwise we're building a society where people who do not fit the moral norms that it has are told to shut it and BE HAPPY, or else. Simply delegating the punishing power from government to employer solves nothing.

Oh yeah ... any person should be able to say any level of stupid shit, about anybody, all the time. And totally should notreceive any disciplinary action for it. Or, you know ... we should accept that businesses don't want to employ people like that and in this age of social media, blemishes can be bad?

Welcome to the world of ever greater industry transparency!

Property-property-property-proo, you're saying it like Middle Aged men said "Royalty's Divine Right". Nothing about the concept of the freedom of speech is limiting it to state interference only.

Yeah, Heaven forbid if people say 'no' to people like you, who wish that they can kick down the doors of private property with your great big jackboots and tell them that they legally can't be removed, regardless of however detrimental their presence is to your home and business. Because 'freedom' ... While we're at it, we might as well demand that said people should get to extort that they be employed and paid, not on the basis of merit or utility to a company, but because filthy entrepeneurs deserve to pay their protection mon--er--'fee' to society just to be able to exist.

Fuck, the idea of free speech was conceived long before we had had established governments in their current form.

No it wasn't. We have monarchies still, and they persisted well before modern ideas of liberalism.

>B-but American Constitution~
World is not limited to America, and "free speech" is not trademarked by Washington. And Founding Fathers had no idea that one day private property might become a greater power than a government chair.

Property rights have always been seen greater than freedom of speech. Otherwise the rights and protections against theft and unlawful intrusion into our homes and affairs could be justified by 'making a speech'. You kick down my door and start screaming into a megaphone about whatever the fuck you're going on about now, in some states that may buy you a bullet in the face by a very startled home owner. There's also a good chance that the shooter will get off with saying; "They were a lunatic, I was napping, then the door came crashing down .. this guy started screaming at me, I got my gun and discharged a round as they started chasing me about the house, screaming at me."

I can also guarantee you that excuse of 'freedom of speech' will not cover you when a business owner gets the police to turf your arse, or you get thrown into the local county jail for a B&E charge if in the dead of night.

I'm also willing to bet the same thing will happen in Britain, Australia, New Zealand, Russia (Unless you're part of the mob, or Putin... so, you know. Part of the mob) ...

You don't have any sort of right to be "free of garbage",

I'll remember that when pondering whether I should turn off the tv when Tony Abbott makes an appearance ...

 

[visiblenoise]

Seems like there's a fundamental difference in values here. Everyone acknowledges that it's fine (perhaps even fun) to talk like this in the company of friends, but whereas some would actively discourage that kind of behavior in public forums, I think that it's a damn shame that we can't appreciate such mild and clearly hyperbolic ribbing as this. It suggests a severe lack of sense of humor.

 

[The Lunatic]

So, on the topic of "Was it a joke or not" I'll accept I probably should have put "Joke" as a quote.

However, to explain it a bit more fully, Sir Tim Hunt has given the impression that the comment was intended to be an ironic dig at his own experiences in the field, particularly in regards to his wife.

Now, I'm not a critic of comedy, however, I can see how one would mention briefly and in a jovial manner the circumstances. Especially in light of the fact he was at a conference for women, and thus clearly was not there to mock women.

It's kinda like getting irate and demanding the resignation of a presenter at an event like E3 who came on stage and said "Us gamers, total nerds, am I right?".

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

So, on the topic of "Was it a joke or not" I'll accept I probably should have put "Joke" as a quote.

However, to explain it a bit more fully, Sir Tim Hunt has given the impression that the comment was intended to be an ironic dig at his own experiences in the field, particularly in regards to his wife.

Now, I'm not a critic of comedy, however, I can see how one would mention briefly and in a jovial manner the circumstances. Especially in light of the fact he was at a conference for women, and thus clearly was not there to mock women.

It's kinda like getting irate and demanding the resignation of a presenter at an event like E3 who came on stage and said "Us gamers, total nerds, am I right?".

No, to be comparable it would be more like a guy coming on stage at E3 and saying something like " We all know the black guy can't be the super hero" and people calling for his resignation. Sexism is as bad as Racism.

Equivalent to what he said would be:
"we all know black guys cannot be scientists because..."
"C'mon really? A black guy wants to be a programmer? Don't be silly."
These are the same attitudes they have had against women, yet many only find it offensive when it is race but find it to be less harmful if is it against women, and that is wrong.

 

[Nerva]

Reading this, I'm getting the sense that very few people here have ever worked in the sciences, in a lab, for for very long if at all. What this prick said is by no means an unusual sentiment, or a joke, it's s shitty reality for your sisters, daughters, wives, mothers, etc in the sciences.

Instead of trying to make this about some pet agenda or the media, how about accepting that this old fuck was caught out for what he was. Every time someone opens their mouth public and accidentally says shit they normally would in private, you get this same bullshit reaction. "He's old!" -Donald Sterling "S/He's Drunk!" -Mel Gibson/-Reese Witherspoon and so on.

Or you know, that's the piece of shit you've always been, but you slipped and got caught. Lucky lucky that so many fellow bigots, or drunks, or just plain pricks will stand up for you knowing their eventual fate if THEY get caught.

 

[Thaluikhain]

So, on the topic of "Was it a joke or not" I'll accept I probably should have put "Joke" as a quote.

However, to explain it a bit more fully, Sir Tim Hunt has given the impression that the comment was intended to be an ironic dig at his own experiences in the field, particularly in regards to his wife.

Now, I'm not a critic of comedy, however, I can see how one would mention briefly and in a jovial manner the circumstances. Especially in light of the fact he was at a conference for women, and thus clearly was not there to mock women.

It's kinda like getting irate and demanding the resignation of a presenter at an event like E3 who came on stage and said "Us gamers, total nerds, am I right?".

You'll note he later clarified his position, saying while it was a joke, it was absolutely true. Also, in your example, the speaker is part of the group being mocked, which very much changes things. Making fun of one's own group is very different that making fun of others.

(Also not sure why being at a conference for women means he wasn't there to mock them)

 

[The Lunatic]

No, to be comparable it would be more like a guy coming on stage at E3 and saying something like " We all know the black guy can't be the super hero" and people calling for his resignation. Sexism is as bad as Racism.

Well, no, because E3 has nothing to do with black people.

Also, Sir Tim Hunt is highly regarded for his work in involving more women into the fields of science and has mentored many female students, and is married to a feminist. He

So, it's kinda more similar to Jada Smith going to the pre-screening of Hancock and saying "We all know the black guy can't be the super hero".

You'll note he later clarified his position, saying while it was a joke, it was absolutely true. Also, in your example, the speaker is part of the group being mocked, which very much changes things. Making fun of one's own group is very different that making fun of others.

(Also not sure why being at a conference for women means he wasn't there to mock them)

Uh.. Well, he does have many years of work in trying to bring women in the sciences, is widely known for his work in doing so, and was chosen to travel to Korea in order to speak there about it in the first place. Not included his various mentorship of female scientists.

So... I mean, in regards to "Working to get women into science" that's very much his own "Group".

 

[MonsterCrit]

Ah, I'd been reading about this yesterday. Particularly notable that the European Research Council actually forced him to step down, rather than it being a genuine voluntary resignation.

Colossal overreaction.

Gee.. Many I'd probably face the firing squad for some of the Blonde jokes I've told. Seriously. I read the joke and I actually chuckled a little. But of course he be a Sexist! Which I think is the new 'He's a tururist'. Yawn, honestly one of these days I'd like to see a man with the balls to respond to such criticism. Am I sexist, Yes, Got a problem with that? Take a number and get in line!

I would so vote that guy for president.

Seriously, does anyone find it hilarious that the knee jerk reactions that are being had to anything even vaguely sexist is curiously enough re-enforcing the sexist stereotype of women being all, ovverly-emotional, thin-skinned and over-reactive.

Or am I the only one who's noticed that. I mean this joke was the perfect example, it was a joke. I mean Just because I tell a 'A jew, a muslim and the Pope walk down the street..." joke doesn't make me anti-semetic. It's a joke.. lighten up, I mean a witty person would have commented, 'Good thing he devoted himself to science... he'd have starved to death as a comedian'. Zing!

 

[manic_depressive13]

It's kinda like getting irate and demanding the resignation of a presenter at an event like E3 who came on stage and said "Us gamers, total nerds, am I right?".

Except he's not a woman, so there is no "us". It's more like a non-gamer exec getting up on stage and talking about how gamers are sweaty neckbeards. You really think that would be taken well?

 

[The Lunatic]

It's kinda like getting irate and demanding the resignation of a presenter at an event like E3 who came on stage and said "Us gamers, total nerds, am I right?".

Except he's not a woman, so there is no "us". It's more like a non-gamer exec getting up on stage and talking about how gamers are sweaty neckbeards. You really think that would be taken well?

Well, Sir Tim Hunt has a history of getting women involved in science and has mentored many female students.

His continued work to get more women into science is what got him invited to be speaking there in the first place. So, in regards to working to benefit women in science, he's very much an "Us".

So, it's not really a fair comparison.

 

[Nerva]

It's kinda like getting irate and demanding the resignation of a presenter at an event like E3 who came on stage and said "Us gamers, total nerds, am I right?".

Except he's not a woman, so there is no "us". It's more like a non-gamer exec getting up on stage and talking about how gamers are sweaty neckbeards. You really think that would be taken well?

Well, Sir Tim Hunt has a history of getting women involved in science and has mentored many female students. DER EDIT

Replace "science" with "Showbiz" and you just described Bill Cosby.

 

[The Lunatic]

Replace "science" with "Showbiz" and you just described Bill Cosby.

You're comparing a man accused of sexual abuse to a Knighted Noble Laureate who made what he claims to be a joke while speaking an event he was invited to?

 

[Nerva]

Replace "science" with "Showbiz" and you just described Bill Cosby.

You're comparing a man accused of sexual abuse to a Knighted Noble Laureate who made what he claims to be a joke while speaking an event he was invited to?

I'm pointing out how little doing good things for a group makes you part of a group you're abusing, in whatever form. What are you doing?

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

No, to be comparable it would be more like a guy coming on stage at E3 and saying something like " We all know the black guy can't be the super hero" and people calling for his resignation. Sexism is as bad as Racism.

Well, no, because E3 has nothing to do with black people.

Also, Sir Tim Hunt is highly regarded for his work in involving more women into the fields of science and has mentored many female students, and is married to a feminist. He

So, it's kinda more similar to Jada Smith going to the pre-screening of Hancock and saying "We all know the black guy can't be the super hero".

You'll note he later clarified his position, saying while it was a joke, it was absolutely true. Also, in your example, the speaker is part of the group being mocked, which very much changes things. Making fun of one's own group is very different that making fun of others.

(Also not sure why being at a conference for women means he wasn't there to mock them)

Uh.. Well, he does have many years of work in trying to bring women in the sciences, is widely known for his work in doing so, and was chosen to travel to Korea in order to speak there about it in the first place. Not included his various mentorship of female scientists.

So... I mean, in regards to "Working to get women into science" that's very much his own "Group".

E3 has everything to do with black people just like science has everything to do with women. Both belong there too.( black gamers and female scientists are people too) The fact he said that he thought his statements were true means he should not be mentoring women at all. Him saying that about women is just as appropriate as someone saying black guys can't be a super hero" and being a comic film director, or a video game spokesperson. Him being married has no bearing on him stating that he thought this was " true".

 

[manic_depressive13]

Well, Sir Tim Hunt has a history of getting women involved in science and has mentored many female students.

His continued work to get more women into science is what got him invited to be speaking there in the first place. So, in regards to working to benefit women in science, he's very much an "Us".

So, it's not really a fair comparison.

To run with the metaphor, say that gaming exec played a role in making games slightly cheaper, or did something that benefited gamers in some way. Would that make ridiculing his audience okay? You really think his low opinion of his audience isn't affecting the content of the games he's approving? Would you be comfortable with him maintaining his position of power after he's made his feelings clear?

Your implication that his work to support women in science proves he isn't really sexist doesn't fly either. It's not exactly unheard of to want to help people you have a low opinion of. Plenty of activism has come from a place of smug superiority, and I'd posit it does more harm than good.

 

[Nerva]

No, to be comparable it would be more like a guy coming on stage at E3 and saying something like " We all know the black guy can't be the super hero" and people calling for his resignation. Sexism is as bad as Racism.

Well, no, because E3 has nothing to do with black people.

Also, Sir Tim Hunt is highly regarded for his work in involving more women into the fields of science and has mentored many female students, and is married to a feminist. He

So, it's kinda more similar to Jada Smith going to the pre-screening of Hancock and saying "We all know the black guy can't be the super hero".

You'll note he later clarified his position, saying while it was a joke, it was absolutely true. Also, in your example, the speaker is part of the group being mocked, which very much changes things. Making fun of one's own group is very different that making fun of others.

(Also not sure why being at a conference for women means he wasn't there to mock them)

Uh.. Well, he does have many years of work in trying to bring women in the sciences, is widely known for his work in doing so, and was chosen to travel to Korea in order to speak there about it in the first place. Not included his various mentorship of female scientists.

So... I mean, in regards to "Working to get women into science" that's very much his own "Group".

E3 has everything to do with black people just like science has everything to do with women. Both belong there too. The fact he said that he thought his statements were true means he should not be mentoring women at all. Him saying that about women is just as appropriate as someone saying black guys can't be a super hero" and being a comic film director. Him being married has no bearing on him stating that he thought this was " true".

I'll bet he has loads of black gay female friends! Probably his best friend is woooooman!

 

[SILENTSAM69]

The things he said were obviously jokes, and they are the type of jokes that have some truth to them.

Women obviously have a lot of power in today's society.