Nobody worships guns like America does

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Matthew Jabour

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Cerebrawl said:
Matthew Jabour said:
Now, I concede that in some situations, a small handgun is the best option for self-defense, maybe with a laser sight if you don't trust your accuracy. But for the love of god, why would you need an assault rifle? Or a shotgun? Or multiple quantities of each one? Have you pissed off any Terminators lately and need to be absolutely sure you're safe?
Ever seen a riot or natural disaster situation with looting? The guys sitting on their roofs with AR-15s in their laps didn't have their houses looted.

Likewise home defense isn't always against just one perpetrator, and few people have perfect accuracy when the adrenaline is pumping, do you want to run out of ammo and need to reload while fighting off half a dozen gangmembers? Maybe with your family cowering in the bedroom?
So, if I lived in a natural disaster area (I don't, and neither do any of my gun-collecting friends), I'll have to worry about the most coordinated looting incident ever as a platoon of gang members descends on my house? Seems like it might be easier to just, I don't know, evacuate?
 

MysticSlayer

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omega 616 said:
Grew up and got used to the idea of so many gun toting crazies walking around ... we have crazies in the uk, they will just have a harder time killing us as quickly.

Hell a school massacre in the UK would be a short lived low causality affair, in America it seems to be a quite common occurrence with a serious kill count on each go.
That's just it, a vast majority of us aren't expose to violence. The notion is based entirely ridiculous media paranoia and baseless stereotypes.

To begin on some actual facts, we could always look at this table [http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/preliminary-semiannual-uniform-crime-report-january-june-2013/tables/table-4-cuts/table_4_offenses_reported_to_law_enforcement_by_state_illinois_through_missouri_2013.xls] from the FBI. Keep in mind, I'm being really nice with this, as that table alone contains Chicago, Detroit, Flint, and St. Louis, which are arguably the four most notable cities for violent crime here. Speaking of them, let's look at the rates of violent crime:

Detroit: 1.01% violent crime (0.02% murder)
Flint (possibly the most dangerous city in the U.S.): 1.40% violent crime (0.03% murder)
Chicago: 0.009% murder (violence not given)
St. Louis: 1.0% violent crime (0.02% murder)

For the record, other major cities that sometimes get brought up with major crime like Los Angelas, New York, and Miami are well behind those four in terms of violent crime. This should give you a good idea of how far ahead those four are in comparison to the rest of the nation in terms of violent crimes and murder.

With that said, even if we consider some of the most dangerous places in the country, which are themselves sometimes far outdoing other well-noted "dangerous" areas, and we barely get 1.0% violence rates and approximately 0.01-0.03% murder rates, the idea of the U.S. as some dangerous nation where the population gets used to violence is ridiculous. Furthermore, most of those crimes likely take place in the drug and gang scenes, are domestic in nature, and/or take place in poverty-stricken and relatively poorly-educated parts of the city. Really, very, very few people are exposed to it, let alone enough to actually get used to it.

Now, I'm not saying all this to say we don't need better gun laws, or that the U.S. can't improve on lowering the crime rate. I'm saying this because the notion of the U.S. as a hotbed of violence where the citizens "just get used to it" is simply ridiculous.
 

senordesol

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omega 616 said:
senordesol said:
To be honest, I just picked a low ball percentage that was mathematically simple to work out (I SUCK at maths).

I believe that guns make it easy to mow down a whole heap of people in 30 seconds, take away that ability and a person going crazy with the next deadliest weapon will kill maybe 5 and injure a few more 'cos they will scatter and run away from the sword wielding psycho! Bullets run faster than people.

Making it harder to kill loads of people can only be a good thing, sure you can kill loads of people with a bomb but it's harder to make a bomb than to buy a gun.
Well, that wasn't 'low ball' at all. You were high by about 3 million.

Yes, firearms *do* make it easier to kill. That's the whole point. If you're in a situation where you're forced to defend yourself, you don't want to have to rely on your hand-to-hand or fencing skills. Having earned a black belt in Karate, I can tell you how quickly those lessons fade after a few years out of practice and regardless, there's not much you can do against a knife or crowbar even in the best of circumstances.
 

DudeistBelieve

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T0ad 0f Truth said:
senordesol said:
Basically: Americans value a sense of independence. When the only person you have to rely on to protect you *is* you, that's a very attractive notion indeed.

And, I'm sorry, but a shotgun is way better than a hand gun in a home defense situation. A hand gun only fires one tiny bullet at a time along a very narrow axis, a shotgun can get anywhere from 6 to 12 in a spread; highly increasing your chance of a hit.
The judge is a pretty effective handgun for the same reason as far home defense goes.

OT:
Matthew Jabour said:
People spend hundreds of dollars to purchase these high-performance killing machines for the sole purpose of hanging them on their wall and admiring them. Some people have gun collections, like stamps, only hundreds of times more wasteful. That is their constitutional right.

But I ask you, are we not better than that? Does it really behoove us, as a nation, to adore and worship the same devices that are being used to kill hundreds of men and women every day? (Yes, I know, guns don't kill people. When's the last time you heard of a crazed man with a machete massacre?) Couldn't we all just invest in a pastime that is just as cool, a lot more fun, and way less violence? Like videogames, for example.
Let's ignore whether or not "guns liberty but what about safety blah blah" for a second here.

Imagine we have the right own guns (As an actual natural human right. Let's just pretend ok? Please? Don't hurt me.)

Are you honestly going to sit here and complain about people's past times? People like collecting things. It's a thing people do. Some people collect stamps, some collect baseball cards, and some people collect weapons like guns or swords.

That it's expensive or that other people use those things to do nasty things doesn't make our hobby better. That's stupid.

And I'm going to answer your rhetorical question with a "Just a few months ago." There was a guy in China who hurt a bunch of school children with a machete or kitchen knife.

It was awful, and it happened because China (and a lot of other places not pointing fingers here) have absolutely crap mental healthcare and/or attitudes towards mental health care.

Believe it or not gun ownership doesn't affect crime like that as much as you'd think. One way or the other. It's oddly counter intuitive.
The incident you're citing happened the same day as the Sandy hook shooting, ironically enough.

And there was also just recently a "Terrorist Attack" where a bunch of people got injured/killed by knife wielding terrorist.

I'm still waiting for the left to come out and say we should ban pressure cookers after the Marathon bombing.
 

IceForce

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I see the usual bullshit arguments have made their way into this thread.

"I want to be able to collect whatever I want, no matter how dangerous it might be", and "People will just find other ways to kill if we take away their guns".

I shouldn't have to explain (again) why these arguments are completely stupid.

Let me just say, if it's so amazingly fun and cool and awesome to have everyone armed, then it's funny you don't hear people who live in developed countries where firearms are heavily restricted saying "Golly gee, I sure wish me and everyone else had guns like the do in the US! Wouldn't that be fun! We could have all the school shootings that they have!"

Put simply, giving everyone guns and expecting nothing bad to happen, is equivalent to giving everyone nukes and expecting no nuclear wars to occur.
 

IceForce

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T0ad 0f Truth said:
Are you honestly going to sit here and complain about people's past times? People like collecting things. It's a thing people do. Some people collect stamps, some collect baseball cards, and some people collect weapons like guns or swords.
Then why can't I collect nukes if I want?

I demand a constitutional amendment that allows me to collect the items I so choose to collect, no matter what they might be.
SaneAmongInsane said:
I'm still waiting for the left to come out and say we should ban pressure cookers after the Marathon bombing.
The difference is that guns are designed to kill things. That's literally their only purpose.

Unless you're going to argue that you can cook things with your gun?
 

Ryotknife

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A. assault rifles are illegal in the US. I am assuming you meant assault weapons, which are not assault rifles (in fact they include pistols and shotguns).

B. Cars is a major hobby here in the US as well. The older generations like to restore older cars from the 30's-80's. And that hobby is SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive than guns. Cars also kill more people every year.

C. Doesn't really matter if someone has 1 gun or 5,000. Guns are meant to be used with both hands, and humans only have two hands.

D. Shooting a bear with a revolver is a great way to piss off a bear and get mauled by one. There was a story of a bear who killed a hiker who unloaded 4 .38 caliber shots from his pistol into the bear. The bear in question took 16 shots to kill, 12 of which was from a hunting rifle. Granted, it was a big bear.

E. there is really nothing to do down South in the boonies. You hunt, fish, or fix old busted up cars. Internet is crap down there with the exception of Texas. Movie theaters are sparse, nor do they focus much on art and culture for the most part (sans Louisiana I suppose).
 

Euryalus

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IceForce said:
T0ad 0f Truth said:
Are you honestly going to sit here and complain about people's past times? People like collecting things. It's a thing people do. Some people collect stamps, some collect baseball cards, and some people collect weapons like guns or swords.
Then why can't I collect nukes if I want?

I demand a constitutional amendment that allows me to collect the items I so choose to collect, no matter what they might be.
That's not the point I was making. The people who already collect guns aren't hurting anyone. That can be shown. They're just not the people going out and causing the types of crimes people are worried about. The kinds of crimes gun laws target.

Being worried or scornful of people who just like collecting them is self righteous. It wasn't me making an argument for why guns should be legal.

And to answer your question Scale matters and context matters.

You can shoot a gun and not have its use infringe upon someone else's rights. Of course can be used that way, but it doesn't have to be.

Collecting and shooting ranges for example.

A nuke can't really be used without doing that. Not really. It causes damage to the environment and is remarkably dangerous. You already see that distinction. It's why no advocates for what you snarkily said my logic says.

Gun debates aren't so much about the right to own a gun, that's stupid.

It's about balancing wants of people (pursuit of happiness) and public safety.

They both matter. Use statistics and crime data. You can do that you know.

What laws can we do to try and balance those concerns. Sheesh.
 

Treeinthewoods

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IceForce said:
T0ad 0f Truth said:
Are you honestly going to sit here and complain about people's past times? People like collecting things. It's a thing people do. Some people collect stamps, some collect baseball cards, and some people collect weapons like guns or swords.
Then why can't I collect nukes if I want?

I demand a constitutional amendment that allows me to collect the items I so choose to collect, no matter what they might be.
Risk vs benefit. My shotgun can be used to protect my life and family, for hunting and for clay pigeon shooting without endangering innocent people in a giant radius. How exactly are you going to use a nuke in a way that doesn't endanger people in a huge area?

Comparing a gun with a nuclear weapon is a sign of ignorance.
 

AgedGrunt

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Firearms, just like knives, cars or even video games, is hobby, sport, skill, community and (this may come as a shock to some of you) they're fun for a lot of people. People who don't go shooting other living beings.

Violent video games get bashed as murder training programs and we face-palm. However, a lot of otherwise normal people will do the same about guns because they don't spend time with them, with people that use them, so they project an equal amount of ignorance.
 

Greg White

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I would pose the question of why I shouldn't be allowed to own a rifle, high capacity magazines, and as much ammo as I can afford?

I have no criminal record, no history of mental illness, and formal training on the weapon and its uses(thank you, US Army).

I pose no danger to anyone who isn't threatening me or my loved ones, so by what right would someone deny me the capability of doing a job the police have gone to court(see Bowers v DeVito, among others) over proving they don't have the duty to do?

IceForce said:
Then why can't I collect nukes if I want?
If you have the permits to possess and process Uranium then yes, you actually can.
 

Cerebrawl

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Matthew Jabour said:
omega 616 said:
Matthew Jabour said:
Yes, I know, guns don't kill people. When's the last time you heard of a crazed man with a machete massacre?
You would be surprised, I believe it's happened twice in Asia in the past 5 or so years.
Twice in 5 years? If we had that kind of track record, it would be laudable! We have a mass school shooting every couple of months here in America.
They don't mass medicate with SSRI's in asia. At least 90% of every mass shooter in the last 30 years has been on or withdrawing from SSRIs. The number is damn near 100% if you include other psychopharmaca. Since Prozac hit the market in '86, mass shootings have gone up by more than tenfold compared to the previous 30 years.
 

Johnny Novgorod

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Well it's like - no not like, but exactly - their second constitutional right. They certainly appreciate their right to carry guns. And I'm sorry it's never going to change because they could save a lot of lives that way.
 

God'sFist

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Honestly I agree with you OP, It would be nice if the nation had a better hobby than collecting weapons of any sort. But then again I like my swords. I really enjoy their beautiful designs and how they cleave through the air. I have gotten pretty proficient with them too and I can't see myself letting them go. If I had more money I would probably buy some more swords. I don't like guns because they're loud except for 22.s they are pretty quiet. I don't love guns and wish we had some better laws and regulations but mostly education on them. However just because we educate doesn't mean our little tykes will learn. I have a hard time finding a kid who actually care about Plato let alone a kid who cares what the difference between a clip and a magazine is. I don't really know the difference myself and nor do I care to. But yeah hobbies are hobbies and who am I to judge someone else's hobby.
 

Dirty Hipsters

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Matthew Jabour said:
Now, I concede that in some situations, a small handgun is the best option for self-defense, maybe with a laser sight if you don't trust your accuracy. But for the love of god, why would you need an assault rifle? Or a shotgun? Or multiple quantities of each one? Have you pissed off any Terminators lately and need to be absolutely sure you're safe?

I can't tell you how many times I've seen a Facebook post praising the latest model assault rifle, or a comment about 'Gone to get a new pump-action shotgun!" or some new accessory like glow in the dark bullets or something else that's completely arbitrary. It's ludicrous how crazy people get over guns here.
Assault rifles are almost impossible to get in the US. In fact, getting a fully automatic rifle tends to cost somewhere around $20,000, and requires six months of background checks and tons of paperwork submitted to the ATF. No one who goes through that entire process to legally buy an assault rifle is going to use it to commit a crime, it's just way too much work.

As far as why you need a shotgun? They're extremely useful for home defense for people who aren't particularly great shots, and they're also used for hunting. It's also useful to have more than one rifle or shotgun because they come in different calibers with different features used for different things. A shotgun used for hunting deer is not the same shotgun that's used for hunting birds, and that's not the same shotgun that's used for home defense, and none of those shotguns are the ones used for competitive clay shooting. The same can be said about ammunition. Different ammo types are used for different things, and it's not at all arbitrary. In fact, the wide range of different ammo types for shotguns is one of the reasons they're so useful for home defense. You can load them with 00 buckshot and very easily kill an intruder with one shot, or you can load them with bird shot or rock salt and shoot without having to worry about the shots penetrating a wall, or load the shotgun with slugs and fire at longer ranges in a similar fashion to a rifle.

Why do people in this country love guns so much? Because they feel threatened? No. Because there's some left-wing conspiracy to 'take our guns away'? Not that, either; if the government announced a ban on traffic cones, would everyone start hoarding those? Because they want to kill someone? Probably not (although, if your son takes one of your guns and shoots up a school, that mission is accomplished regardless.) So the only reason I can see is: because they're cool. People spend hundreds of dollars to purchase these high-performance killing machines for the sole purpose of hanging them on their wall and admiring them. Some people have gun collections, like stamps, only hundreds of times more wasteful. That is their constitutional right.
Some people like guns because it's a hobby. It's fun to shoot them, tinker with them, etc. Some people like guns because they need to protect themselves. People who live in rural areas tend to be far away from the nearest police assistance, so response time for a break in could be anywhere from 20 minutes to an hour, and people in rural areas also have to deal with the possibility of being attacked by wild animals. Hell, even in urban areas doesn't mean that the police are going to be able to respond to your emergency call immediately. Even if police response time is only 10 minutes, that's 10 minutes during which a criminal can do whatever he wants to you in your own house if you're unarmed. Guns are a great equalizer. A 90 pound woman with a pistol is just as dangerous as a 200 pound gangster with a pistol, and people like knowing that they don't have to rely just on their own physical strength for immediate protection.

But I ask you, are we not better than that? Does it really behoove us, as a nation, to adore and worship the same devices that are being used to kill hundreds of men and women every day? (Yes, I know, guns don't kill people. When's the last time you heard of a crazed man with a machete massacre?) Couldn't we all just invest in a pastime that is just as cool, a lot more fun, and way less violence? Like videogames, for example.
Funny you should say that since there was just such a massacre in China just 3 days ago. Over 30 people died, and somewhere between 130 and 150 people were seriously injured by a group of men using large knives.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-26402367
http://news.yahoo.com/separatists-blamed-china-knife-attack-33-dead-134410685.html

There's also been 7 attacks on school children in china knives and hammers between 2010 and 2012, with 25 children dying and another 115 injured.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_%282010%E2%80%9312%29

And that's just counting attacks against school children. There are lots of others, but information about them is more difficult to find. I know at least one other happened in 2013.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/26/china-knife-attack_n_3815300.html

So yeah, turns out that machete and knife massacres aren't exactly uncommon in places where they don't have access to firearms.
 

Dirty Hipsters

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omega 616 said:
Matthew Jabour said:
Yes, I know, guns don't kill people. When's the last time you heard of a crazed man with a machete massacre?
You would be surprised, I believe it's happened twice in Asia in the past 5 or so years.
If you think it's only happened twice in 5 years then you're clearly not paying attention. I already posted this in reply to the OP, but I'll quote myself again just to make sure you see this.

Funny you should say that since there was just such a massacre in China just 3 days ago. Over 30 people died, and somewhere between 130 and 150 people were seriously injured by a group of men using large knives.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-26402367
http://news.yahoo.com/separatists-blamed-china-knife-attack-33-dead-134410685.html

There's also been 7 attacks on school children in china knives and hammers between 2010 and 2012, with 25 children dying and another 115 injured.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_%282010%E2%80%9312%29

And that's just counting attacks against school children. There are lots of others, but information about them is more difficult to find. I know at least one other happened in 2013.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/26/china-knife-attack_n_3815300.html

So yeah, turns out that machete and knife massacres aren't exactly uncommon in places where they don't have access to firearms.
And again, that only counts china. If you were counting all of Asia the number of large knife attacks goes up even more. They might not be as common in other countries, but I know for a fact that similar attacks have also happened in South Korea, Japan, and Vietnam, though on smaller scales.

http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2012/08/23/2012082300917.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akihabara_massacre
 

Therumancer

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Matthew Jabour said:
If I had to cite the biggest area of friction between me and my relatives, it would be gun laws. I hold the opinion that maybe it would be nice if people stopped shooting each other for a few minutes, while they hold that they have a right and a need for guns - which is true. However, they have also convinced me of one other thing; that in America, we worship guns like nobody else does.

Now, I concede that in some situations, a small handgun is the best option for self-defense, maybe with a laser sight if you don't trust your accuracy. But for the love of god, why would you need an assault rifle? Or a shotgun? Or multiple quantities of each one? Have you pissed off any Terminators lately and need to be absolutely sure you're safe?

I can't tell you how many times I've seen a Facebook post praising the latest model assault rifle, or a comment about 'Gone to get a new pump-action shotgun!" or some new accessory like glow in the dark bullets or something else that's completely arbitrary. It's ludicrous how crazy people get over guns here.

Why do people in this country love guns so much? Because they feel threatened? No. Because there's some left-wing conspiracy to 'take our guns away'? Not that, either; if the government announced a ban on traffic cones, would everyone start hoarding those? Because they want to kill someone? Probably not (although, if your son takes one of your guns and shoots up a school, that mission is accomplished regardless.) So the only reason I can see is: because they're cool. People spend hundreds of dollars to purchase these high-performance killing machines for the sole purpose of hanging them on their wall and admiring them. Some people have gun collections, like stamps, only hundreds of times more wasteful. That is their constitutional right.

But I ask you, are we not better than that? Does it really behoove us, as a nation, to adore and worship the same devices that are being used to kill hundreds of men and women every day? (Yes, I know, guns don't kill people. When's the last time you heard of a crazed man with a machete massacre?) Couldn't we all just invest in a pastime that is just as cool, a lot more fun, and way less violence? Like videogames, for example.

Bonus: Imagine a Hoarders episode where they visited someone whose gun collection had gotten out of control. Now imagine the sheer magnitude of backlash that would come out of that.

The thing is that the right to bear arms is something most "civilized" countries won't allow. It's also a big part of Americana due to the very point that an armed populance is by definition never truly at the mercy of the government and authorities. At the end of the day you always have the right to go down shooting. The authorities can handle an armed individual, or even a small group of armed individuals, but when it comes to large scale, popular uprisings, or people becoming genuinely threatened by the laws, it's something the government can't generally handle. Sure, in theory if the government decided to unleash tanks and jet fighters on a large scale revolt, they could massacre people, but in doing so would level their own country, and the America they would wind up ruling over wouldn't be close to what they want.

It should also be noted that the right to bear arms is part of what makes the US the most free nation in the world. A lot of countries dispute this claim, but part of the problem is the people there don't even fully understand their own situation. For example the UK and Canada are countries that oftentimes have tried to dispute the whole "America is more free than anyone else" claim, but in reality not only are those populations largely disarmed in comparison, they also have far more draconian law enforcement of a sort that just wouldn't fly in the US. The UK for example has large amounts of public surveillance, and Canada has it's police in possession of "black warrants" which pretty much allow them to suspend the usual rights of Canadians at any given time (even if the use has to be justified after the fact). A point I bring up occasionally in the context of how the US can have tighter security without turning into a Nazi-like state, going by the example of some of our allies. What's more I'd actually be more comfortable with the government of the US doing a lot of this stuff as things stand now given the armament of the population, than I would be with comparatively defenseless populations.

It should also be noted that "The Right To Bear Arms" has protected people from a ton of things without them ever realizing it, especially on a state or local level. See, politicians can pass whatever laws they want, but at the end of the day the police actually have to go out and enforce those laws. While generally pro-police, one important balance in the US that I believe in is that with an armed population it means the police themselves tend to become a sort of arbiter of fairness in laws. At the end of the day some cop has to risk getting his head blown off to do his job, he doesn't have the advantage many police around the world do of being armed when the population in general is reliably vulnerable. This means at the end of the day a cop is not going to put his butt on the line to shake people down over some politician's novelty law or personal power trip. The police themselves have to believe there is some value in what they are doing. If some politician does something like ban cell phones in their town without the approval of the people who live there, at the end of the day it comes down to the cop deciding whether it's really worth trying to shake people down for their phones, knowing that some dude might just pull out a gun to protect their property, be a bit faster, and put a hole the size of a beer can through the officer's head. If you've ever looked at "strange but true laws" that have wound up on the books, some of the crazier ones never went anywhere because at the end of the day the cops can't act like a Waffen SS unit and practically go running around enforcing any law they are told to. Politicians hate it, but in the end it's always something of a negotiation with the police at the bottom of the barrel who actually have to be willing to take the risks.

When it comes to the various mass shootings and such in the US, the bottom line is that it's bad, but it's actually a small price to pay compared to the things that would happen without this level of armament. A lot of people do not realize what a powerful safeguard our armament has been over the years. What's more, while a gun makes things easier, lack of one is not going to make someone intent on mass murder any less likely to do it. Look at Asia for example where we've had people scoring massive body counts by going berserk in subway stations, or the gassings in Japan (again also in Subways, which are great areas for this kind of thing due to lots of people being penned into an area without an easy method of escape).

I'd also point out that the US's level of armament is not all that unusual, just within the first world. Throughout a lot of nations military service is part of citizenship, and most of the population is armed. One of the big concerns over dealing with The Middle East (and why I was against "winning the peace" and engaging in police actions) is simply how well armed a lot of the tribes and such out there are, to the point where you can't simply identify insurgents by them possessing assault rifles and the like. Some nations like Finland as well also have a very high level of individual armament.

What makes the US fairly unique is that we're an armed people that ironically has an internal voice calling for disarmament and regulation. This has lead to a situation where you literally have a bunch of victims of their own creation running around alongside people who are heavily armed. The irony of some anti-gun guy getting gunned down or murdered in a home invasion for their own defenselessness is not lost on a lot of people. Some nations that have done better with a fairly well armed population don't generally deal with the issue of a portion of it disarming itself and being public about it, which kind of acts as a sort of "hey we're vulnerable" symbol to the predators who will otherwise avoid the unknowns or those who are quite frank about being armed and having weapons around their house. Like it or not, an up to date NRA sticker can be a better deterrent than one for a home security system, someone breaking into that house probably realizes that if they fuck up the guy living in the NRA house probably has a gun, knows how to use it, and has been prepared for exactly this kind of thing, so if they wake him up and aren't ready they could be looking at
a firefight. In comparison some dude with "Obama 2012" on his car alongside a "Co-exist" sticker and a catchy anti-gun slogan probably isn't armed, so if you can take him down before he gets to a phone, or just put a gun in his face if he wakes up your probably golden. This means we don't exactly reap all of the benefits of having a heavily armed population as far as stability and such. Not to mention our out of control media loves to sensationalize things and air our dirty laundry globally to get viewers, when something bad happens in most countries they try and do damage control and keep it confined if they can, in the US people want to yell it from rooftops. Love it or hate it, in some countries a mass shooting might not be well known outside of the area if the police kept a lid on it well, in the US on the other hand, well... the media holds all the cards for that kind of thing, and generally speaking if they can't get the facts they will make something up and dare people to correct them by ending the information control, and the US is very bad about penalties for that kind of thing.
 

senordesol

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Scrumpmonkey said:
A shotgun is also a justifiable hunting weapon. A handgun is solely designed to be a portable and concealable way to kill people. That's why under UK law handguns are illegal but you can get a shotgun license. Shotguns are also much more likely to be kept in a gun cabinet and therefore not accidentally be picked up by children or the like or left lying around They don't leave the house and are impractical to carry in public.

Personally i don't think the paranoid individualism of the united states is productive or healthy, especially when coupled with a surplus of guns. Just look at crime/ murder rates compared to any other developed nation. Having less guns and gun culture in western Europe makes it a much safer place to live. That is a fact.

I think Hunter S. Thompson put it best; "America... a nation of six hundred million used car salesmen with all the money we need to buy guns and no qualms about killing anybody else in the world who tries to make us uncomfortable. A society of armed masturbators"
Many cities in America instituted Handgun bans only for deaths via handguns to skyrocket (Detroit & D.C.). The reason I point this out is not to argue that handguns aren't easily concealable (they are), but that the issues we face as Americans when it comes to restrictions of firearms extend far beyond what the laws actually say.

Our culture, geography, and demography and resources available are very different than those of Britain or even Canada. Whatever laws are passed are laws that have to be enforced, and in order for those laws to be enforced; you have to be willing to grant the government A LOT of power.