North korea becomes a sane nation?!

[Alandoril]

Is this really the only reply's we have this topic deserves much more discussion,come on people lets start talking!

So, let's talk about problems of a unified Korea!

With the fall of the Berlin Wall the BRD saw a huge wave of immigrants hoping for a better life outside the decade long communist wreckage that was planned economy and central committee administration. Also, let's not forget the damper it put on the new united economy due to the underdeveloped East with still a persisting West-East decline.

If North Korea seriously wants to unify I seriously doubt the South will do it under favourable conditions to them since they would be more or less agreeing to millions of poor and uneducated immigrants and a decade-long economical and political struggle to get the North from a constantly famine-stricken nation that can only support itself just so with mafia methods to a self-supporting part of a unified Korea.
And don't forget that you have millions of people that are second or third generation indoctrinated communists, you're only asking for trouble with those groups if the leader suddenly decides to abandon all the ideals of a "righteous Korea that stands proud against Capitalism".

True it would be difficult, but think of the glory of undertaking and completing such a task!

 

[Quaxar]

Is this really the only reply's we have this topic deserves much more discussion,come on people lets start talking!

So, let's talk about problems of a unified Korea!

With the fall of the Berlin Wall the BRD saw a huge wave of immigrants hoping for a better life outside the decade long communist wreckage that was planned economy and central committee administration. Also, let's not forget the damper it put on the new united economy due to the underdeveloped East with still a persisting West-East decline.

If North Korea seriously wants to unify I seriously doubt the South will do it under favourable conditions to them since they would be more or less agreeing to millions of poor and uneducated immigrants and a decade-long economical and political struggle to get the North from a constantly famine-stricken nation that can only support itself just so with mafia methods to a self-supporting part of a unified Korea.
And don't forget that you have millions of people that are second or third generation indoctrinated communists, you're only asking for trouble with those groups if the leader suddenly decides to abandon all the ideals of a "righteous Korea that stands proud against Capitalism".

OMG OMG I finally get quoted by an escapist celebrity I am so happy ^_^ I'm a fan of your comments but never had the guts to message you! (I'm a lurker).

Now as for your comment while I agree with you I think it would be worth it in the long run and that we have and obligation to help these people for the betterment of mankind. These people are suffering and if we deny them help what does that say about us?

The best way to avoid the problem you mentioned is if all the 1st world countries work together and contribute to aiding north Korea in order to avoid south Korea being swamped, so what do you think?

I'm a celebrity? Well, it's good that you told me, now I can finally make a use of those boxes full of autograph cards!

Sure it would be appropriate to help them but let's not forget the risks. Comparing East Germany to North Korea is only partly useful since East Germany dismantled and unified before the fall of the Soviet Union so they always had at least some kind of support from Moscow, North Korea on the other hand is since then more or less alone, the only support they get is a care package from China from time to time and even the Chinese are tired of crazy North Korea, they just want to keep the immigrants out of their country. So North Korea only gets by with performing weapons tests, then calling up Japan or the South and saying "Woops, almost hit you, sorry. By the way, how about food?".
In comparison, East Germany was tame and they had the StaSi make a secret scent database for known anti-communists. Not to forget that listening to West radio and TV was more or less tolerated since everyone did it, I believe Korea still has harsh punishments for that.

I'm not familiar enough with South Korea's economy but I believe that big international aids would be quite helpful at least (although I believe South Korea has one of the biggest economies in Asia), getting East Germany's infrastructure and lifestyle from communist 60s style up to a 90s level was tremendous work that far exeeded the costs anticipated plus the unified economy kind of ruined the Ostmark and left many wealthy communists (irony much?) pretty broke.
The DDR had the advantage of being one part of a huge communist East Europe, North Korea's everything is even worse since they have had not much help in the last 20 years since their whole system was completely reliant on USSR and Chinese aids.
Their GDP is now a ridiculous 20 times lower than the South's, making them one of the poorest nations in Asia, their power production has since 1990 fallen by about a quarter to a level that's now below their 1970s and apparently 57% of the population generally lacks food. Although these are approximations by other nations so it could even be higher.
In 2009 they tried revaluing their currency which effectively wiped out all of their inhabitants' savings, leading to a 96% US dollar exchange rate drop. And their main source of international trade money is the garment industry through Chinese firms - you know that you're at the bottom when China outsources work to you because you are cheaper.
And that's not even mentioning 60 years of communist propaganda, a leadership fearing loss of their power and privileges, a history of abductions, forgery, espionage and other untrustworthy activities and a border that's, I think, the biggest land mine collection in the world.

 

[knight steel]

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Major snip of awesome sauce

0_0 ARRRR the wall of text is attacking me somebody help I'm...drowning..........(silence)
Now back to business i guess it just a matter of does the befits out-way the risk of such an attempt, we know ruffly what the risk's are if we did help which are all completely valid an important to look at (I'm glad you brought them up).

In comparison the risks for not helping are quite small so we probably would be in our best interest to keep away however while that might be the best logical answer,morally it would not sit right with me, as how can we as (insert whatever nation you want) expect other to help us in our time of need if we do not extend our hand out first.

In the end though it really comes down to how much North Korea are genuine about this and how far they are willing to go, as well as the types of leaders the various countries have in power at the moment. In short I can understand if we don't help but I would be disappointed none the less .

PS:Could I have an autograph

 

[Lhianon]

-snip-
So, let's talk about problems of a unified Korea!

With the fall of the Berlin Wall the BRD saw a huge wave of immigrants hoping for a better life outside the decade long communist wreckage that was planned economy and central committee administration. Also, let's not forget the damper it put on the new united economy due to the underdeveloped East with still a persisting West-East decline.
-snip-

while you clearly know more about korea than me, i feel you kinda only heard half of the story of the german reunification, which makes your comparison a seemingly logical and obvious, but actually rather bad one.

1. eastern germany actually was able to feed its own populace without beeing dependant on other nations (they still had to import a lot of other stuff, but they were not on the brink of starvation like NK is now)

2. the NVA was not a military in the classic sense, they were just a huge amount of well trained german soldiers which were commanded by russian officers, substracting the unstable element of a clique of generals fearing for their power, which is a distinction one has to make when comparing NK and the DDR.

3. the economy of the DDR wasn't as bad as some media sources try to tell you (3rd person plural), yes, a lot of the companies were not able to successfully compete in a free market, the thing is, those that were able to compete were ruined by the "Treuhand", for instance the Berliner Bank bought its eastern pendant for a tenth of its value in secured assets, inheriting all demands of depts the later held as sugar couting.
the politicians at the time knew of this shady business, back in '91 a law was passed that exempted the managing directors of the "Treuhand" from legal repercusions for any financial crimes done as representatives of the "Treuhand".
also, changing the exchange value from 1 DM : 4 Ost-Mark to 1 : 1 over night broke the back of many companies since a large amount of the exports that not went into other socialist countrys went to west germany and austria.

4. the DDR were not stuck in the 60s like you sugest in your second post,for instance the worlds first FCKW-free refrigerator was build by an east-german company, the patent to this was (along with the company) misappropriated by, again, the "Treuhand"

5. many of the so called "depts" east-german companys supposedly had actually were just a kink of the VEB-system; if a company made any profits it had to give thoose profits to the KoKo which then was mostly given back to the companys for R&D and reinvestment, however, in actuallity those sums almost never switched from one bank acount to an other, it was mostly writing down some numbers on papers so the KoKo could show the Politbüro some fancy graphics, as you do if you want to calm down your supervisors. however, the "Treuhand" took those numbers at face value, essentialy inventing depts out of nowhere which partially even today drag down the finances of the BRD.

6. investors from west germany, the netherlands, switzerland, austria and so forth were actively hindered if they genuinly wanted to build a new company in eastern germany by using a legislation that only gave the reserved kickstarter-money for this to people hailing from the ex-DDR.

if you are more interested in this subject, i suggest you watch "Frontal 21: Raubzug Ost", you will find it either in the mediathek of the ZDF or on the tube of your preference

OT:
i really hope he is genuine about this, however, i can not ignore the underlying sugestion in his speech that there is only one Korea and the south is just a rebellious province, combined with the recent flexing of military muscle i fear he thinks he is smarter than the rest of the world leaders and tries some kind of weird xanatos gambit.
IMHO, this can go either way, depending on how China and the USA react to this. we have to consider that for him personally there is almost nothing to gain from a unification with SK as the stronger partner, on the contrary, he and his advisors and generals must fear that they get draged to Den Hag if they ever get into the reach of western law enforcement, if not for the deeds they done themself, then as a replacement for the old cadres that started the korean war (which, one has to keep in mind, never ended, they only agreed to an armistice).
he obviously knows that they have to do something to keep NK from collapsing under the burden of starvation, but i doubt he would sacrifice his current power and status just to appear as the good guy, remember, his brother got disinherited of his place in line of succession for just expressing pro western ideas.

 

[Quaxar]

Major snip of awesome sauce

0_0 ARRRR the wall of text is attacking me somebody help I'm...drowning..........(silence)
Now back to business i guess it just a matter of does the befits out-way the risk of such an attempt, we know ruffly what the risk's are if we did help which are all completely valid an important to look at (I'm glad you brought them up).

In comparison the risks for not helping are quite small so we probably would be in our best interest to keep away however while that might be the best logical answer,morally it would not sit right with me, as how can we as (insert whatever nation you want) expect other to help us in our time of need if we do not extend our hand out first.

In the end though it really comes down to how much North Korea are genuine about this and how far they are willing to go, as well as the types of leaders the various countries have in power at the moment. In short I can understand if we don't help but I would be disappointed none the less .

PS:Could I have an autograph

Yeah, I... kind of underused the enter key there. Possibly.

Morally, helping an underdeveloped country would be the right way. On the other hand if you had a neighbour who over the last 50 years you had a war with, kidnapped your kids several times, plays with grenades in his garden and sneaks to your fridge while you're out you wouldn't necessarily want to tear down the dividing wall and move in with him.

An autograph? From me?
That's boring. Why not instead have a video of three John Barrowmans in shiny pants dancing to Beyonce?
<youtube=FEr0BPOfVw4>

-snip-
So, let's talk about problems of a unified Korea!

With the fall of the Berlin Wall the BRD saw a huge wave of immigrants hoping for a better life outside the decade long communist wreckage that was planned economy and central committee administration. Also, let's not forget the damper it put on the new united economy due to the underdeveloped East with still a persisting West-East decline.
-snip-

while you clearly know more about korea than me, i feel you kinda only heard half of the story of the german reunification, which makes your comparison a seemingly logical and obvious, but actually rather bad one.
I see you're German. No wonder you know more about it, contrary to our history classes in Austria you actually go beyond WWII. If I'm interested in these topics I have to watch documentaries or comedy films.

1. eastern germany actually was able to feed its own populace without beeing dependant on other nations (they still had to import a lot of other stuff, but they were not on the brink of starvation like NK is now)

2. the NVA was not a military in the classic sense, they were just a huge amount of well trained german soldiers which were commanded by russian officers, substracting the unstable element of a clique of generals fearing for their power, which is a distinction one has to make when comparing NK and the DDR.
Did I say the DDR was unable to support itself? I'm sorry if it read that way, not what I meant. But they had more or less the entire Eastern Bloc for trading, support and technological exchange while Korea only had a rather one-sided relationship with the USSR plus a China that for most of the time was in a developmental dependence with the Soviets as well and with rising westernisation has grown distant of the crazy little neighbour.
Yes, the DDR was able to support itself in more than just basic needs and the unification still put a damper on the German economy. Just another thing to ponder about before trying the same thing with a nation that can't even manage to feed two thirds of its population properly.

I think the NVA was an exellent concept for both parties. While it greatly diminished military opposition to the DDR's split from communism it also ensured Soviet control of the national defense and in a case of war against the USSR's interests withdrawal of tactical personnel could influence the DDR's external affairs.
Another thing they had for them was that the NVA never had huge amounts of weaponry pointed at vital enemy locations at all times.

4. the DDR were not stuck in the 60s like you sugest in your second post,for instance the worlds first CFCchanged from the German "FCKW" so English-speakers can understand it better-free refrigerator was build by an east-german company, the patent to this was (along with the company) misappropriated by, again, the "Treuhand"
I might have used a bit of hyperbole there. I didn't intend to say that the whole communist sector didn't make any improvements for 40 years but still there was a definite difference in many sectors.


i really hope he is genuine about this, however, i can not ignore the underlying sugestion in his speech that there is only one Korea and the south is just a rebellious province, combined with the recent flexing of military muscle i fear he thinks he is smarter than the rest of the world leaders and tries some kind of weird xanatos gambit.
IMHO, this can go either way, depending on how China and the USA react to this. we have to consider that for him personally there is almost nothing to gain from a unification with SK as the stronger partner, on the contrary, he and his advisors and generals must fear that they get draged to Den Hag if they ever get into the reach of western law enforcement, if not for the deeds they done themself, then as a replacement for the old cadres that started the korean war (which, one has to keep in mind, never ended, they only agreed to an armistice).
he obviously knows that they have to do something to keep NK from collapsing under the burden of starvation, but i doubt he would sacrifice his current power and status just to appear as the good guy, remember, his brother got disinherited of his place in line of succession for just expressing pro western ideas.

I agree, I don't believe that anytime soon they will be reunited by anything less than an invasion and forceful annexation.
<youtube=tHrw-MFXDnU>
Note how at 0:30 he mentions the need of a strong economy for the communist nation.

But it might be possible that under that new management the two Koreas could finally agree enough to sign a peace treaty, something they have actually never done since the Korea War started.

 

[bullet_sandw1ch]

Hopefully this will improve their current situation, and not just fuel a warmachine.

Then again, with the solar flares inc in 2013, North Korea will be a super power due to not having electric stuff everywhere.

please tell me more of these solar flares , or if you'd rather, you could link me to where i could read about them. i didnt know that there were impending solar flares.

http://www.examiner.com/article/solar-flares-predicted-to-raise-havoc-2013-scientist-have-new-warning-tool

Or any other site with information. Scary stuff indeed!

so if this happens, electronics could basically fry, become unusable, and we'd enter a dark period with little to no electronics ? (forgive my stupidity, i know little of solar flares and their effects.)