Noticed a Problem with Storytelling.

[Austin Howe]

Anyone besides me notice that most games that have a really interesting way of telling their story tend not to have a good enough story for it? Now, this is not to say there stories are bad, not usually, it's just that the stories themselves are "meh" enough where it's a tragedy this new way of telling the story didn't get a better work out.

I ask, because it's a pesky problem that's turned up in more than a few titles, Half-Life and Metroid: Prime being pretty noticeable examples, but I decide to bring it up now because I have an icky feeling this is where Bastion might be going.

Meanwhile, it seems like most of the games with really great stories seem to be the ones that also have the most conventional forms of storytelling. Golden-age JRPGs, Metal Gear (please let's not argue about that one), Legacy of Kain . . . very few games that have interesting, worthwhile storylines besides Team Ico games seem to be told in an interesting way that makes it unique to gaming.

Thoughts?

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

I'm guessing it has to do somewhat with how developers allocate their resources. If they're really experimenting with the mechanics of how they're telling their story they spend less time faffing about with the actual story, instead making it as straight forward as possible so that they can spend their attention and resources on the shiny new things that are going to get their game noticed.

 

[Racecarlock]

Anyone besides me notice that most games that have a really interesting way of telling their story tend not to have a good enough story for it?

I think 99% of this forum does actually. People are complaining about game storytelling all the time on here. And with good reason too. They want LOTR, Charles Dickens, and Douglas Adams quality narratives, but so far all they've gotten are at childeren's book and "Grim and gritty" comic book levels. There are some good stories out there, but I do agree that they need to take the writing up a notch. I know toy story as a movie and as a franchise made lots of great references to other franchises as well as brought up adult themes in a good manner while still staying comedic and friendly to children.

By the way folks, Joss Whedon wrote Toy Story. Just thought I'd throw that out.

 

[Vault101]

I don't think there was anything wrong with half life 2's story

EDIT: personally I find the RPG approach to story telling is the best (Mass effect, Fallout NV) its like several doorstoppers worth of story

like walking around and talking to my crew in ME in-between missions, thats somthing you don;t get into a movie

 

[Kahunaburger]

Aren't Half-Life, Metroid: Prime, and Bastion considered games with good stories, though? I'm pretty okay with minimal, well-told stories being a thing in games.

 

[repeating integers]

Well that's OK, because in the end storytelling is pretty much all that matters IMO.

 

[chimeracreator]

I can't comment on Metroid as I never played it, but Half-Life told an effective story which wasn't amazing but it worked. You are a physicist who is insanely good at killing things while not dying. You get to prove this point while going through a series of events that prove Murphy's Law and then get recruited by an alien entity with unknown powers who uses you as his pawn. The world it's set in is fairly interesting and the game does a good job of showing just how much of an anomaly you are.

Bastion is an example of a brilliantly written short story. It's a very tight story with an understandable cast and a solid philosophical underpinning. The world that it builds resonates with me far more deeply than any JRPG and most any western RPG because of just how relatable it is. Likewise the characters are given enough blank space for the player to project their understanding of the world onto the archtypes they represent.

I am sort of curious, what do you think makes a storyline worthwhile? For me a storyline is worthwhile if it holds the audience's attention while moving through a series of events. These can be as mundane as making a cup of coffee after you wake up to saving the world by killing the evil overlord.

 

[AndrewF022]

I think games will always have a problem with the way they structure their narratives, simply because the player is a factor and gameplay is involved. Unless you're going to go completely linear and control the pace effectively, and load your game with non-interactive cutscenes, I don't think you'll ever see the kind of quality you might be looking for, or find in a film or literary text, because they're far more structured than games are. Doesn't mean the stories themselves can't be interesting though, although I wouldn't consider any JRPGs (especially not the 'golden years' ones) to be good examples of it haha.

Also as for Half Life, I personally don't find its story to be good, at all. However, besides being a great game for what it does well, I consider it to be one of the best examples of pacing ever seen in a game, I just wish there was less scenes where you are locked in a room with Alyx in HL2, worst parts of the game, HL1 did it a lot better I thought. Anyway, just my thoughts on the subject.

 

[Vern5]

I think games will always have a problem with the way they structure their narratives, simply because the player is a factor and gameplay is involved.

Completely This.

In a world of carefully constructive narrative (i.e any game with a story) there is a creature that cannot help but defy, redesign or destroy that narrative by nature of its existence. That creature is the player, a common x-factor whose freedom of will and usual ignorance of the game's plot as a whole can handily ruin the game's story.

You might find that many games with well-told stories wrest control from the player as often as possible, which is sort of counterproductive when you consider that the one advantage games have over all other forms of media is the distinct quality of user-product interaction. Still, in order to tell the story the writers want, they have to sort of build that narrative around the player. This is why cutscenes never go out of style. A cutscene gives plot exposition while completely wresting control from the player, which is perfect if you are a writer of ambition but not if you are a player who just wants to play the damn game.

Aahh... Balancing Story and Gameplay... That is a truly impossible task.

 

[chimeracreator]

Aahh... Balancing Story and Gameplay... That is a truly impossible task.

I disagree, the two can be balanced, but doing so requires that the writer make a story that fits the mechanics of the game correctly. In theory The Sims 3 is a perfect example of game play through storytelling. The story in the Sims 3 is about the life of a given Sim or group of Sims as they grow old and what legacy they leave behind for any children they may have. The player's choices fill in all of the details and the mechanics perfectly support this narrative as sims age and will eventually die unless you bring more sims into your household or have children.

Now that is a fairly extremely example as it involves an extremely generic story (heck all of us are living it now), but it is a story. As a writer seeks to fill in the details themselves then player choice suffers, but that does not mean that you can't use game mechanics to ensure that this choice is made while the story is told. Look at Deus Ex Human Revolutions dialog battles to see just how well something often relegated to a cut scene can be transformed into a fascinating game play element that far exceeds most boss fights, and certainly surpassed the boss fights in Human Revolution.

 

[Vern5]

Aahh... Balancing Story and Gameplay... That is a truly impossible task.

I disagree, the two can be balanced, but doing so requires that the writer make a story that fits the mechanics of the game correctly. In theory The Sims 3 is a perfect example of game play through storytelling. The story in the Sims 3 is about the life of a given Sim or group of Sims as they grow old and what legacy they leave behind for any children they may have. The player's choices fill in all of the details and the mechanics perfectly support this narrative as sims age and will eventually die unless you bring more sims into your household or have children.

Now that is a fairly extremely example as it involves an extremely generic story (heck all of us are living it now), but it is a story. As a writer seeks to fill in the details themselves then player choice suffers, but that does not mean that you can't use game mechanics to ensure that this choice is made while the story is told. Look at Deus Ex Human Revolutions dialog battles to see just how well something often relegated to a cut scene can be transformed into a fascinating game play element that far exceeds most boss fights, and certainly surpassed the boss fights in Human Revolution.

Well, technically balancing story and gameplay is possible. I guess what I was trying to get at is that the majority of gamers can never agree on what balance is acceptable. For example, Bioware games are considered more story-focused than gameplay-focused and that turns a lot of players away from the company. The basic point is that you can't please everybody with any amount of balance.

 

[chimeracreator]

The basic point is that you can't please everybody with any amount of balance.

Very true, but you can never please everybody no matter what medium you work with. What matters most is creating a story / game that your audience likes rather than assuming that everyone will be your audience.

 

[The Funslinger]

I don't think there was anything wrong with half life 2's story

EDIT: personally I find the RPG approach to story telling is the best (Mass effect, Fallout NV) its like several doorstoppers worth of story

like walking around and talking to my crew in ME in-between missions, thats somthing you don;t get into a movie

I fully agree with this.

Half Life has an incredible story, it's just that it doesn't throw exposition at you. The signs and odds and ends are there for you to find. Which I think is a very interesting and unique method of story telling.

 

[Vault101]

I don't think there was anything wrong with half life 2's story

EDIT: personally I find the RPG approach to story telling is the best (Mass effect, Fallout NV) its like several doorstoppers worth of story

like walking around and talking to my crew in ME in-between missions, thats somthing you don;t get into a movie

I fully agree with this.

Half Life has an incredible story, it's just that it doesn't throw exposition at you. The signs and odds and ends are there for you to find. Which I think is a very interesting and unique method of story telling.

see if Half life was your standard FPS...if it looked like a standard FPS, if Gordon freeman was some solder then it would such

but Half lifes strength shines through in this world it has created and (most importantly) its striking visual design, which still looks good (source engine is one sexy beast)

its hard to explain but theres just somthing special about it

 

[The Funslinger]

I don't think there was anything wrong with half life 2's story

EDIT: personally I find the RPG approach to story telling is the best (Mass effect, Fallout NV) its like several doorstoppers worth of story

like walking around and talking to my crew in ME in-between missions, thats somthing you don;t get into a movie

I fully agree with this.

Half Life has an incredible story, it's just that it doesn't throw exposition at you. The signs and odds and ends are there for you to find. Which I think is a very interesting and unique method of story telling.

see if Half life was your standard FPS...if it looked like a standard FPS, if Gordon freeman was some solder then it would such

but Half lifes strength shines through in this world it has created and (most importantly) its striking visual design, which still looks good (source engine is one sexy beast)

its hard to explain but theres just somthing special about it

Agreed. The Source Engine kicks all kinds of ass.

 

[Thespian]

The best example of good storytelling in a game coupled with an actually good story, is Bastion. Bastion has a really gripping narrative that doesn't get in the way of fun, explodey gameplay.

 

[Naeras]

Aren't Half-Life, Metroid: Prime, and Bastion considered games with good stories, though? I'm pretty okay with minimal, well-told stories being a thing in games.

Outside the characters and the storytelling methodology, I thought Half-Life's story was kinda meh. Metroid: Prime had a good story, though, and Bastion was amazing.

 

[Starik20X6]

I recently had something of an epiphany on this subject.

First part came from Yahtzee's review of Diablo 3, where he mentioned that the random level generation can really ruin the flow of a game. I'm going to take it a little further and suggest that the general structure of a game isn't really suited to traditional storytelling. See, by giving the player the freedom to do what they like, actions begin to loose all weight. "Oh no! The town is under attack! Get over there and fend them off!" "Yeah sure, right after I do these side quests and craft some new items I'll be right with you." It kills a lot of the 'urgent fate of the world quest' idea when I can faff about for hours on end and the villain will kindly wait for me before they go to the next phase of their evil plan.

Second part came while reading an article on Cracked about how the stars of various sic-fi films sometimes take a back seat to the worlds they are set in. And it got me thinking- the best games (story wise) are the ones that are focused in their world and the player's interaction with and exploration of it. For example- I would say the story of BioShock is held up so high, not because of what happens in the story, but because most of the story is about the world itself. How this crazy place came to be. Exploring and learning about this completely alien place is fascinating.

To put it simply, a narrative requires certain pacing and structure to be effective, and you can't guarantee you'll get that when you hand the story progression to a player. Hence, for a game narrative to work, it has to be somehow separated from the pacing. The best way to do this is to have an interesting world to explore. To use perhaps the epitome of this idea, I'm putting forward Mario. Everyone knows the Mario story, it's a timeless tale. And it works, and has worked for more than 25 years now, because the 'narrative' isn't what works. Instead, what absolutely does work about Mario is the fascinating universe it presents. Exploring these new worlds, experiencing the impossible- when you think about it, the Mushroom Kingdom is the real star of the Mario story.


This is probably rambling and not sense making, because it's past midnight and I'm really tired.