nuclear power

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Kiesel

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Aug 22, 2008
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powering a hydro plant would require a reservoir... turning a linear canal into a giant V shaped lake with a dam spanning the wide end. kind of hard to grow crops in a lake.

and saddly, even if we start today switching our baseline power generation capacity from coal to the only other available non-polluting sources of baseline power such as hydro, nuclear, and geothermal. Global warming will continue to progress for a time anyway since it will take many years to affect the transfer, and thats not even considering cars which hopefully will have been switched over to carbon-neutral ethanol and biodiesel hybrids.
This means that sea levels will continue to rise, and make your salinity problem even worse.

it is an interesting plan though. and hell even if it doesnt work you could always plant fruit trees as replacement crops as a backup.
 

WolfSchwarzMond

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Aug 8, 2008
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Go Nuclear. The French and Japanese both have been generating a large portion of their power using Nuc Plants, and they have never had a dangerous incident. The US Navy has been running nuclear plants for over 50 YEARS and NEVER had a problem. Chenybol and I know I spelled it wrong was a TOTAL Case of human error they Intentioaly shut down safety systems. And IF were were stupid enough to launch it into the sun, the effect on that Nuclear Reactor which is after all what a star is would be NONE. Finally all the worrys about 3 Mile Islands incident were crap. You get more Radiation living Downwind of a Coal Fired Power Plant then was released from 3 Mile Islandd.
 

Altorin

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May 16, 2008
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SilentHunter7 post=18.69274.654640 said:
absinthe21 post=18.69274.654637 said:
"I like nuclear power except for we have several of the same reactors used in Chernobyl O_O"

There wasn't actually a hardware problem with Chernobyl. The meltdown was caused by workers there pushing the limits of the security system to see how far it could go without breaking.
I'd say mission accomplished :)

Actually, there were design flaws, like how the SCRAM process actually boosted the reaction for a few seconds before stopping it, and using a coolant that had to stay hot to keep liquid.
it's probably been said already, but I just have to.. I really can't not.


more like... fission accomplished!

and truthfully, the biggest problem with nuclear power is that all of our current reactors that we're basing our opinions on are 30 years old at the youngest and are complete piles of junk, noone looks at those and says that's a good idea, but that's all people think about.
 

wilsonscrazybed

thinking about your ugly face
Dec 16, 2007
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toastmaster2k8 post=18.69274.654737 said:
dont say throwe it in to the sun
because if you get radio active matreal in to the sun. sun rays become nuclear and when you get sun tans you will mutate or die or both
You seriously need a spell-checker.
 

Sayvara

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Oct 11, 2007
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gim73 said:
Of course, this risk applies only to the people who WORK at the plants. The public at large recieves no extra dose by having a nuclear reactor in their community.
Actually the plants are often so tightly regulated when it comes to filtering out particles from the air that the radioactivity inside the plant is lower than the natural background radiation outside.

To anecdote: the first sign of trouble to the world when the Chernobyl reactor #4 went up in a big cloud of steam was an alert at the Swedish nuclear powerplant Forsmark. An engineer tripped the radiactivity alert when his shoes showed unusually high levels of radiation. They backtracked his steps, and not until they got outside did they realize the source was not that Forsmark was damaged, because the inside was clean. It was the outside that was contaminated by the dust from Ukraine.

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9604/26/chernobyl/230pm/index2.html

gim73 said:
Another plan is to use russian nuclear bombs to fuel american nuclear reactors. Haven't heard anybody talk about this yet on the forum.
Megatonnes to Megawatts.
http://www.usec.com/megatonstomegawatts.htm

Kiesel said:
the ONLY western nuclear reactor to harm members of the public was an experimental british military design in 1957 where the FLAMMABLE graphite core was cooled by blowing AIR through it and then straight into the country side with only a filter keeping the toxic chemicals in. Not suprisingly it lit on fire and then burned down.
You're talking about Windscale. They were built hastilly to prouce plutonium. And no, it didn't "burn down". The containment building held up. The core burned but not like you'd imagine with huge flames and the likes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windscale_fire

Actually graphite isn't that flammabe. It's bloody hard to get a graphite fire going. Remember for instance that the thermal protection tiles on the space shuttle on the hottest part are made of graphite. Here you can watch how a friend of mine tries to get a piece of reactor grade graphite to burn using a 1500 C flame: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22aTqTKRPBI

Kiesel said:
the WORST reactor malfunction was ACTUALLY at Three mile island. The operators accidentally did just about everything wrong that they could have. The whole reactor melted into a radioactive boiling puddle.
No need to go hyperbole here. Parts of the reactor melted... not "the whole reactor". But you are correct: the reactor tank wasn't compromised and apart from a deliberate release of mostly radioactive noble gases, nothing got out of the containment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Mile_Island_accident

Kiesel said:
just so you people know... Chernobyl, the only power generating reactor to ever explode... was brand new, and run by the cream of the russian nuclear engineers and technicians.
They followed all their instructions and guidlines to the letter... and it still blew up.
This is wrong on so many levels.

First of all: no it was not at all run by "the cream of the russian nuclear engineers and technicians". The night crew that did the experiment were not very highly trained at all. Originally the experiment was to have taken place during the day but because another powerplant in Ukraine had to be taken off the grid, they requested that Chernobyl #4 stayed online until the evening. And so the day crew that was better trained was relieved by the night crew; and they came mostly from coal plants. The boss at the time had done a correspondense course in how to run a nuclear reactor.

You are also forgetting that becoming the "cream of the crop" in the Soviet Union had very little to do with actual achievments in the field of expertiese. In the Soviet Union the way to rise to the top was, crudely put, to stick your nose as far up the Party's arse as you could.

That claim the reactor was "new" is a vague claim. It was freshly built, yes, but with very poor old technology. Graphite moderated boiler reactors are inherently unsafe and this was known. They chose this design because it was cheaper and because it allowed the production of plutonium.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RBMK

And finally the claim that they did things by the book. They did not. Because of their inexperience and lack of knowledge of how the reactor worked, they broke several safety regulations and went way off the scale when it comes to how they were allowed to run the reactor.

Keisel said:
after that they had just enough time to hit the panic button to warn the outside world before they died
Ok, this is just silly. The control room was in no way damaged in the steam explosion. They didn't even know the reactor building had collapsed until they were told. Several people working at the reactor actually survived.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwEIX4KU7r8

All in all Kiesel, Chernobyl was not just a matter of poor technology being employed. The training and procedures employed were abysmal. Not to mention the fact that they were used within a system of government where the most important aspect was not to keep up safety but to maintain the glory of the Party at all cost.


Typecast said:
For instance: no one can predict what is going to happen 75,000 years from now. That's how long it takes for some of the nastier radioactive waste to decay.
Yes we can... we can predict what will happen in 1 500 000 000 years from now with nuclear waste buried in deep gelogical repositories. Read my post: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/18.69274.655508

/S
 

Altorin

Jack of No Trades
May 16, 2008
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I do love the guy that said not to throw it into the sun because it would shut the suns reactor down

that was great, I don't know if it's true or not, but it was totally awesome

the real reason not to just launch our nuclear waste into space, is that our rockets are even more out of shape then our nuclear reactors..

and if one of those badboys were to explode in the upper atmosphere carrying a payload of hazardous waste.. well..

that'd be interesting :p

edit: just because it's relevant

Nuclear Blast, from Fallout Brotherhood of Steel

A lonely electron, with nothing to do
Pairs up with a neutron, for a cocktail or two
Atomic kisses, enjoyed by a few
They had a... nuclear blast..

Said the electron to the neutron, You sure can be dense
With this much attraction, There's no civil defense
Let go of that energy, no need to be tense
Give me that.. nuclear blast..

Einstein said that space is elastic
Twist his theory, it comes out bombastic
A mushroom cloud, a sight fantastic
Stick your head between your legs and kiss your ass goodbye..

A happy electron, a neutron its mate
They don't give a damn about apocalyptic fate
They party until midnight, then boom it's too late
They had a.. nuclear blast..
 

WolfSchwarzMond

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Aug 8, 2008
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Ahh but we can build NEW plants based on more modern tech and the newer Convection Flow systems that don't Require Pumps to maintain coolant flow, so even if there are problems with the pumps, the coolant continues to flow through the system.
As to the Waste, Yucca Mountain will shortly be ready if we can stop with the CONSTANT Law suits. While it is NOT the PERFECT storage location, it is without a Doubt the best that we as Human beings can design and Build. It is without a doubt much better then the current locations near major population centers and current nuclear reactors.
 

Altorin

Jack of No Trades
May 16, 2008
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^ prize

that's what I'm saying, all the complaints about the safety of nuclear power is based off machines that are technological dinosaurs, and even so, they were fairly safe. Chernobyl was basically a freak accident because the Russians didn't know what they were messing around with basically, other then that, there was Three Mile Island.. which never actually caused any documented deaths.

and that's WITH the old dinosaur machines.
 

.J.a.T.

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Aug 20, 2008
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Ah... Hm. I am not sure should I say "yes" or "no".

I have some "bad" experiences with the nukes. Russia blew one up just in the borders and some waste came to Finland. Gee, that wasn't too nice.

But in the other hand, if the plant stays intact, it doesn't pollute all that much ('cept the waste.) and it does give ppl lots of electricity, and my comp runs with electricity...

I'm gonna say, "yes" for nukes. They already made them anyway.
 

RYjet911

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May 11, 2008
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I think I've heard either a tenth or a fifth of the USA's energy comes from nuclear power. So make five to ten as many new nuclear power plants, and the USA is powered completely with clean, safe and cheap energy.

Oh wait, sorry, environmentalists don't want "dirty, unsafe and expensive" energy producing methods because they're afraid that some how all their tree-wives will get contaminated some how, and because all nuclear power generators will go down the Chernobyl route, despite the fact that happened in the 70s in Russia when and where nuclear power wasn't safe. However in the states, there hasn't been an accident great enough to consider banning more power plants from being built.

Building newer ones would be safer too, since then you can take down all the older ones built around outdated technology, further reducing the already low risk nuclear power plants have anyway.
 

howard_hughes

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Aug 14, 2008
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RYjet911 post=18.69274.658074 said:
I think I've heard either a tenth or a fifth of the USA's energy comes from nuclear power. So make five to ten as many new nuclear power plants, and the USA is powered completely with clean, safe and cheap energy.

Oh wait, sorry, environmentalists don't want "dirty, unsafe and expensive" energy producing methods because they're afraid that some how all their tree-wives will get contaminated some how, and because all nuclear power generators will go down the Chernobyl route, despite the fact that happened in the 70s in Russia when and where nuclear power wasn't safe. However in the states, there hasn't been an accident great enough to consider banning more power plants from being built.

Building newer ones would be safer too, since then you can take down all the older ones built around outdated technology, further reducing the already low risk nuclear power plants have anyway.
The U.S. needs new everything for the most part: power plants, oil refineries, infrastructure, etc. We're being regulated out of every market because of too many misinformed action leagues, we're getting to be like the U.K. in regards to steam engines circa 18XX. :(
 

Limasol

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Feb 8, 2008
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Let's have a seat at Homer Simpson's control panel, chow down on some donuts, and nap away into oblivion while blinking lights and buzzers warn of impending doom and that glowing green bar of uranium that fell into our trousers. Today we're going to examine the popular notions about nuclear power. Specifically, if xenophobia had not killed nuclear power in the United States in the late 1970's, there's a good chance that we'd have all been driving electric cars for the past 20 years; and uncounted billions of tons of carbon dioxide would never been sucked out of the ground, burned in power plants, and exhausted into our atmosphere.

So let's state the obvious. The immediate reaction to that statement is "OK, that may be true, but look at all the new problems we'd have created with Chernobyl-type disasters and lethal nuclear waste." Fair enough, and important questions, to be sure. Let's start with a quick primer on the various types of nuclear reactors.

So-called Generation I reactors were the early prototypes developed by many nations, and actually placed into production in a few cases. Generation I reactors were characterized by fundamentally unsafe designs, and kludged layers of afterthought safety systems. When most nuclear nations began deploying commercial reactors, they were usually of Generation II design. Generation II reactors were significantly improved, but these changes were primarily evolutionary. Most of the commercial plants in operation in the United States are Generation II designs. A little over ten years ago, Generation III designs began appearing in some of the world's most advanced nuclear nations. Generation III reactors incorporate not only evolutionary improvements, but also revolutionary changes such as fuel cycles that result in much less nuclear waste; reduced capacity for the creation of weapons-grade plutonium; and passive safety designs wherein the reaction cannot be sustained in the event of a problem and the system effectively shuts itself down, by virtue of its basic design. The newest plants being designed for commercial use are called Generation III+, which incorporate all the newest knowledge from operating Generation III designs. If a new reactor was approved and built in the United States today, it would be a Generation III+ design. Even if every plant employee keeled over with a heart attack, neither a Chernobyl nor a Three Mile Island type accident would be possible; the systems are fundamentally redesigned so that the reaction cannot be sustained if things go outside the parameters.

The Idaho National Laboratory is the United States' primary advanced reactor research facility, and they've outlined six new reactor types to be developed for Generation IV. The designs take everything to a new level: Lower cost, safer designs, near-total elimination of nuclear waste, and reduced risk of nuclear weapons proliferation. There are also Generation V reactors in the ether, but these are primarily the domain of late-night rumination sessions at the lab, fueled by tequila and pot.

Then there's fusion power, which is everyone's ultimate goal. Fusion reactors have the profound advantages of using simple tritium or deuterium for fuel, producing no significant waste, and absolute safety since if anything goes even slightly off-kilter, the plasma disappears and you have no reaction. It's the ultimate in cheap, clean, safe, renewable energy, despite gross misunderstandings of the technology expressed by Greenpeace and other factions. The first operational tokamak fusion reactor for research is being built by the international ITER consortium in France and is expected to come online in 2016.

So you can probably guess that Three Mile Island was probably not the newest and safest design, and you'd be right. It was a Generation II design. It was the first and only significant nuclear accident in American history. A broken valve caused coolant to leak into a containment facility designed for that purpose, raising the temperature of the core and causing a partial meltdown. Despite significant confusion on the part of the operators (this being their first experience with an accident), and a somewhat lengthy chain of errors and misunderstandings, everything eventually worked out just as it should. There were no deaths or injuries, and despite 25,000 people living within five miles of the plant, nobody was exposed to any radiation worse than a single chest x-ray. All the studies predict zero cases of future cancer, despite ongoing lawsuits that the courts continue to find to be without merit. With proper perspective, Three Mile Island can (and should) be characterized as a shining example of how well the safety systems work, even in the face of human error and old-fashioned reactor design.

But that's not the way it was perceived. By an unfortunate coincidence, Jane Fonda's movie The China Syndrome about a nuclear accident came out only twelve days before Three Mile Island. The Cold War with Brezhnev was in full force and the words "nuclear accident" were simply too much for a scientifically uninformed public. Three Mile Island became the first nail in the coffin of American nuclear power.

Seven years later in 1986, things got much worse. Chernobyl was suffering from inadequate funding. Much basic maintenance had never been performed. It had only a skeleton crew, nearly all of whom were untrained workers from the local coal mine. The only manager with nuclear plant experience had been a worker installing small reactors on board Soviet submarines. Some genius decided to run a risky test of a type that no experienced nuclear engineer would ever gamble on. The test was to shut down the water pumps, which must run constantly in that type of reactor; and then find out whether the turbines, spinning on their momentum alone, had enough energy to restart and run the pumps during the forty-second delay before the backup diesel generators would kick in. The test was so risky that one faction within the plant deliberately disconnected some backup systems, trying to make the test too dangerous to attempt. The test was run anyway. It didn't work, the pumps couldn't keep up, the graphite core caught fire, the coal miners couldn't find any shovels so they didn't know what to do, and the reactor exploded. If you think I'm exaggerating this, there are extensive resources both online and in print, if you really want the hairy truth. In this short space I'm probably not even giving you ten percent of what a travesty this was ? I'm tempted to call it a joke but it's so not funny. For example, they scheduled this right in the middle of a shift change, and the new workers coming in didn't even know what was going on.

Two people died that day, and some 30 to 60 people were dead within three months. Predictions of eventual cancer deaths caused by the radiation run from 1,000 to 4,000. And, of course, the damage to the local environment is extensive and difficult to estimate. The terror of a radiation cloud blowing across Europe was the second nail in the coffin of American nuclear power.

Not only was Chernobyl a monumental failure of the human element, the plant was a Generation I design, specifically an RBMK reactor, which is generally regarded as the least safe reactor type ever built. One design flaw is that the core used combustible graphite, and this distinction is the main reason that Chernobyl-type disasters are not possible in most reactors around the world. Only a very few Generation I designs are still in use, all in the former Soviet Union, and all have been retrofitted with improvements intended to prevent this type of accident. Other nations have long been lobbying for the closure of these reactors, and rightfully so.

How do the dangers of nuclear energy compare to the dangers of fossil fuel energy? A report in the Journal of the American Medical Association found that some 50,000-100,000 Americans die each year from lung cancer caused by particulate air pollution, the biggest cause of which is coal-burning power plants in the midwest and east. Even taking the maximum predicted death toll from Chernobyl, we would need a Chernobyl-sized accident every three weeks to make nuclear power as deadly as coal and oil already is. Shall I repeat that? If the world was filled with Generation I reactors run by feuding coal miners, we would need a worst-case scenario every three weeks just to match the US death toll we've imposed upon ourselves by clinging to our current fossil fuel system. Next time you see a hippie cheering the defeat of nuclear power in the US, realize that a healthy environment and saving lives are clearly not their priorities.

Well, maybe to them it's more about the future of the planet than about saving lives today. Maybe they just don't want to see high-level nuclear waste created that's going to poison the planet for tens of thousands of years. I can see that. But here's the problem with that logic: The plants we're designing now produce less waste than ever. Some on the drawing board produce none at all. We've already created most of the waste that we ever will. It already exists. It's out there. Lobbying against future cleaner plants won't make the existing waste go away. It's out there now in temporary facilities in neighborhoods all across the country, way more vulnerable than it would be in proper permanent storage in Yucca Mountain.

Opponents say that Yucca Mountain is geologically unstable or otherwise too hazardous, so the waste might leak out. Well, trust me: The location of the Yucca Mountain site was one of the most lengthy and expensive decisions the government ever made. What do you think they were doing with all that time and money, picking their noses? Well, it was a government program, so a large part of the time and budget probably was spent on nose mining. Nevertheless, this was one of the most scrutinized decisions ever made. Environmentally speaking it's as good a site as we could hope for. If you're concerned about it, go to a neutral and reliable source and research it personally. From every scrap of reason I can muster, environmentalists should be Yucca Mountain's #1 fans. I can't imagine why they prefer to leave the waste out where it is now, unless they are driven more by ideology than by science. Who would have thought that?

There is a safe and clean solution to our energy crisis, gasoline prices, and global warming. It's the latest generation nuclear reactor.
 

Sayvara

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WolfSchwarzMond post=18.69274.658046 said:
Ahh but we can build NEW plants based on more modern tech and the newer Convection Flow systems that don't Require Pumps to maintain coolant flow, so even if there are problems with the pumps, the coolant continues to flow through the system.
As to the Waste, Yucca Mountain will shortly be ready if we can stop with the CONSTANT Law suits. While it is NOT the PERFECT storage location, it is without a Doubt the best that we as Human beings can design and Build. It is without a doubt much better then the current locations near major population centers and current nuclear reactors.
You could put a nuclear waste storage plant 500 meters under Washington D.C. and you wouldn't even notice a shiver on the radiation detection instruments apart from the usual ticks from natural background radiation.

Here is how deep geological repository storage works according to the Swedish KBS-3 method:

1) First you vitrify the waste. In short what this means is that you turn the material into a kind of glass. The reason for this is because you know that glass doesn't react with pretty much anything. Water doesn't disolve glass. Even most acids will not even make a dent in glass. It's what is called chemically inert.

2) Second, you encase the waste in iron.

3) Thirdly, the Iron capsules are encased in a large canister of copper. Copper as you all know is very good a resisting things such as water.

4) And finally, the whole canister is put at least 500 meters under ground, in the rock, with a thick layer of bentonite clay around it. The reason one uses bentonite clay is because of three things things: firstly, all the dangerous substances from nuclear waste bind very well to bentonite. If the capsule against all conceiveable probability is compromised, the iron casing is ruptured and the glass somehow manages to become disolved... the waste sticks to the bentonite (and rock too by the way). Second, bentonite has the property that is swells if water comes into contact with it. It swells to a pressure up to 50 atmospheres. This means that water cannot penetrate it. And thirdly, as it swells it fills and seals any cracks very effectively.

5) When the site is full, it is sealed off and the tunnels filled. The only way any of that material stuck down that can get to the surface, is if someone deliberately drills down into the ground again and picks the damned things up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitrification
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KBS-3

/S
 

gim73

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Jul 17, 2008
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Limasol... absolutely awesome.

As for the poem about neutrons and electrons, well, that's pretty much nonsense. Neutrons get together with protons, or they run free until they find more protons. There is no electrical connection between electrons and neutrons.

Airborne contamination is when particles of radioactive material get stuck in dust/water vapor or something that will float on the air. Contamination is just radioactive material that is on a surface. Radiation is when energy or particles is released from an unstable nucleus. So why am I defining these terms? Alot of people don't understand the differences between these things. Yes, filtration systems can keep any airborne down to a minimum. People who work at a power plant are concerned about their radiation exposure. Having shielding installed will minimize radiation exposure, but rad workers will still get some exposure during day to day operation and maintenance.
 

Alex_P

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Mar 27, 2008
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Limasol post=18.69274.658104 said:
[Three Mile Island] was the first and only significant nuclear accident in American history.
I think the meltdown of SL-1, a small experimental reactor, is also notable, since it is the only fatal incident in America. It happened 18 years before the Three Mile Island accident. Three people (all of then military personnel operating the reactor) were killed during the event.

-- Alex
 

Razzle Bathbone

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Sep 12, 2007
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I'd really love to believe that these magically perfect new nuclear techs will save us from having to take any responsibility for anything. It's like Santa Claus coming to give free, nonpolluting energy to all the good little boys and girls. Who wouldn't want that?

But I get kind of skeptical when I remember that the profits from these megaprojects will all end up going to the usual multinational corporate arms dealers. Do you think they might possibly be presenting a slightly rosier picture of their Star Trek power generators than is warranted? Naw, they wouldn't lie to us, would they? Megacorporations don't lie! What are you, some kind of dirty hippie? Why do you hate America?

I'd really love to believe in Santa Claus. But I'm not sure it's a good idea to put too much faith in it.
 

Kiesel

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Aug 22, 2008
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thank you limasol for repeating everything I said in a much more elequent and accurate fasion. Exellent summary of the situation.

And sayvara... don't be so nitpicky, I was being dramatic about TMI just to emphasis how bad it was and still nothing happened. The british REACTOR did burn down, even though the containment building did not. and pumping large amounts of air over graphite that is several hundred degrees is the definition of how to light it on fire, they should have known better.

and the fact is... that chernobyl WAS brand new, including the design. and the operators WERE the cream of the soviet crop. And they WERE following their instruction manual to the letter.

The soviets chose the design based on very poor judgment due to its ability to double as plutonium production reactor... (and not all graphite moderated reactors are so dangerous, just look at the pebble bed design where the graphite is one of the key safety measures.)

because it was the flagship of its new reactor line, the party appointed its "best" based on political merit not technical merit. (the cream of a different crop than you were thinking)

And the instruction manual clearly stated that in the case of an emergency the turbines would continue spinning untill the backup generators could power them. the operators took their word for it and designed an elaborate but ROUTINE test of the system. They were expecting everything to go just like they had been told it would work. but because the book was also writen by unqualified political apointees, it was just as useless as the rest of them.



also one of the benefits of storing waste horizontally in a mountainside such as yucca, is that you can get it back out later if you find a use for it. and considering that many of the newer reactor designs can use reprocessed spent waste, the only reason that we are even chucking it out at all is because its cheaper to mine more fuel than it is to reprocess the used fuel. If we ever run short on other fuel sources, we could always just open the tunnel back up and reprocess the old fuel. if you vitrify it and then bury it down a shaft half a klick down, its a bit harder to get it back out.

and these magical "new" nuclear techs have actually been around for 30 years. and OTHER countries have been using them just fine. Only america with our large population of technology fearing luddites is lagging behind.
I blame jane fonda, stupid ignorant traitorous *****. (and anyone like her)
 

LewsTherin

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Jun 22, 2008
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Its a good idea when used correctly, as most are, but bad things happen when it screws up.

Nukes and such.