Obama administration: "Piracy is flat, unadulterated theft"

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Reverend Del

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Whilst we all sit here and demand that piracy is not theft, Average Joe is wandering around thinking "gee them pirates are low down dirty thieves." Why? Because the Government told him it was so. We're not average Joe, we're gamers and geeks and folks who like to get technical about such details. Mr. Obama is talking to folks who don't give a rat's ass about the difference between theft and copyright infringement, all they care about is the Government dealing with the folks who make their music and games cost more (fully believing the prices will come down when the pirates are all spending intimate moments with men named Molly). The Mob (read: public) is stupid in crowds (this thread may be a case in point), never underestimate the power of a single line from a politician.
 

Blimey

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In other news: Rape is bad.

Thanks for the update on something the worlds known for a long time.

On a note, what does Obama do? Besides make press-releases that so obviously suck the dicks of big CEO's, I don't really notice him doing much. I could be off though, its hard to see from Canada.
 

Ewyx

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MPAA and RIAA both heavily backed up Obama during his campaign... go figure.

Do you REALLY think Obama gives a shit about the VG industry when he talks about 'piracy'? If you believe that, you need to get your head re-examined.

MPAA and RIAA need to die anyway, so the whole copyright mess can be sorted out with a new legislature that actually makes sense, not one where the bands can still get royalties for the next 80 years. Not to mention, it'll stop retarded situations like The Rolling Stones suing The Verve... Oh no, they used a sample, big fucking woop. There were bigger bands (Led Zep comes to mind), that pretty much ripped off whole songs. The Verve however had to give everything they made back to TRS.

*rageeeeee* I hope piracy spreads so that each and every industry that relies on copyright laws dies. Then maybe we'll finally get to see some evolution, once the sole motivation is not insane profits.
 

Amyler

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Poor logic is poor.

AndyFromMonday said:
Fine, let's go down this road again.

Let's say my neighbor has an orchad and sells apples for a living. I buy an apple from him and use the seeds from that apple to grow my own orchad. I then start distributing apples for free. Is what I'm doing illegal?
This is a terrible metaphor for piracy. In the example you have given, someone pays for the original items, then - and this is important, dammit - uses it to create new and different products. Yes, they are still apples. However, they are apples that you have spent your time growing, making and distributing. They are not the same, however similar, as the apples deom your neighbours tree.

Piracy takes the original item; be it game, movie or music; and distributes it. For free. The item that the creator has made. A metaphor for that is not about growing new apples, but taking his apple tree, planting it in your own yard, and then giving them away for free. If you are confronted over it, you simply shout "These apples are now my property and I'll do with them as I like!" There are laws against piracy because it is taking away other peoples property. Beyond the distribution side of things, it starts off with a theft.
 

Dastardly

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AndyFromMonday said:
See, your problem with this line of thinking is very simple and easy to point out:

You are basing your definition of "theft" solely on its effect on the victim--namely, whether or not that person is "deprived of property." This creates a needlessly limited and self-serving definition, forcing a false dichotomy.

Now, certainly, some crimes have PORTIONS of their definitions that are based on what happened to the victim--take, for instance, "murder" versus "attempted murder," being based on whether or not the victim died. (The penalties for both crimes, however, are very, very similar. Why? Because there is just no reason to give someone a lesser sentence simply because he happens to be a BAD murderer, or because the victim got lucky.)

But additionally, there are components in the definition of every crime that depend on the act that the PERPETRATOR committed, regardless of the result. "Premeditated murder" is thus differentiated from the classic "crime of passion," not based on what happened to the victim, but based on how the murderer went about his or her business.

So, in this case, you're leaving out half of the definition. Here are both halves, presented separately so you can see the contrast:

1) Victim-centric definition: Stealing is an act that deprives another person of his/her property.

2) Offender-centric definition: Stealing is an act by which a person receives property that belongs to someone else, without first securing permission.

Now, the definition of "property" has a long-established history in the Western world of including INTELLECTUAL property. So, we're not going to get into that one. It's already on the books.

Continuing on, it takes BOTH of these definitions to clearly define the TYPE of stealing being done. But both of them are stealing. How does piracy fit in?

a) Piracy results in you, the pirate, having a fully-functional copy of the game (the "property" in question) without due compensation to any of the people involved in the creation of the game. This is already stealing, regardless of whether or not the victim is "losing" anything directly. (aka: Stealing a little bit from a really rich guy is still stealing.)

b) Piracy results in additional copies of the game being created and made widely available, diluting the potential market for the game, and thus the opportunity for its creators to see a return on investment. When people see there is a "free version" of a game, it is reasonable to believe a number of them will choose it over the "$60 version." It is further reasonable to believe a number of those people WOULD have paid for the game (either now, or at a reduced price later) had this free version not been available. This is the "loss of potential sales" part of things. (aka: Counterfeiting money or items is also a type of stealing.)

c) You are receiving the benefit of goods and services without payment, thus increasing the financial strain on the legal customers who want to see further products from this company--the company sees a reduced return, and must either decrease quality or increase price to account for this financially. These "savings" get passed on to the customers willing to pay for the game. (aka: Illegal immigrants who use government services are stealing from everyone who pays taxes.)
 

Dastardly

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Additionally, to everyone that says "It's not stealing, it's copyright infringement."

Fine. Explain for the class why, exactly, is copyright infringement illegal in the first place?

(Answers may include: "Because it represents the theft of INTELLECTUAL property," or "Because it deprives a person of his/her rightful due for creating the IP," or "Because it allows someone to profit from a product that is not theirs, and was thus obtained illegally from someone else.")

That's right, ladies and gents: Copyright infringement was made illegal because it IS A FORM OF STEALING. And rather than just add it to the old laws, they went ahead and added a new one. Why is the penalty sometimes stiffer?

Same reason the charge is more if you get caught with a LOT of drugs. It's one thing to be in possession of a small amount (still illegal, though). If you're found with a bunch, they nail you with "intent to distribute." The law flags you as part of the CONTINUING problem, and thus subject to a larger penalty than the simple end-user of the drug. When you pirate something, especially over the internet, you are making yourself part of the piracy distribution chain (called "seeding"). That's not just taking the product, but demonstrating intent to distribute.
 

Outlaw Torn

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So what are his thoughts on used game sales? That is pretty much stealing from the developers and publishers too as Penny Arcade (and doubtless many others) pointed out.
 

KarmicToast

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Anyone who thinks piracy is not a crime is someone who wants to try and morally justify what they are doing wrong. Here are the facts. It takes a ton of people, a ton of money, a ton of time, and a ton of organization to make nearly every game you play. Just because the product can be offered virtually does not mean the value of said product is zero. Most would agree that stealing a car is wrong, right? It's the same concept, the only difference being that its not easy to steal a car. Just because a product is virtual, such as music, movies, or games, DOES NOT mean that it is legally or morally up for grabs. And if I can't change your mind about the philosophy, at least think about this: if the entire world stopped paying for games then guess what Sherlock, NO ONE WOULD MAKE THEM ANYMORE and everyone would be SOL. Do you feel like just because you found out what bit-torrent is that you're one of the lucky few who gets a free media habit that everyone else has to subsidize? Of course Obama said this. I don't care if he is a Republican, Democrat, or Independent, his statement is simply true.
 

Agema

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Piracy is generally bad.

If people can't make a living making games, music, and so on, they won't. Same with drugs and several other things - no-one would make new ones if anyone could copy them and undercut the developer because they didn't pay any R&D. These indy devs estimated piracy at 85-95% when they didn't put on protection: http://machinarium.net/blog/2010/08/05/machinarium-pirate-amnesty/ Piracy will probably also partly explain why PC gaming has declined, because the profit margins dropped so much.

Too many people pirate, everyone gets less shiny new stuff.
 

Keava

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You just know laws reach new levels of absurd when stealing a physical copy of the game from shop will maybe get you a talk with police officer while downloading a single song from internet will get you fined for over 1 million.
If that's what governments want to achieve then be my guest, just don't go around crying that shoplifting rate has increased later on. Not to mention the fact that if they ever really manage to tame the beast called internet the pirated copies will just be sold on the street corner like they used to be before broadband. No one will be able to monitor that just like they can't catch all drug dealers either.

Want to fight piracy? Stop ripping off customers, provide proper service, stop producing shovelware and give people incentives to buy original products.
 

JuryNelson

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AndyFromMonday said:
JuryNelson said:
AndyFromMonday said:
I just lost respect for this administration.
Seriously? Well, I just lost respect for you.
You won't even ask why I lost my respect for the administration? Oh well, I'll just tell you anyway.

Piracy is not theft, period. To state that it's theft shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what piracy is and giving that it's coming from an administration that's pushing an act to give copyright holders the ability to more aggressively pursue pirates it's just unforgivable.
What is piracy, then?
 

Ironic Pirate

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AndyFromMonday said:
AgentNein said:
AndyFromMonday said:
I just lost respect for this administration.
Cuz it's such a stretch to consider piracy theft? I mean, the only people who've fooled themselves into thinking otherwise are pirates and idiots.

Is it different than physical theft? Absolutely. But it's still theft.
HOW many times will I have to EXPLAIN THIS?!

PIRACY does not DEPRIVE the holder of his object. It COPIES IT. There's a fundamental difference between copying and stealing. Piracy is COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT, NOT THEFT! Let me repeat that for you. YOU ARE NOT, I REPEAT, YOU ARE NOT TAKING ANOTHER PERSONS PROPERTY, YOU ARE COPYING IT!

It's not theft, it's not even a form of theft, it's C O P Y R I G H T S - I N F R I N G E M E N T


Piracy is many things, including a form of sharing, but it is NOT THEFT.


SODAssault said:
AndyFromMonday said:
I just lost respect for this administration.
You're really of the opinion that obtaining something for free, when it was only able to be created because somebody sunk a lot of money into it with the intent of having their investment refunded (at the very least) by sales... is in no way a form of theft?

It cost somebody else a lot of money to create what you're pirating. If you obtain it without payment, and without their consent, you're taking money from them without their permission. That's a very basic form of stealing.
Fine, let's go down this road again.

Let's say my neighbor has an orchad and sells apples for a living. I buy an apple from him and use the seeds from that apple to grow my own orchad. I then start distributing apples for free. Is what I'm doing illegal?

TheRightToArmBears said:
It's still taking something without permission. It's kinda half-theft. You get something that's someone else's unlawfully (that's theft right there), but they don't lose it (the not-so-theft bit).
NO YOU'RE NOT! What I an downloading from the internet isn't the game I bought at GameStop, I'm downloading a copy of that game.
My opinion is this with less capital letters.

That said, I don't pirate, because a friend of mine (an idiot, mind you) got a bunch of hardcore gay bondage pornography on his computer, instead of season two of the office when he tried to pirate it. Or he could just have been justifying his massive collection of hardcore gay bondage pornography...
 

Ironic Pirate

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JuryNelson said:
AndyFromMonday said:
JuryNelson said:
AndyFromMonday said:
I just lost respect for this administration.
Seriously? Well, I just lost respect for you.
You won't even ask why I lost my respect for the administration? Oh well, I'll just tell you anyway.

Piracy is not theft, period. To state that it's theft shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what piracy is and giving that it's coming from an administration that's pushing an act to give copyright holders the ability to more aggressively pursue pirates it's just unforgivable.
What is piracy, then?
It's like reading a book at a bookstore without buying it. Well, that's more like video streaming...

Okay, it's like if libraries were on the internet, illegal, and run by a bunch of nerds in Sweden. And they don't have any books.
 

Cynical skeptic

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Agema said:
Piracy is generally bad.

If people can't make a living making games, music, and so on, they won't. Same with drugs and several other things - no-one would make new ones if anyone could copy them and undercut the developer because they didn't pay any R&D. These indy devs estimated piracy at 85-95% when they didn't put on protection: http://machinarium.net/blog/2010/08/05/machinarium-pirate-amnesty/ Piracy will probably also partly explain why PC gaming has declined, because the profit margins dropped so much.

Too many people pirate, everyone gets less shiny new stuff.
Small, independent developers have high piracy rates because the highest amount of profile their games ever get is the fact some group claimed to "crack" it.

So that "85%-95%" are people who otherwise never would've heard of the game and sure as hell never would've bought it.
 

JuryNelson

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Ironic Pirate said:
JuryNelson said:
AndyFromMonday said:
JuryNelson said:
AndyFromMonday said:
I just lost respect for this administration.
Seriously? Well, I just lost respect for you.
You won't even ask why I lost my respect for the administration? Oh well, I'll just tell you anyway.

Piracy is not theft, period. To state that it's theft shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what piracy is and giving that it's coming from an administration that's pushing an act to give copyright holders the ability to more aggressively pursue pirates it's just unforgivable.
What is piracy, then?
It's like reading a book at a bookstore without buying it. Well, that's more like video streaming...

Okay, it's like it libraries were on the internet, illegal, and run by a bunch of nerds in Sweden. And they don't have any books.
I don't think it is. It's more like if libraries were on the internet, illegal, run by a bunch of nerds and contained nothing but books that publishers spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to keep out of libraries.

Or like if you went into a bookstore, read a book, and then tore out all the pages and left the cover.

It's like people who defend piracy as not-theft don't want to admit what you're paying for when you buy a DVD. HINT: It's not the box art.
 

Ch@Z

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Oct 18, 2009
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I'm sorry but just admit it! Piracy is wrong and it is theft.
It's just like how many smokers can't admit smoking is bad for you.