Obesity Discrimination

[Luna]

Its better to not be fat. Fat people who act proud are in denial and need to realize this.


Regardless of me seeing fat people in a slightly negative light compared to not fat people, I certainly wouldn't be disrespectful for no reason. If an obese person started going off about how their thyroids prevented them from exercising and that they were forced to be fat I would probably roll my eyes.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

No, you are very much putting words in my mouth, when you say things like "socially acceptable" weight, when I very much mean a healthy weight.

So I'm "putting words in your mouth" because you don't want to acknowledge what's coming out of it to begin with. Gotcha.

You are trying to make my position one of intolerance, whereas it quite simply isn't, if people are continuing in unhealthy practices then they need help.

How about acknowledging that it's not always about "unhealthy practices," then? Or at very least, acknowledging that trying to lose weight for its own sake is an unhealthy practice in its own right?

I think health issues are very easily morale issues.

I said "moral panic [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_panic]," not "morale."

And now, to skip back a bit:

How is what I said not true? How is a person's own genetic predisposition their own fault? Everyone has their own challenges to work through, and it is good for them to work for those issues, be it genetically low metabolism or some other health issue. It's not their fault that they have an issue, but if they just give up on it then that's their own choice.

You keep swearing up and down that no, you're not suggesting that anyone who's still fat must be doing it wrong. And yet, all of your talk of "giving up" and how no one has to stay fat? There's no other way that can be interpreted. Zip, zero, nada.

On top of that, you keep insisting that even if trying to lose weight for its own sake is unhealthy in its own right (and counter-intuitive, to boot), fat people should keep doing it for the sake of their health. Can't you see how that doesn't follow at all? (And then, there was the part of your post that sounded suspiciously like an implication that fat people deserve to be body-shamed. Not even gonna go there.)

I'll give you this: you seem very determined to recruit us to your cause. Unfortunately, the only thing you're convincing me of is that you've entirely bought the fat-panic party line.

By the way, here's another fun fact for you: Until recently, weight studies focused almost exclusively on middle-class WASPs. Chew on the implications of that for a while.

Its better to not be fat.

"Better" by what standard? Because from a health standpoint, that's a lot more dubious than the mainstream media would have you think.

Fat people who act proud are in denial and need to realize this.

In denial of what? I'm sure anyone who's fat is keenly aware that society holds them in contempt, whether or not they have any (doubtless hard-won) body confidence.

Regardless of me seeing fat people in a slightly negative light compared to not fat people, I certainly wouldn't be disrespectful for no reason.

Your previous paragraph was pretty "disrespectful for no reason." Just sayin'.

If an obese person started going off about how their thyroids prevented them from exercising and that they were forced to be fat I would probably roll my eyes.

If I encountered a walking strawman, I'd be too busy sneezing to roll my eyes.

 

[RafaelNegrus]

snip

Okay, ignoring your inane red herring with an attack on the spelling of one word, let's take a look at this:

What would be the causes of obesity? Well, I can think of three general causes; genetic, behavioral, and environmental. Obesity has a basis in genetics, but then why would the obesity rate be rising using the same measurements and in such a small span of time? Genes don't change that fast, so there must be something else at work here.

Maybe an unhealthy environment is what is causing this, maybe psychological attacks on obese people are causing a rise in the rates. But why is the rate rising so fast even among the extremely young? Media biases are very hard to impose on children too young to even be partaking in that sort of media. So that must not be the entire cause.

Are there other environmental issues? I can think of different things that have changed very much in the past 30 years, namely the rise of computers, the internet, and fast food. I just know from family history that jobs have changed very much over the years, becoming more sedentary.

So maybe what needs to happen is to take the best health practices from these earlier times (even though they never thought of it as such then) and incorporate them into our modern lives. So that would mean eating more like they did and partaking in physical activity like they did.

And you say that fat doesn't necessarily cause health problems. Well that is rather true, as the studies linked by Amarok say. But they also say that obesity is correlated with significant health problems, and as such maybe obesity is just a symptom of something else that causes these medical problems. In which case, solving the health problems would probably also result in weight loss, as the root cause has been addressed.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

You are in no position to accuse me of resorting to "red herrings" when I point out that you've clearly read something wrong. (Spelling, hell: Unless you actually were under the impression that I was talking about morale, your tangent makes no sense.) Especially after accusing me (and more than once, even) of "putting words in your mouth."

And after calling said reply "inane," you're also in no position to complain of being "attacked."

And you say that fat doesn't necessarily cause health problems. Well that is rather true, as the studies linked by Amarok say. But they also say that obesity is correlated with significant health problems, and as such maybe obesity is just a symptom of something else that causes these medical problems. In which case, solving the health problems would probably also result in weight loss, as the root cause has been addressed.

It can be a symptom of an underlying health issue. I was the one who pointed that out in the first place, as a reason why weight loss for its own sake is pointless at best.

You replied that they should try to lose weight anyway [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.375528-Obesity-Discrimination?page=3#14589163].

And those much-vaunted studies? They rarely, if ever, take dieting into account. Guess what else is correlated with the health problems in question?

And that's presuming that the study isn't funded by some company with a vested interest in profiting off people's poor self-esteem.

 

[RafaelNegrus]

snip

If you're not even going to read the articles I'm referencing (namely http://www.nutritionj.com/content/10/1/9 ) and see that most of what it states actually supports your argument, but not to the extent that you've taken it then there's no use even discussing it with you. You're just looking for a fight, and it's not worth my time to just deal with your anger. If you really want to look up pertinent information, then go to this article [http://www.carlmerritt.com/jokes/fatjokes.htm] and read up on that.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

If you're not even going to read the articles I'm referencing (namely http://www.nutritionj.com/content/10/1/9 ) and see that most of what it states actually supports your argument, but not to the extent that you've taken it then there's no use even discussing it with you.

Yes, because I was just taking it to such extremes. People come in different shapes and sizes, and that's not necessarily a health crisis in its own right? Unheard-of!

And actually, I've read that article. Wanna know whose argument it doesn't support at all?

You're just looking for a fight, and it's not worth my time to just deal with your anger.

So...you resorted to insults when cornered, but I'm the one who's supposedly angry here. Whatever makes you feel better about flouncing, I guess.

If you really want to look up pertinent information, then go to this article [http://www.carlmerritt.com/jokes/fatjokes.htm] and read up on that.

Har de har de har har har. How cute.

Not half as funny as the fact that you linked a health-at-every-size article after arguing so vehemently in favor of weight loss for its own sake, though.

 

[R0cklobster]

Event though I'm overweight myself, I think that I probably do just a little, if only subconsciously depending on the circumstances.

 

[RafaelNegrus]

snip

Ooh! Congratulations! You followed a link! Do you want a cookie? Shame you didn't read all of the scholarly article I posted on there, it has some really good stuff, especially with the weight as a correlation with other diseases, like diabetes, and the healthy behaviors underlying a reduction in those unhealthy conditions also have a good chance to reduce weight. Also did you notice all the health problems were compared to people in a normal weight that had those same issues, not whether those issues occurred more in obese people.

And the bulk of my argument this whole time has been about health. When have I ever argued in favor of weight loss for its own sake? Nothing is valuable for its own sake.

Anyways, you use sarcasm and words like flouncing and attack me for attacking you for attacking me? Whatever makes you feel better about being irrational, I guess. However, I feel this discussion has gotten all out of proportion, some people here seem to almost be swelling with anger. We need to just poke a needle in it and deflate the situation.

And of course you putting words in my mouth is a bad thing! I have a very specific number of words that can go in there, and anymore is probably unhealthy for me, though I wouldn't know, cause I'm no doctor and therefore have no actual education about this issue.

Pound for pound though, I find your argument to be a little flabby, and could use a little slimming down. Maybe cut out all the personal investment that you have in it? I did notice that you revised about four times. Were you trying to do this? Because you missed a wide target.

 

[Amarok]

Yesd, other people have mentioned that. BMI is just a measurement of weight to height, not fat content or anything like that. But we aren't talking about people like that as I think we can safely call Olympic athletes outliers.

I do say that tentatively, because that's assuming that they're necessarily doing something about it, as you were saying exercising five days a week, half an hour a day. No one I know exercises that much. That's great is they're living a healthy lifestyle, but I think the obesity rates keep rising specifically because people aren't living one.

"I think the obesity rates keep rising specifically because people aren't living one".

"I think" is never a great opening line against someone who initially came into the fray with a wide sample pool of clinical studies, and who has more on hand.
There are thin, sedentary people who eat poor diets as well. In fact all comprehensive studies on the matter that weren't conducted by the good people at SlimFast have noted that "thin and healthy" "thin and unhealthy" "fat and healthy" "fat and unhealthy" tend to be evenly spread among the populace.

You'd be surprised at how many fat people work out, especially given how much abuse they face at the gym, or just outdoors in general.

If no one you know moves 30 minutes a day 5 times a week I'd be surprised. I'm not talking 30 minutes of intense cardio. This is 30 minutes MODERATE movement, including walking. If anyone you know owns a dog and isn't a terrible owner they've already got that out of the ball park.

Even if your belief that obesity is the cause of many people living unhealthily, and the millions upon millions of thin, unhealthy people are just annoying anomalies getting in the way of your findings and should be ignored (hey, scientists do it, why not you?), what would you suggest, honestly?

Eating well and getting enough exercise (30 mins moderate, 5 times a week) has shown to universally improve health. Whereas all conventional methods for losing weight (ie. eating less, exercising more), have shown to not only not work 95% of the time, but also be rather unhealthy depending on the severity of the diet and the degree to which you're now exercising.
Take it from someone who has run themselves ragged in the past. Eating only 1000 calories a day and burning off 4000 a day makes you feel pretty shit, pretty fast.

That's not even factoring in weight-loss surgeries and diet pills, which in our obesity-hysteric society some doctors are actually recommending. The surgery is just un-necessarily dangerous, has all sorts of complications down the line, and tends to not work.
The most benign diet pills will give you an elevated heart rate and anal leakage for the rest of your life. The worse of the bunch will straight-up kill you.

Whether thin or fat, the only thing you need to be worrying about from a health perspective is, am I eating well, am I moving enough? No single able body needs any more than that.

If you're uncomfortable taking my word for it, consider investing in the works of Dr. Linda Bacon, PhD. That woman knows her stuff.

Edit: Looking above, where you've started posting links to fat jokes, I can see you're probably not worth the effort at this time.

 

[RafaelNegrus]

Yesd, other people have mentioned that. BMI is just a measurement of weight to height, not fat content or anything like that. But we aren't talking about people like that as I think we can safely call Olympic athletes outliers.

I do say that tentatively, because that's assuming that they're necessarily doing something about it, as you were saying exercising five days a week, half an hour a day. No one I know exercises that much. That's great is they're living a healthy lifestyle, but I think the obesity rates keep rising specifically because people aren't living one.

"I think the obesity rates keep rising specifically because people aren't living one".

"I think" is never a great opening line against someone who initially came into the fray with a wide sample pool of clinical studies, and who has more on hand.
There are thin, sedentary people who eat poor diets as well. In fact all comprehensive studies on the matter that weren't conducted by the good people at SlimFast have noted that "thin and healthy" "thin and unhealthy" "fat and healthy" "fat and unhealthy" tend to be evenly spread among the populace.

You'd be surprised at how many fat people work out, especially given how much abuse they face at the gym, or just outdoors in general.

If no one you know moves 30 minutes a day 5 times a week I'd be surprised. I'm not talking 30 minutes of intense cardio. This is 30 minutes MODERATE movement, including walking. If anyone you know owns a dog and isn't a terrible owner they've already got that out of the ball park.

Even if your belief that obesity is the cause of many people living unhealthily, and the millions upon millions of thin, unhealthy people are just annoying anomalies getting in the way of your findings and should be ignored (hey, scientists do it, why not you?), what would you suggest, honestly?

Eating well and getting enough exercise (30 mins moderate, 5 times a week) has shown to universally improve health. Whereas all conventional methods for losing weight (ie. eating less, exercising more), have shown to not only not work 95% of the time, but also be rather unhealthy depending on the severity of the diet and the degree to which you're now exercising.
Take it from someone who has run themselves ragged in the past. Eating only 1000 calories a day and burning off 4000 a day makes you feel pretty shit, pretty fast.

That's not even factoring in weight-loss surgeries and diet pills, which in our obesity-hysteric society some doctors are actually recommending. The surgery is just un-necessarily dangerous, has all sorts of complications down the line, and tends to not work.
The most benign diet pills will give you an elevated heart rate and anal leakage for the rest of your life. The worse of the bunch will straight-up kill you.

Whether thin or fat, the only thing you need to be worrying about from a health perspective is, am I eating well, am I moving enough? No single able body needs any more than that.

If you're uncomfortable taking my word for it, consider investing in the works of Dr. Linda Bacon, PhD. That woman knows her stuff.

See, I read what you say and the studies that you link, and those make sense, but then the question arises in my mind of why the obesity rate is rising, and so incredibly rapidly.

I think one thing that we need to look at are the terms we are using, because I think we're using them in different ways. When I say diet, I mean eating heathily, not necessarily starving yourself to death like you seem to. Which is the popular perception of these things, but "diet" technically just has a meaning of the food that one eats. I'm not advocating people starving themselves for long periods of time, but most of us could easily stand to eat better, myself included.

I know also from personal experience that I was at my healthiest when I was running cross country, and eating possibly nearly triple what I currently eat. MY body took in quite a bit of energy and used it all up, and whenever I ate something that was too unhealthy it made me want to die the next time that I ran.

I am a little unsure at the notion of exercise being something as simple as moving around. From my experience I said above and all of my interactions with doctors I definitely got the impression that something a little heavier was needed. Not much heavier, but something like dancing or judo counts, and those are not overly strenuous (except when judo becomes wrestling).

But I can very much see that you're a serious guy with a serious point and I think we generally agree, but that we have differing estimates on the healthy habits that the general population takes. So, take for example the HAES standard of eating naturally. I know personally that there have been many times when I've eaten and not been hungry, and very many times when I've overeaten at meals, and that is ignoring my body's signs that it's full. I would bet that there are many other people who do the same (probably while procrastinating on work like me).

But with obesity rates skyrocketing, this isn't just the natural turn of events. There is something behind this (that sounds way more conspiratorial than I want it to sound)and that should be addressed for those that it's not a healthy state for.

 

[Amarok]

Snip

At the very least can it be agreed that making sure everyone has access to the foods they want, and access to safe movement options is a better way forward than nurturing a culture of fear, stigma and shame?


As for your other ponderings, I'd suggest looking at Tom Naughton, and his film Fathead. It comes from a far more cool, clinical perspective, but also debunks the totally erroneous "obese=automatically unhealthy" idea. He's got some ideas on what causes fat, but make sure to bear in mind that fat isn't automatically ill health, and that stigmatising and shaming -- and linking to comprehensive lists of fat jokes as an academic counter-argument -- is just an all-round stupid idea.

 

[RafaelNegrus]

Snip

At the very least can it be agreed that making sure everyone has access to the foods they want, and access to safe movement options is a better way forward than nurturing a culture of fear, stigma and shame?


As for your other ponderings, I'd suggest looking at Tom Naughton, and his film Fathead. It comes from a far more cool, clinical perspective, but also debunks the totally erroneous "obese=automatically unhealthy" idea. He's got some ideas on what causes fat, but make sure to bear in mind that fat isn't automatically ill health, and that stigmatising and shaming -- and linking to comprehensive lists of fat jokes as an academic counter-argument -- is just an all-round stupid idea.

As I've stated before, I'm not opposed to a tax on unhealthy food (which could possibly be used to fund a subsidy on healthy food, although food subsidies are a sticky issue in this country) as I really do think that would help everyone, and yeah judo classes for everybody would be great.

I did have a couple of interesting thoughts as I was reading some things on this. Many people on here have been claiming that a significant part of weight problems comes from the psychological problems of social shaming, but I was looking at this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_acceptance_movement and saw that it dated to the late 60s early 70s and then this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_United_States#Anti-obesity_efforts which shows that the obesity rate in adults has tripled since then. I tend to think that weakens the argument that it's social stigma, as if stigma has been the same then why would obesity levels go up? And if it varies, why wouldn't the obesity rate vary a little more rather than just rising?

However, everything that I've looked at to date, even the paper written by Dr. Bacon http://www.nutritionj.com/content/10/1/9 has stated that obesity is correlated with multiple health issues, and they just mainly argue causation. Even if it's a symptom of something that is more of an issue, a large spread of a symptom is still something to be worried about.

 

[Amarok]

Snip

Look at the stuff by Tom Naughton to see why taxing food is seven different shades of stupid (to whit: fast food doesn't cause obesity (!!!!!) and middle class, higher-income families eat more fast food than the poor, so you wouldn't be discouraging much either way)

If you use wikipedia and claim it to be a reliable source you will get slapped out of college faster than you could imagine. I'd argue that stigma has gotten a LOT worse since the 60's. Just look what's on TV and in magazines, and note that eating disorders in children under 12 have increased by 112% in the last 10 years.

Linda Bacon has consistently argued against focusing on weight and weight-loss, so it's a shame to see you've decided to go against her conclusions.

 

[RafaelNegrus]

Snip

Look at the stuff by Tom Naughton to see why taxing food is seven different shades of stupid (to whit: fast food doesn't cause obesity (!!!!!) and middle class, higher-income families eat more fast food than the poor, so you wouldn't be discouraging much either way)

If you use wikipedia and claim it to be a reliable source you will get slapped out of college faster than you could imagine. I'd argue that stigma has gotten a LOT worse since the 60's. Just look what's on TV and in magazines, and note that eating disorders in children under 12 have increased by 112% in the last 10 years.

Linda Bacon has consistently argued against focusing on weight and weight-loss, so it's a shame to see you've decided to go against her conclusions.

This isn't college, and wikipedia is great as a starting source to get a handle on the material (currently working on an international relations masters degree, and you'll notice I only really used wikipedia for a couple of numbers, which I very much trust it with.)

And to quote from the article I linked "While many short-term weight loss intervention studies do indicate improvements in health measures, because the weight loss is always accompanied by a change in behavior, it is not known whether or to what extent the improvements can be attributed to the weight loss itself." "In most studies on type 2 diabetes, the improvement in glycemic control is seen within days, before significant weight or fat is lost." "These data suggest that the behavior change as opposed to the weight loss itself may play a greater role in health improvement."

Her position is not one that weight loss is a bad thing, but that healthy behaviors which may very well result in weight loss are good even when not necessarily accompanied by weight loss. At least that's how I read it.

EDIT: And a tax on unhealthy food would be good even if it doesn't reduce obesity, as it just inclines more people to make smart decisions. And yes, I think it would affect the decisions of people in the middle class too. No one likes paying extra money (look at Mitt Romney, he doesn't need more money and he doesn't like taxes, but that is a VERY different issue I don't want to get into).

 

[Amarok]

Snip

Well I've been saying from the start that healthy behaviours - again, eating well, 30 minutes of moderate movement 5 days a week - are all that's needed to mitigate all risk of diseases associated with bad diet and poor exercise.

What I've been saying is that the same healthy options should be laid bare for everyone. That the obese should not be told by doctors/friends/family/people on the street to lose weight because it has a 95% failure rate and is shown to have adverse affects on health, and because stigma and shame have negative affects on mental health which manifest themselves physically.
And if you don't think the obese are stigmatised or shamed, I invite you to sit through a single ad break. Particularly during summer, winter, or new years'.

Obese people, like ideal weight people, should all be encouraged towards healthy living. No muss, no fuss. If they lose weight, whatever. If they don't, whatever.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

Discrimination can be based on any possible difference between people. It is a waste of time focusing on just one issue when the whole should be taken into focus. I greatly fear people who only promote tolerance on what gets them personally discriminated against. Because these are the type of people who generally will open up to their own hate afterwards and attack other groups. While I do not know these two women personally or have delved too much into their other views, I would hope that they would target all discrimination the same but they are certainly going about it the wrong if they are only willing to discuss those that happen to fit them.

Why would you automatically jump to that conclusion? Sure, they kind of mumbled, but I didn't hear anything to indicate that they didn't care about any other biases.

 

[mrhappy1489]

I honestly do not care what anyone says, fat people while causing multiple problems for our society (especially Australia and the US), they shouldn't be discriminated against. As much as I hate the amount of money spent upgrading facilities to accommodate fat people, I think discrimination is a step backwards in terms of where the world is going. While this is a self imposed problem and I do not feel sympathy for these people, I don't think going out and abusing them is really the right idea. OT, I do think that a large percentage of people are discriminant against fatty's, but in saying that I can understand where they come from, but would rather they didn't.

So you agree that you can still discriminate against something that isn't absolutely innate or concrete about you (which I agree with by the way)? I totally understand where you're coming from and I don't understand how people simply say that the problem being self inflicted makes it okay to abuse people. It's like saying that I accidentally cut my hand off because I got distracted and it's okay to mock and verbally harass me for it because I wasn't paying attention. Or like how people say it isn't discrimination regarding religion because you can pick it. Yeah it isn't like it's a heavily culture based belief system that influences many aspects of your life, if people hassle you for it just change it! I know I'm kind of stretching and obesity can be countered with simple willpower and education but many people simply don't have that. This is met with "you're not motivated, that's your problem get motivated" but it isn't like you can just get willpower or motivation out of thin air, that's a whole new problem all together. For many people "excuses" is actually is actually a vicious cycle that they need support, not stigma to break.

Whatever I'm rambling.

I am glad that I'm not the only person open enough to say this. It does seem strange in my opinion that people seem to be willing to jump so easily to another boat of abuse and hatred, while justifying it with really flimsy arguments. Like you said, it might be self inflicted, but it isn't a justification to go out accusing them of being Mrs. Hitler. Though as an amendment to my previous comment, I find it trying not abusing the idiots that go around sulking about being fat and how they hate it. Whether you lack the willpower or not doesn't mean you can ***** about your problems as if they weren't self inflicted.

But now I too, am rambling.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

[snip]

Try to dodge around it all you like, but you criticized them (to put it politely) for making a video on a specific topic, and for remaining on that topic. You then made groundless implications about their motives.

And...guess what? Immediately resorting to personal attacks doesn't change what you did. Neither does backpedaling. If anything, they suggest that you know full well that you're in an indefensible position.

 

[RafaelNegrus]

Snip

Well I've been saying from the start that healthy behaviours - again, eating well, 30 minutes of moderate movement 5 days a week - are all that's needed to mitigate all risk of diseases associated with bad diet and poor exercise.

What I've been saying is that the same healthy options should be laid bare for everyone. That the obese should not be told by doctors/friends/family/people on the street to lose weight because it has a 95% failure rate and is shown to have adverse affects on health, and because stigma and shame have negative affects on mental health which manifest themselves physically.
And if you don't think the obese are stigmatised or shamed, I invite you to sit through a single ad break. Particularly during summer, winter, or new years'.

Obese people, like ideal weight people, should all be encouraged towards healthy living. No muss, no fuss. If they lose weight, whatever. If they don't, whatever.

And I've never been to a doctor's appointment of any kind and not been encouraged to be more healthy (except maybe the eye doctor).

 

[RafaelNegrus]

[snip]

Try to dodge around it all you like, but you criticized them (to put it politely) for making a video on a specific topic, and for remaining on that topic. You then made groundless implications about their motives.

And...guess what? Immediately resorting to personal attacks doesn't change what you did. Neither does backpedaling. If anything, they suggest that you know full well that you're in an indefensible position.

No, he did say that he didn't know their motives, but in general he's leery of people like that because they typically only care about notions of equality that would help them.

While I do not know these two women personally or have delved too much into their other views, I would hope that they would target all discrimination the same but they are certainly going about it the wrong if they are only willing to discuss those that happen to fit them.

Yes, it's a video on one topic, and for all I know they may have other videos that are angrily against the stigma of being homosexual or that sort of thing. I do think historically we can look and see that typically the most ardent attackers of discrimination are those that are in the group being discriminated against. Most famous feminists are women, most black rights leaders are black, etc.