JUMBO PALACE said:
JoJo said:
Statistically, violent crime is at an all-time low in the Western world. For example, it's estimated medieval England percentage wise had 10 to 100 times more deaths by violence than the United Kingdom in the 21st century. Men have certainly become less violent over time, or 'pussified' as you put it, and that's absolutely a good thing in my opinion. What exactly would be the benefits to society of what you propose?
I never said I wanted anyone to die, nor did I say violence necessarily begets manliness. What I said was, that the modern male is a shadow of his former self. Male traits are no longer valued. Traditional male traits and activities, such as lifting weights, hunting, arguments, chivalry, body hair, etc. are looked down on as either intimidating or psychotic.
Do I want people bludgeoning each other in the streets? No. I just think it would be better if we applauded a kid who stood up to his bully instead of shamed and punished him. No one is taught to stick up for themselves, only turn the other cheek and be disrespected.
SanguiniusMagnificum said:
JUMBO PALACE said:
Agreed. First world societies have turned the modern mail into a posturing, preening, pussified version of what they once were. "Men" nowadays are supposed to be perfectly behaved little darlings who never fight or roughhouse. If more guys spent some time in the gym and away from their computer screens I think they'd be better off. If someone provokes you, or relentlessly mocks you, then they deserve to get hit. Maybe they should learn a little respect instead of me having to exercise restraint when they obviously aren't.
Well then, Oh Great Masculine Icon of Masculinity, may I ask you why you just took your time to write this in front of your little computer screen instead of spending more time at the gym or "roughhousing" like a real "mail" does?
I don't mean any disrespect, I assure you! I just hope that I'm not one of those people that deserves to get hit by your magnificent fists drenched in pure masculine manliness!!!!
Saying you don't mean any disrespect doesn't change the amount of sarcasm you used to address my post.
Anyway, it's cute that you noticed I had to type this on a computer. Congratulations. If you really must know, I lost almost 100 pounds and I lift 5 days a week. I saw this thread after returning from the gym, as shoulders are the last muscle group in my weekly rotation.
My point is, not everyone has to be into lifting, cars, hiking, and rock climbing like I do, but I think it's wrong to devalue male traits and activities as undesirable or unduly aggressive. Kids like to wrestle and play dodge-ball. Sometimes they get hurt. It happens. When some poor high school kid is getting pulled relentlessly and he finally stands up for himself, that should be applauded, not condemned. That's victim blaming.
All right mate, sorry for the sarcasm, I just couldn't resist.
Now back to the matter at hand. I understand that not all stereotypically male traits are bad. There's nothing wrong with a little bit of hunting (as long as it's done legally and within reason) , nothing wrong with getting into arguments or standing your ground (exactly what these kind of forums are made for) and nothing wrong with having body hair. That's understandable.
(Excuse me for this little history intermezzio and I'm sorry to disappoint, but chivalry never really "existed". It was an idealistic and romanticised code of conduct that was never actually used by knights. Remember, knights were just trained soldiers from the nobility, nothing more. They raped, they pillaged, they burned, just like the common levied peasant did. Most of them didn't know shit about poetry, dancing, playing the lute or treating their women or enemies in a respectful way).
There's also nothing wrong with children (and the emphasis on children) solving their problems with physical violence. When I was a kid, I also got into fights, sometimes for no reason at all. When I got bullied, I resorted to punching and kicking the living shit out of them. Let's just say that I had a pretty short fuse regarding physical and psychological violence directed at me or my friends.
Now, when I turned approx. 15 I joined a jiu-jitsu dojo and believe me, that really helped me change my perspective on violence in general. I was taught some seriously painful techniques that could hurt, incapacitate and maim but I was also taught that they should be used as a last resort only, not just something that you use to solve all of your problems. I was taught that violence could be a good thing, a great outlet for all your anger or stress, but only if it was between two people that shared a mutual respect for each other and fought in a sportsmanlike manner.
Learning to deal with your problems without getting angry or resorting to violence is an essential part of the transition from child to adult. Now, as a child, it's OK to hit a bully who's been constantly insulting or jerking you around but it's the responsibility of the parents or the teachers to tell him: "Look, there are better ways to deal with people that try to torment you without resorting to punching them in the nose".
So, let's recap.
Punching a bully that hurls physical or/and psychological attacks at you: OK, but not applaudable like you said.
Punching someone just to "put them in their place" or "teach them some respect": Not OK, especially if you're an adult. There are dozens of things that you can do in such a situation that doesn't get you into a fight.
Blaming the victim (again, a kid) for standing up to a bully and resorting to physical violence: Again, not OK. But he should be taught about the repercussions of his actions and to learn how to deal with that kind of problems. It's the bully that should be punished.
I hope that this post made my position on this matter clear without resorting to sarcasm or any sort of hyperbole.
