On Exploration
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
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I love exploring in games. Travelling to places completely out of my way, just to see what was there.
I remember on SoTC I'd just ride around for hours at a time, completely away from the colossus I'd been sent to kill, just to look around.
And yes, its a shame that most games don't implement exploration aswell as this game does.
I remember on SoTC I'd just ride around for hours at a time, completely away from the colossus I'd been sent to kill, just to look around.
And yes, its a shame that most games don't implement exploration aswell as this game does.
Metroid Prime is awesome. The more times I play it, the more I discover about the world and its story. It's part of why it's one of my favorite games of all time.
I agree on the lasting appeal of Windwaker's graphics against realistic-looking ones. I just watched the new Unskippable with Alpha Protocol and it looks old already.
I agree on the lasting appeal of Windwaker's graphics against realistic-looking ones. I just watched the new Unskippable with Alpha Protocol and it looks old already.
I've never really minded linearity as long as the experience was well put together, but recently I've come to appreciate exploration a lot more. Guess the long summer days have created a desire just to look around and find new things to do and...uh find.
Yahtzee often illustrates and articulates my guilty pleasures in gaming. Sometimes I just feel like, "the dork" when I play games, because I always want a little more than what's offered. I scoff at minimaps and GPS features, unless the game explicitly supports it. Such as a high-tech futuristic adventure, it would be warranted. Though that doesn't mean there should be an arrow pulling you around like a silly child.
Oblivion is a prime example. Differing tastes in the game and series aside, one could hardly argue that it makes sense to have a fully illustrated map telling you exactly where you are, what your azimuth is (direction you're facing), and exactly where you need to go. Let's also not forget you could simply click anywhere on the map and go there..
How much more exciting and majestic would Oblivion have been if the map was just a hand-drawn antiquated sheet of cloth with ink blots and tears throughout? Whenever something need to be explored, a quest of sorts, then your character would vaguely draw a destination with ink and feather. So you look at your map for a minute and note to yourself that you must go north until Cheydinhal, then branch off the western path until you find the big boulder & tree landmark, cave destination directly to the north of that.
Seriously, isn't that what fantasy exploration is all about? Forget arrows and waypoints, it doesn't make sense anymore. Developers spend all this time designing fully realized and detailed 3D worlds, yet instead of using them in any sort of logical gameplay mechanic, they'll just design them as "pretty art". Not enough I say. It's time to start abandoning minimaps and waypoints altogether for the appropriate games.
I want my next quest NPC to tell me to leave the southern gate, and travel along the cobblestone path until I find the abandoned hovel, then proceed towards the tree line to start my investigation for the missing child kidnapped by bandits. As Yahtzee stated, I don't want to stare at a 10x10pixel minimap when I should be taking in the beautifully detailed world, and actually using it.
I don't want him to brifely say, go fetch the child from the bandits, then have a destination pinpointed on my map, on my unable-to-malfunction compass and in full 3D in the form of an arrow on the horizon. How silly. I don't care if it "takes time" to find, that's kind of the point of a quest... you know, an "adventure", a freaking quest?? Not a monotonous task.
If people complain and whine that it's "too much work" and "not fun".. then.. get this.. they could make a separate difficulty!! The possibilities.... I shall journey to the patent office immediately!
Oblivion is a prime example. Differing tastes in the game and series aside, one could hardly argue that it makes sense to have a fully illustrated map telling you exactly where you are, what your azimuth is (direction you're facing), and exactly where you need to go. Let's also not forget you could simply click anywhere on the map and go there..
How much more exciting and majestic would Oblivion have been if the map was just a hand-drawn antiquated sheet of cloth with ink blots and tears throughout? Whenever something need to be explored, a quest of sorts, then your character would vaguely draw a destination with ink and feather. So you look at your map for a minute and note to yourself that you must go north until Cheydinhal, then branch off the western path until you find the big boulder & tree landmark, cave destination directly to the north of that.
Seriously, isn't that what fantasy exploration is all about? Forget arrows and waypoints, it doesn't make sense anymore. Developers spend all this time designing fully realized and detailed 3D worlds, yet instead of using them in any sort of logical gameplay mechanic, they'll just design them as "pretty art". Not enough I say. It's time to start abandoning minimaps and waypoints altogether for the appropriate games.
I want my next quest NPC to tell me to leave the southern gate, and travel along the cobblestone path until I find the abandoned hovel, then proceed towards the tree line to start my investigation for the missing child kidnapped by bandits. As Yahtzee stated, I don't want to stare at a 10x10pixel minimap when I should be taking in the beautifully detailed world, and actually using it.
I don't want him to brifely say, go fetch the child from the bandits, then have a destination pinpointed on my map, on my unable-to-malfunction compass and in full 3D in the form of an arrow on the horizon. How silly. I don't care if it "takes time" to find, that's kind of the point of a quest... you know, an "adventure", a freaking quest?? Not a monotonous task.
If people complain and whine that it's "too much work" and "not fun".. then.. get this.. they could make a separate difficulty!! The possibilities.... I shall journey to the patent office immediately!
Y'know, I actually have a PS2 now. I need to get my hands on SotC. And Ico. Meh.
Anyway. There is a fine line between "exploration" and "big empty space that I have to waste my time crossing to get to the next interesting thing", and then a pretty thick line between that and "dry, lifeless nation full of angry young men who have come to the Republic of SocialCommentarystan just to ruin your day" (I'm looking at you, Far Cry 2). There have been a handful of games that have nailed it down on at least a few tries- that lonely culvert with the windchimes in Half-Life 2's canals, the broadcasting tower in Fallout 3 looping a taped plea for help from 200 years ago, even Oblivion's drowned troll (with poorly-spelled suicide note). It takes a conscious decision for a developer to spend time on something that people can easily blow past, that half of their audience or more will never spend the time to look for, just for the few who like to putter around and find interesting things that change nothing but how we look at the game world.
Of course, those developers also have to make sure that we have a chance to find these interesting things without twenty armed thugs at every street corner with nothing better to do than shoot at us.
Anyway. There is a fine line between "exploration" and "big empty space that I have to waste my time crossing to get to the next interesting thing", and then a pretty thick line between that and "dry, lifeless nation full of angry young men who have come to the Republic of SocialCommentarystan just to ruin your day" (I'm looking at you, Far Cry 2). There have been a handful of games that have nailed it down on at least a few tries- that lonely culvert with the windchimes in Half-Life 2's canals, the broadcasting tower in Fallout 3 looping a taped plea for help from 200 years ago, even Oblivion's drowned troll (with poorly-spelled suicide note). It takes a conscious decision for a developer to spend time on something that people can easily blow past, that half of their audience or more will never spend the time to look for, just for the few who like to putter around and find interesting things that change nothing but how we look at the game world.
Of course, those developers also have to make sure that we have a chance to find these interesting things without twenty armed thugs at every street corner with nothing better to do than shoot at us.
Hey, I think I know that xSmootx dude. He's a half-troll on the Kingdom of Loathing boards. I remember that after they added a great javascript fight menu to replace the clunky html-based selection thingy they had before, and even made it option, he said he didn't like it because it felt unnecessary.
I think this column must have made him sexually aroused. Like, a lot.
OT: This is probably why I'm enjoying playing FUEL so much more than all signs say I should.
I think this column must have made him sexually aroused. Like, a lot.
OT: This is probably why I'm enjoying playing FUEL so much more than all signs say I should.
SOTC had a GPS system. It isn't as obvious as said giant arrow, but you could hold down the "tell me where to go button" and the light acts as the GPS. But people preferred to use the light beam as a pointer then ride off in that direction.
But it was so much more than just the GPS, it helped to put you in Wander's position. The giant arrow is intended for the gamer. your character doesn't see it. the light beam on the other hand is intended for both Wander and the gamer.
(As much as I hate the game I'm going to talk about) Prince of Persia 2008 also did a very good job of incorporating the GPS into the game. Elika made a ball of light which would guide the Prince to his destination.
that isn't to say that games without massive exploration aren't fun. Super Mario Bros/World were entirely "run to the right"
However, games where gameplay is made to deliver the player to the next cutscene, they walk a very fine line.
I love Kingdom Hearts, but there is practically no exploration value of any kind. Everything to see is everything you have seen from the initial play through. In Kingdom Hearts 2, we were graced with The World That Never Was, a giant dark city with an even bigger castle. We didn't get to explore any of it. We walked down a path that told the story.
Metal Gear Solid 4 apparently also suffers from this. 40 hours is the average playthough. 3-4 hours is actual gameplay.
Which reminds me, we didn't get a Metal Gear August this year. I was hoping they would get to another part of the story.
But it was so much more than just the GPS, it helped to put you in Wander's position. The giant arrow is intended for the gamer. your character doesn't see it. the light beam on the other hand is intended for both Wander and the gamer.
(As much as I hate the game I'm going to talk about) Prince of Persia 2008 also did a very good job of incorporating the GPS into the game. Elika made a ball of light which would guide the Prince to his destination.
that isn't to say that games without massive exploration aren't fun. Super Mario Bros/World were entirely "run to the right"
However, games where gameplay is made to deliver the player to the next cutscene, they walk a very fine line.
I love Kingdom Hearts, but there is practically no exploration value of any kind. Everything to see is everything you have seen from the initial play through. In Kingdom Hearts 2, we were graced with The World That Never Was, a giant dark city with an even bigger castle. We didn't get to explore any of it. We walked down a path that told the story.
Metal Gear Solid 4 apparently also suffers from this. 40 hours is the average playthough. 3-4 hours is actual gameplay.
Which reminds me, we didn't get a Metal Gear August this year. I was hoping they would get to another part of the story.
Finally! Someone mentions Metroid Prime in a positive light! That game was awesome. (and series; I only own the third one, sorry) The way Yahtzee kept mentioning Nintendo knocking off games like Metroid I got the feeling he didn't like them.(Sorry people, but Other M looks like a load of bullshit to me. My god does it look horrible!) Anyways, I love exploration, especially when a game manages to mix tension, mood, and a sense of discovery into the mix. Great job Yahtzee.
...I miss you Metroid Prime...
...I miss you Metroid Prime...
due to having curiosity, i also enjoy exploring game worlds when possible; especially if the game rewards you for it. the extra health and stamina came in handy for my initial gamefaq-less playthrough of SotC. that tiny colossus beat my ass all the way back up to the platform as punishment for missing him the first time.
being able to go where i please without getting reminded my next destination every five minutes helps with immersion. speaking of, people complain about the bleak and boring landscape of SotC when it just wouldn't have had the same atmosphere if a rainbow guided you through a lush green forest to the next smiling colossus armed with a giant lollipop.
games like bioshock, ratchet and clank, and kingdom hearts had some exploration as you could backtrack to old areas with new upgrades to reach previously unreachable areas which increased my interest in them.
being able to go where i please without getting reminded my next destination every five minutes helps with immersion. speaking of, people complain about the bleak and boring landscape of SotC when it just wouldn't have had the same atmosphere if a rainbow guided you through a lush green forest to the next smiling colossus armed with a giant lollipop.
games like bioshock, ratchet and clank, and kingdom hearts had some exploration as you could backtrack to old areas with new upgrades to reach previously unreachable areas which increased my interest in them.
In SotC, I liked getting fruit and shooting lizards. The banality of needing to hunt for nourishment in order to better face your challenges seemed right at home in this world. Remember the Neverending Story? The feel that there was true trials in a hard world for everyone was palpable, and I felt this game was the immersive version of that kind of story. Epic!
-Grumble- I'm incredibly frustrated that I have to constantly sound like a sheep here and agree with you. I sort of wish you'd attack some thing that I agree with just so I don't have to sound like a complete and utter sheep when I praise your reasoning and ideas. However it seems again you'd struck a cord that plays a sound I like. Exploration that is.
Though I'm not going to lie to you. I never played Shadow of the Colossus, the game was out for the PS2 and at the time of release I'd been stuck with an Xbox. When I finally got my hands on new PS2 the game was out of shops and the 360 was on it's was out. However I did play Windwaker and it truly was my favourite Legend of Zelda. I was at first a little sceptical as while I enjoyed Ocarina of time... I'm not that big of a LoZ fan and I wasn't all to interested in that game. However when I finally forked out the money for the game I started to enjoy it. I enjoyed it for, like you mentioned, exploration. I enjoyed going through the ocean trying to fill in every blank spot like that Cutler Becket fellow in PoC. I also enjoyed the whole mystery of it all, having no idea what would pop up next, a ghost ship?, a typhoon?... A Krakan maybe?. The fact that I was all alone on my little boat helpless and out in the middle of the ocean also helped increase the tension when some thing like a Ghost Ship did pop up.
I liked that kind of exploration. I like open ended world that I can sink my teeth into. It does seem like new games are trying for this type of exploration however they seem to think the best way to do it is to just make the map massive... However when they do this they seem to forget to fill the maps with anything of interest and this large map seems empty.
Speaking of maps, that's what also can spoil a large open end world. Maps revealing everything. Now I'm not against maps, however I would rather they leave all the areas you haven't been blanked out rather than revealing it all. That creates a sense of mystery, you don't know what's around the next corner, that black spot on the map could contain anything... Might be worth taking a look. When it's all revealed to us... there's no fun to it... I don't feel like I'm exploring, I feel like it's all already been done for me and I just have to go to set places to pick up a few items.
Well that's my two quid on it.
Speaking of exploration though, that new PoC game looks like the type of game to have some potentially good exploration. I mean you go around sailing every where, there's got to be plenty of undiscovered islands to explore, nasty sea beasties to run into and possibly a few ghost ships.
Also I'll apologise if my grammar is extremely off in this post. It's 6 in the morning and I haven't slept since 8 Yesterday morning.
Though I'm not going to lie to you. I never played Shadow of the Colossus, the game was out for the PS2 and at the time of release I'd been stuck with an Xbox. When I finally got my hands on new PS2 the game was out of shops and the 360 was on it's was out. However I did play Windwaker and it truly was my favourite Legend of Zelda. I was at first a little sceptical as while I enjoyed Ocarina of time... I'm not that big of a LoZ fan and I wasn't all to interested in that game. However when I finally forked out the money for the game I started to enjoy it. I enjoyed it for, like you mentioned, exploration. I enjoyed going through the ocean trying to fill in every blank spot like that Cutler Becket fellow in PoC. I also enjoyed the whole mystery of it all, having no idea what would pop up next, a ghost ship?, a typhoon?... A Krakan maybe?. The fact that I was all alone on my little boat helpless and out in the middle of the ocean also helped increase the tension when some thing like a Ghost Ship did pop up.
I liked that kind of exploration. I like open ended world that I can sink my teeth into. It does seem like new games are trying for this type of exploration however they seem to think the best way to do it is to just make the map massive... However when they do this they seem to forget to fill the maps with anything of interest and this large map seems empty.
Speaking of maps, that's what also can spoil a large open end world. Maps revealing everything. Now I'm not against maps, however I would rather they leave all the areas you haven't been blanked out rather than revealing it all. That creates a sense of mystery, you don't know what's around the next corner, that black spot on the map could contain anything... Might be worth taking a look. When it's all revealed to us... there's no fun to it... I don't feel like I'm exploring, I feel like it's all already been done for me and I just have to go to set places to pick up a few items.
Well that's my two quid on it.
Speaking of exploration though, that new PoC game looks like the type of game to have some potentially good exploration. I mean you go around sailing every where, there's got to be plenty of undiscovered islands to explore, nasty sea beasties to run into and possibly a few ghost ships.
Also I'll apologise if my grammar is extremely off in this post. It's 6 in the morning and I haven't slept since 8 Yesterday morning.
The article went over your head. Exploration in SotC is rewarding precisely because there are no artificial rewards. There isn't a guaranteed landmark every 100-200 yards or the promise of countless shiny collectibles. You explore because you want to see what's out there - as opposed to chasing some dev-inserted carrot. Exploration, like the story, is highly organic. There isn't an overriding sensation of "game design" permeating every inch of SotC. That's what makes it a special game to so many people.hermes200 said:
Also, people hating on the graphics are pretty far off-base. The art design holds up amazingly well, and the tech behind some of the effects was extremely high-end for PS2 at the time. In fact, HD versions of SotC and Ico look pretty damn good without any changes to texture detail or effects. It was a feat at release, and it still looks good with a simple bump in resolution and frame rate.
Finally, I think people are confusing "empty by design" with "empty because the dev is lazy". Wandering around the forbidden valley of SotC, I get the distinct impression that it's a dead land. Yes, most things are absent, but that absence is a palpable thing you see and feel as you journey through the many decaying ruins and remnants of the previous age. There's a very real sense that a vibrant and fully populated world once existed on that very spot - and now it's gone. That's entirely different playing through a game with a needlessly sparse or empty environment brought on by the limited funds or talents of the developers.
No my friend, I like to be rewarded by the developers for the time I spend in their game. If a world is bland and empty, it's bland and empty. If I wanted to waste my time just to "explore" such a wonderful gameworld I'd go play WoW instead. It's gameworld is infinitely vaster and boring-er.AgentNein said:
The poster above said he found the same things I find boring, wonderful. It's different tastes. I just wasn't convinced, while others may be totally immersed.
While I'm certainly one of the types that like to visit every corner of an area before moving off, in the case of SotC, I found myself ignoring a good chunck of that. I like exploration, don't get me wrong, and the reward can just as easily be a stunning vista as it can be a shiny bit of loot.
The thing though is, with SotC, is I found it lacking in variety: After a few finds, you clue into the fact that there isn't anything else but pretty scenery to find, and a few lizards. If you are exploring, you want to find something, but at least I would prefer not to know beforehand what I'm going to find. In SotC, I do just that: I will find landscape. Pretty landscape, but still just more landscape.
Morrowind, bleak and repetitative scenery nonewithstanding, did it better in this department. You might find a small village, or a sidequest, or just a cave with a few people in it. Had the landscape been more interesting, and the trekking across it less mindnumbing, it might have gotten the best of both worlds. I did have the sense that "If you just keep walking north, eventually I'll find something cool, and I may even get to use it". Same deal with Fallout 3, really.
Exploration is a great part of many games. As long as they put some variety into it.
The thing though is, with SotC, is I found it lacking in variety: After a few finds, you clue into the fact that there isn't anything else but pretty scenery to find, and a few lizards. If you are exploring, you want to find something, but at least I would prefer not to know beforehand what I'm going to find. In SotC, I do just that: I will find landscape. Pretty landscape, but still just more landscape.
Morrowind, bleak and repetitative scenery nonewithstanding, did it better in this department. You might find a small village, or a sidequest, or just a cave with a few people in it. Had the landscape been more interesting, and the trekking across it less mindnumbing, it might have gotten the best of both worlds. I did have the sense that "If you just keep walking north, eventually I'll find something cool, and I may even get to use it". Same deal with Fallout 3, really.
Exploration is a great part of many games. As long as they put some variety into it.
I agree, even though Oblivion had the compass-arrow-in-your-face mechanic, this problem was partly sidestepped, given that there were always something else to do. Oblivion didn't force you to explore, but it rewarded you if you actively went about it.Neuromaster said:
)I agree mostly though -even while many of my favorite games have heavy exploration- we mustn't forget the benefits of encapsulating the player (ie. the tight, claustrophobic spaces in portal and the streamline of many shooters)
Love 'ya Yahtzee
Note: Just on the exploration as a gameplay mechanic point; has anyone played any ToT games? (the studio bases itself largely on explorative gameplay)
Love 'ya Yahtzee
Note: Just on the exploration as a gameplay mechanic point; has anyone played any ToT games? (the studio bases itself largely on explorative gameplay)