On the Avatar Defense Argument

Recommended Videos

Gethsemani_v1legacy

New member
Oct 1, 2009
2,552
0
0
Der Golem said:
I just think that the warrior goes native against his leaders in scifi! has been done before. I don't think anyone's copied anything, its just that quite a few people say that its has never been done like this, and I think there are a few examples that say quite the contrary.
Hell, come to think of it, Jim Raynor and the Protoss might exhibit this same concept...
It has very seldon been done before in this concept (I can't think of a decent example). Jake Sully presents you with a whole diffrent set of questions, as opposed to say John Smith or Jim Raynor or even Paul. The other three are obviously outsiders, they can't be a natural part of the people/race they stand up for because in the end they are diffrent. It can be seen in how they look and behave.
But Jake Sully? He starts out as identifying himself with humans, but as the movie goes on he finds himself identifying with the Na'vi instead.

The diffrence here is that where John Smith gets rejected for being an "indian lover", Jake Sully gets rejected because he is a crippled soldier. The soldiers see him as a cripple and the scientists see him as a jarhead. With the Na'vi, he eventually finds acceptance for who he is, they even embrace him as one of their own despite the fact that they know he is diffrent.

The good ol' trope of "Sticking it to your superiors" has been done a lot of times. But Avatar twists it because it deals with issues like identity, self-awareness and group perceptions. I am not saying that Avatar is a masterpiece of a script or anything, because I don't think it is. But to dismiss the plot as just being a cheap knock-off is unfair, since there has obviously been quite some thought that has gone into it.
 

gamefreakbsp

New member
Sep 27, 2009
922
0
0
GammaZord said:
2nd sentence: Amount of screentime doesn't necessarily translate into convincing material.

3rd sentence: Translation: "This website could use a bit less of people with opinions different from my own."
I suppose in some cases screentime doesn't necessarily mean convincing material.....but this wasn't one of those cases. I don't mind when people have an opinion that differs from my own. But when you start forcing that flimsy opinion down people's throats, thats when I take issue with it.
 

Veylon

New member
Aug 15, 2008
1,626
0
0
I thought it was solid, but not great. The visuals were fantastic and the characters were likable enough, especially the Colonel.

The plot had several weak points, not nearly as bad as Phantom Menace, mind, but it needed some editing it never got. Key exposition was never included that could have been done with a line or two. Floating mountains? How does that happen? What, precisely, is unobtanium, that people are willing to pay $20 million an ounce for it?

More to the point, how could a soldier run away in the middle of an operation in a gunship and not be disciplined afterwards? There were other people in there, didn't they bother to report back at base? And the prison break? One guard total, really? And what were all those ground troops doing there at the end, when the mission was purely airborne?

I'm sure there's a wiki somewhere than can answer this stuff, but it really should've been in the movie. These are things that would only have taken a line of dialog or two.
 

Sindaine

New member
Dec 29, 2008
438
0
0
What you're saying got me thinking... hasn't this idea been done before? Obviously the answer is yes, what with Pocahontas and all.
not really; John Smith wasn't accepted into their tribe. In fact, they tried to kill him. and then he nearly died anyway and went home.
 

GammaZord

New member
Jan 26, 2009
289
0
0
gamefreakbsp said:
GammaZord said:
2nd sentence: Amount of screentime doesn't necessarily translate into convincing material.

3rd sentence: Translation: "This website could use a bit less of people with opinions different from my own."
I suppose in some cases screentime doesn't necessarily mean convincing material.....but this wasn't one of those cases. I don't mind when people have an opinion that differs from my own. But when you start forcing that flimsy opinion down people's throats, thats when I take issue with it.
I'm not "forcing" it down anyone's throat--this isn't propaganda. You're completely free to agree or disagree with me and say WHY; which, up to this point, 1 person has actually done.
 

Thaius

New member
Mar 5, 2008
3,862
0
0
Der Golem said:
Thaius said:
GammaZord said:
Dune was an incredible book, but you really can't say Avatar copied off it. Inspired by it, maybe, but not a copy. Name Dances with Wolves and Pocahontas all you want, but I stand by my statement that the story has never been told in the way Avatar presented it.
I was actually thinking more in terms of the Spice war (which I believe is similar to the motivation for the human invasion of Pandora) and Paul's relationship with the Fremen (which has some similarities with Jake's relationship to the Na'vi)
And that second one is the major part of Avatar's plot

I'll agree, Paul's motivations are a lot more w/o question. Questions of loyalty and morality, from memory, becomes a theme in the first couple of sequels.

I just think that the warrior goes native against his leaders in scifi! has been done before. I don't think anyone's copied anything, its just that quite a few people say that its has never been done like this, and I think there are a few examples that say quite the contrary.
Hell, come to think of it, Jim Raynor and the Protoss might exhibit this same concept...
If you're going to reduce the movie to "warrior goes native against his leaders in scifi," then yes, it probably has. But, much like Dune, Cameron created an entire world. He did what only books like Dune and Lord of the Rings had done: but in a movie. I think the unique and beautiful world of Pandora, as well as its connection with the animals and Na'vi, really helped to separate the movie from any others of similar story.
 

EnigmaticSevens

New member
Sep 18, 2009
265
0
0
Yeah... I was near determined to leave this alone... but then you had to go and spit on the Bible... and there's a rather barbaric part of me that wants to burn you at the stake for it... in all love and good cheer.

Dune and Avatar should, never, NEVER, be mentioned within the same context. Let's put things into perspective... Dune = Judeo-Christian God, at best, Avatar = obscure local priest.
 

Soushi

New member
Jun 24, 2009
895
0
0
Ummm, sorry but, why do you guys care so much? I mean, at worst you lost 10 bucks on a movie you didn't like and can draw parallels to other movies from. I mean, do you actually think that any of us who really liked Avatar are going to read your posts and think "Well... maybe i'm wrong." Of course, it goes the other way too, but still.
 

TundraWolf

New member
Dec 6, 2008
411
0
0
GammaZord said:
TundraWolf said:
GammaZord said:
snip
I appreciate your well-thought response and your recommendations.
My pleasure.

Now I admit that my Op is a bit convoluted, but I had no intention of comparing Avatar as a whole, with TF2. And I don't consider Avatar a "horrible" movie. You say average at worst I say average at very best. But I agree that Avatar is no doubt a better film and was merely using TF2 as a representation of an absolute abortion of a script. In this context, I was using "script" and "plot" seperately. Here, with "script" I meant spkoen dialogue so to speak and with "plot" I meant narrative structure. In respects to narrative structure between the two, I agree that there is no comparison. Avatar has a clean structure (exposition, climax etc.). It's a heackneyed structure, but it's structure nonetheless. TF2's narrative has no structure, to call it a plot would be to offend plots everywhere. So, to clear things up, I had no intention of associating Avatar's plot with that of TF2.
Fair enough, I suppose. Just as long as we agree on the whole Avatar vs. Revenge of the Fallen issue, I can agree to what you're saying here. Mostly, anyways.

But, considering spoken dialogue, Avatar certainly reminded me of TF2. Lines like "Come to Papa" and the incessant "I see you" motif are about as bad as it gets. For me, Avatar and TF2 were the two worst movies I saw this year (or that came out this year that I saw). But, I place Avatar miles ahead of the last place TF2. In other words, TF2 is one of the worst movies I've ever seen, Avatar was simply a movie that I didn't like.
Okay, the first thing I will reply with has to do with the military commander dude from Avatar. He was absolutely horrible, and definitely the worst part of that movie. The only reason he was there was so that Jake could have an epic fight with him to bring closure to the movie. Which wasn't needed, because the massive battle worked well enough in that respect. He was a two-dimensional character at best, and really brought down the movie. Sure, he was super hardcore and a character you couldn't help but watch (sort of the same way people watch car crashes), but he was a horrible character and every line he said was hackneyed, over-the-top and just generally bad. And that's entirely the fault of the script he was given. So, in that regard, I definitely agree with you.

But I didn't really mind a lot of the other dialogue. Sure, it was cliched and some of it irrelevant, but it wasn't overly bad. It definitely wasn't anything special, but neither was it horrible. Jake had a fairly well fleshed-out character, I thoroughly enjoyed the character Neytiri, and the rest were at least decent. To me, anyways.

I could go on about for days about how much better Avatar is than TF2. Their only connection is that I consider Avatar to be a suburban sized swimming pool of shit dialogue compared to the Pacific Ocean of shit dialogue that is TF2. One's the epitome of shit dialguem the other's a serviceable example.
I shan't say you are wrong even though I don't agree with you. You are entitled to your opinion as much as I am to mine. I suppose we'll just have to agree that it's better than Revenge of the Fallen and move on. Agreed?
 

RanD00M

New member
Oct 26, 2008
6,947
0
0
Suiseiseki IRL said:
When can we just all accept the fact that we either saw a great movie or were gipped out of our money (you choose) and shut up about it?
The word opinion sadly doesn't exist in some people's vocabulary.
 

RanD00M

New member
Oct 26, 2008
6,947
0
0
Kimarous said:
[http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=403&u=12761528]
And the person that made that clearly did not think that Pocahontas was just Dances with Wolves in an animated form.
 

Plurralbles

New member
Jan 12, 2010
4,611
0
0
Earthmonger said:
ShotgunShaman said:
Congrats. + 5 failpoints for the double post, and + 3 for not giving any sort of discussion value.
Eh, what the Hell are you talking about? The discussion value is right here:

GammaZord said:
Zombieland= Good Film, characters=interesting, visuals=exciting, writing=witty, plot=servicable etc.
Zombieland was refreshing. Comedic without being over the top Shaun Of The Dead nonsense. It gave the finger to political correctness, always good. It gave zombies the magic abilities of.. well, running and climbing. Duh. The only thing I really didn't like was Bill Murray, who's inclusion and acting were just so damn campy they detracted from an otherwise fairly good zombie flick.
But when he appeared every geek and their dad were screaming, "OMG IT'S FREAKI'N BILL FREAKI'N MURRAY, THAT'S SO COOL!!"

Or was that jus tme and my friends?

I also saw it in a Columbus, Ohio movie theatre so when teh main character's "name" was Columbus and they said it burned to the ground... Awesome, everyone applauded.

Sorry anyone for spoilers.

I haven't seen avatar though. Not sure if I ever will.

I don't think the discussion of starwars and avatar aren't warranted, but if they make it a trilogy or something, then maybe there will be a large population who remembers but if Star Wars wasn't a couple of movies, we'd have a lot less to remember.
 

ScottocS

New member
Mar 27, 2009
105
0
0
Burn mame kill! There is nothing new in the world anymore. Everything is based on something that someone else has thought of or made before. That is one opinion. SO compare all you like. There is also the other opinion, James Cameron made a brilliant ORIGINAL movie of great spleandour and VISUAL AWE. Then there is the other group, which I would say I fit in, who cares! You like the movie, you don't or your in the middle ground. It had some good points, mostly visual spleandour.

I believe that's why people are only debating mainly on the script and story telling, because who would dare criticise the Visuals of Avatar? They were truly epic. :p

I have but only one bone to pick, who thought up the oh so creative idea of "UN-OBTAIN-IUM"? +5 for that original creation. Otherwise a very good movie. Full of lots of Action and VISUAL Spleandor :p
 

Instant K4rma

StormFella
Aug 29, 2008
2,208
0
0
Why does everyone keep going on about this movie? Daybreakers came out. Thats a movie. Why havent I seen fifteen threads on it every day since the day it came out? What makes Avatar so special? James Cameron? He's a good director. Is it because Avatar didnt live up to T2 or Aliens? Well of course it didnt. It was a good movie. I enjoyed it. Why must everyone analyze this film so much? I guess I must be missing something.
 

Wicky_42

New member
Sep 15, 2008
2,468
0
0
Kimarous said:
[http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=403&u=12761528]
Lol, you could just say "White folk go to new land, try to kill natives for local resources, fail - oh, and one of the whites goes native and gets the girl." No need for any of that exposition/name/detail crap, just tell it like it is!

Hell, I would go with "Guys fight guys over stuff" - that tells us all the same things, right? Well, it does if you add in "relationship sub-plot, fight against injustice elements." Then again, that could be just about any film, from Lord of the Rings to Kill Bill.

Yeah, simplification is fun - but the devil's in the details ;)
 

Asimov

New member
Oct 13, 2009
92
0
0
I want to answer one plot hole that has been brought up- why is unobtanium worth so much? Well, because it's from Pandora. People will pay shitloads of money for anything exotic or rare, to showcase their money. Gold has almost no use to the average person, but people pay tremendous money for it because it's shiny and rare.
 

Cap'n Haddock

New member
Jul 28, 2009
90
0
0
Asimov said:
I want to answer one plot hole that has been brought up- why is unobtanium worth so much? Well, because it's from Pandora. People will pay shitloads of money for anything exotic or rare, to showcase their money. Gold has almost no use to the average person, but people pay tremendous money for it because it's shiny and rare.
At the scale the humans were mining it, I doubt it.

Early settlers mined gold because of its place in human society. Until only the past 100 years has gold wavered as the most common form of currency. Essentially, it WAS money. So to settlers finding gold in land was like finding money that grew on trees. The Gold standard is still used today; all of the paper money we use is backed up by gold that the United States owns. [link url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bullion_Depository]Fort Knox[/link] is infamous for its status as a gold depository, and the Bond film [link url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldfinger_(film)]Goldfinger[/link] focused on a plot to steal the gold from Fort Knox, sparking an economic crash of epic proportions and rendering Goldfinger an economical magnate.

Unobtanium on the other hand, has no such status in human history. I find it the most massive plothole in the entire damn film. Men fight and die for the procurement of this resource, which is so valuable that companies will pour trillions into obtaining it. Cameron seems to have really forgotten the human element of the equation in his little movie and spent all his budget into rendering his lush rainforest that basically looks like a bunch of [link url=http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Fuzor]Fuzors[/link] from Beast Wars. He just made the [link url=http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/apu/rv_cmp/article_rv_adam_01.html]APU[/link] mech suits from The Matrix and gave it a windshield.

Cameron's Pandorapedia calls [link url=http://james-camerons-avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Unobtanium]Unobtanium[/link] a "room temperature super-conductor for energy" which somehow makes it worth 20 million for a kilo, about 2 pounds.
From Cameron's little wiki thing

"Without Unobtanium, interstellar commerce not be possible. Unobtanium is not only the key to Earth's energy needs in the 22nd century, but it is the enabler of interstellar travel and the establishment of a truly spacefaring civilization. Making a feed back loop, the more Unobtanium is mined, the more ships can be built, and more mining equipment can be sent to Pandora."

Maybe Cameron should have told the audience the importance of this crap instead of a little one liner telling us about the cost? Maybe he should have underlined that Earth wants it for energy to expand into the stars and to move beyond Earth? I mean this all this fluff was written to underscore just how "bad" and "unsustainable" humans are to the "pure" and "wholesome" natural majesty that Cameron gleefully displays in the film.

All of Cameron's work reflects his view of the struggle between nature and mechanics, and the ultimate triumph of nature over the mechanical. Aliens pits the raw natural predatory instincts of a brooding monster against the cultured, mechanical order that humans use in space. Terminator is a contest between remorseless, unchanging march of the corporate machine against the raging, unpredictable spirit of humans. Even Titanic showcases the sparkling testament to humanity's ingenuity and engineering destroyed in a single blow by nature. Avatar is nothing new; perhaps an update that lets Cameron show off the latest in special effects and give his spin on current themes of the energy crisis and American imperialism.

When it comes down to a contest for exploiting aliens in 2009 films, I found District 9 to be Avatar's superior in every way, its much more intelligent, had bloodier action, and was funnier than Avatar. Its aliens were also much more complex and interesting to watch; every time one was on the screen I found myself examining it closely, an activity I didn't have forced into my face like every one of Avatar's alien wildlife closeups, just begging you to stare and drool at it like a coverpage of Maxim magazine. Great job, you hired a legion of computer animation majors and gave them 10 years. If it had any less quality I could only be disappointed. Back on the point, District 9 was in every way just as poignant a meditation on human nature as Avatar, and wasn't as predictable, except in the good ways when you think to yourself "oh he gon SHOOT HIM" and then delivers that moment with gleeful, impish energy.
 

ShotgunShaman

New member
Apr 1, 2009
654
0
0
GammaZord said:
ShotgunShaman said:
Congrats. + 5 failpoints for the double post, and + 3 for not giving any sort of discussion value.
As for the dp, keyboard went wack on me--sorry to inconveience you.
Buuuut, +4 to you for the irony of posting about a lack of discussion value.
So, would you care to, wait for it...offer some OT discussion value?
Touché. Well, I would have gone on to plant some seeds of discussion, but I had some busywork to attend to.

But the double post is unforgivable.

And it would be hypocrisy, not irony.