On Used Games, etc.

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ralfy

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GonzoGamer said:
The while the only thing there were the value doesn't transfer is the online pass, and that is the cause of complaint.

The rest of the situation is more or less Jim Sterlings argument of "Good games doesn't get traded in" and it builds on the assumption that the rest of the world follows those ideals. Sadly the truth is that a large amount of content (and therefore a long lifespan) seem to have little if any effect on the trade-in rate.

Let us take your borderlands 2 example here. Check your gamestop in 3 weeks. Look at if the borderlands 2 game made it to the used section. If the world doesn't hold your values then the you cant use your personal value as a representation of what the world is doing.

The thing is thou, what you are saying there is with more features and maps ect is something the PC market has done for ages now. The thing is they dont have to compete with themselves, so they can keep adding content for free because their product has a much longer shelf life.

I want to point out one thing, because your last comment (I felt you it looked like you kinda wanted to excuse yourself " I did when I had less money"). There has been a lot of people who has taken the idea that "Used games are evil". Used games are not evil nor is Gamestop for doing business the way they do. Both is a result of how games were consumed and sold as a medium. The games industry didn't have the foresight to prevent the logical conclusion that having a medium with a 100 times the lifespand of its usefulness to the consumer. Nor did they have the tech to do anything about it. However now they do have the tech and they take the steps they need to do in order to protect their income. There is no ill intend in all of this. When we were given offers to buy games we could take them or not. No1 ripped anyone off here. Time just showed the gaming industry that those offer wern't good for them in the long run and so they change the deal when they want to sell us product in the future. No one is doing anything wrong, everyone is just looking for the best deal. All sides of the trade.
All of these points support my arguments! Publishers have not been losing money due to the used games market. If any, sales go up each time. They lose the opportunity to make more money, but that's obviously not the same as losing money. That's why there's no "opportunity cost" line in income statements.

The problem is that publishers' costs have been going up, especially as games become more complex, and the cost curve reveals that at some point even the removal of a used games market will not be enough to cover those costs.

To make matters worse, part of increased sales includes more gamers buying more games each year, something that will difficult if older games remain "useful." I raised this point several times: Browne argues that games are not supposed to be "disposable entertainment." But for game sales to keep going up, they HAVE to be "disposable entertainment." The general idea to see in light of that is "planned obsolescence," where the business cycle can only go on as long as consumers keep buying newly developed products each tine and not enjoying older ones.

It also doesn't help if it turns out that gamers are affected by prices. Say, at $50 a title, then it won't be surprising if more buy fewer games each year (something that publishers don't want to see), wait for prices to drop (as seen in annual and other sales), will trade-in their old games to be able to afford to buy new ones, etc.

That's where your argument of games as a service comes in. With that, publishers will now have more control over the amount of time gamers can appreciate the services that they paid for. Or publishers can continue milking gamers for more money from the same game, e.g., requiring a particular fee to play a game for a certain period, then requiring an additional fee to continue playing the game. One consequence of this scheme, is that one will no longer own any games. Instead, he will go online and choose to play a game on demand, like watching movies on demand. If, of course, the service is not available or the company closes....

Very likely, those who like to keep games and play them without such restrictions in the way that one can read books and listen to music on CDs will not be very happy.

The problem is that the same issue concerning prices may also apply. For example, one article states that we may be seeing more moves to F2P multiplayer as more gamers find it more difficult to shell out around $15 a month to play them. Likely, as the current economic crisis persists, they will look for cheaper options (like a few dollars to be able to go up certain levels, or just pay full amount to buy the multiplayer client but play the game subscription-free), etc.

With that, the claim that those who complain can just go away is something that publishers won't accept easily because they need more paying gamers to cover their increasing costs.

Still, I think that there will still be several indies who will still make games that aren't as complex as the ones referred to in your post, and without restrictions like those given above, and those products are the ones that gamers will buy for fewer bucks and play for some time. Perhaps the game industry will eventually move to that phenomenon as the large companies are crushed by their own weight.

Meanwhile, as L1 puts it in his video, he'll still play his older games, and borrow and trade them.
 

Azorian

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Sep 25, 2012
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Ralfy said:
1. Publishers may require that gamers don't own games that they buy; instead, they are given a license to use them for a limited amount of time. With that, there won't be used games to sell. This will be necessary if no laws are passed not allowing pre-owned games to be sold.
Regarding this point, the recent ruling against Autodesk may become relevant. In the recently overtured case TIMOTHY S. VERNOR v. AUTODESK, INC, a federal district judge ruled that calling hard copies of software "liscenses" and allowing them to be used conditionally and not resold by forcing users to agree to a EULA violates the "first sale" doctrine, where the manufacturer of goods cannot legally bar a customer from reselling a product. With hard copies of games, such a situation has not played out yet, but is not hard to imagine, we have to accept terms of liscense agreements before we can use our x-box for instance. So, for the time being, there won't be any legal restrictions on someone selling used games, at least if it's a hard copy.

Games on Steam and other online services are a completely different matter. Without the physical object, the courts have ruled that these do not constitute physical property, so you have very little right to claim them as lost, stolen, or destroyed by anyone, nor can you legally compel anyone to relinquish the games or their value to you for any reason.
 

ralfy

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Draech said:
False logic right here.

Sales isn't dependent on one factor. It is dependent on many factors. That Sales go up doesn't prove Used games doesn't cost sales. There are 2 many factors to to say "If used sales cost sales then overall sales will go down". FALSE CONCLUSION MADE NOT TAKING INTO ACCOUNT OUTSIDE FACTORS! IF THEY HAD 3 AUDIENCE THEY HAD LAST YEAR SALES WILL GO UP!
Your idea that sales go "Sales didn't go down therefore used games diffident affect them negativly" is leading the evidence.

You dont take into acount
-increase in potential audience
-quality of that years release
-marketing budget
-number of releases said year
-economic climate for consumers said year

All of witch will affect sales. Yet in your mind it is just a 2 way choice. Sales not gone down = no sales lost to used. FALSE POSITIVE! Your evidence is flawed good sir. You cant prove how used games affect sales on how well sales in total are doing because they are not the only thing affection it. I Wouldn't have gone "Overall sales have gone down! Used games!" that is leading the evidence.
That's exactly my point! "You can't prove how used games affect sales on how well sales in total are not the only thing affecting it."

Also the proof that games stop actually rewraps for sales as new? I can do that quite easily. I bought my twin nephews 2 Pokemon games new. One of them had a savegame on. If you spend 2 seconds you will find tons of reports of Cerberus network codes already been used. How about here on the escapist
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_275/8176-Confessions-of-a-GameStop-Employee-Part-Three
Yeah I mean its not like it has been bloody proven....

And here is the worst part of it. Those are the ones where we find the actual hard evidence. How about all the games where we cant do that? The games that doesn't have one time uses or save games on? Or they were just smart enough to delete savegames? If you buy equipment for shrink wrapping then you are going to use it.
I think that is a separate issue! If a pre-owned game cannot be played again, then it shouldn't be sold. If it is sold as new (and specifically stated as such) then consumers can complain. This has nothing to do with publishers' complaints that they are losing money, complaints that you pointed out cannot be proven.

You dont argue the issue you side step around it. again and gain. You dont have a solid logical foundation. You use strawmen and misrepresent my arguments over and over. When I correct you the you just do it again.
What you just did in your recent point IS an example of side-stepping! And your first point ends up supporting what I said.

There is no straw man in my arguments as you ended up confirming them or repeating them: that publishers have no proof that they are losing money, and that they will end up selling games as services. Remember?

With that, I am the one who keeps correcting you, not the other way round.

I am wasting my time. If you cant deal with what I say without changing it then I have no reason to say something to you.
It's the other way round: I am the one wasting my time arguing with you. You keep asking for facts, and when presented with them, you insist that they are irrelevant. What's left is that you present anecdotes that side-step the issue! From there, you argue that my points are not logical even though you end up confirming or repeating them.
 

ralfy

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Azorian said:
Regarding this point, the recent ruling against Autodesk may become relevant. In the recently overtured case TIMOTHY S. VERNOR v. AUTODESK, INC, a federal district judge ruled that calling hard copies of software "liscenses" and allowing them to be used conditionally and not resold by forcing users to agree to a EULA violates the "first sale" doctrine, where the manufacturer of goods cannot legally bar a customer from reselling a product. With hard copies of games, such a situation has not played out yet, but is not hard to imagine, we have to accept terms of liscense agreements before we can use our x-box for instance. So, for the time being, there won't be any legal restrictions on someone selling used games, at least if it's a hard copy.

Games on Steam and other online services are a completely different matter. Without the physical object, the courts have ruled that these do not constitute physical property, so you have very little right to claim them as lost, stolen, or destroyed by anyone, nor can you legally compel anyone to relinquish the games or their value to you for any reason.
Thanks for sharing that! As L1 mentioned in the video, the consequence is that publishers will sell products online, and the products will generally be sold at the same prices as they were sold in disk form. There may be additional features to stop even the ability to share games, as mentioned earlier.

The irony is that these measures will make games "disposable entertainment," as the counter-claim was the reason why games should not be sold.

FWIW, though, European courts and several consumer groups have been challenging the point about downloaded software:

"An author of software cannot oppose the resale of his ?used? licences allowing the use of his programs downloaded from the internet"

http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2012-07/cp120094en.pdf

"German consumer group targets Valve over new EULA"

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-09-24-german-consumer-group-targets-valve-over-new-eula
 

ralfy

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Nope, no contradiction. Pre-owned sales do not lead to loss of money, as shown in previous messages.