One Last look at Mass Effect 3.

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BloatedGuppy

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Kipiru said:
That's just it- it's not, but it is the first time it got so much attention. Why? Because BioWare opened up to its fans. It tried to give them involvement in the project and then couldn't deliver. That is where all the disappointment comes from. And what evidence are you talking about,this isn't a court of law, this is all speculation and personal opinion as is everything on this thread!
No no no, that's not how this works. You don't get to use terms like "As we all know" or "For your information" and then hide behind the shield of "everything is opinion". A fact is that a poll with almost 100,000 respondents discussing opinions about the ending shortly after the game launched showed 90% of people unhappy with it. That's a self-selecting sample, obviously, which is why sensible people don't run around claiming that 90% of all people hated the ending, but it's the closest thing to objective evidence you have on the subject. You have nothing to support 90% of people liking it aside from your own bias, so that can't even be opinion...that's just fantasy. It's just wild speculation, based on nothing but your own indulgence in the fallacy of the silent majority.

An OPINIONATED statement would be "Despite all the complaining, I really liked the endings, and I'm sure others did as well". You can stand behind that all day long.
 

Uriain

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Kopikatsu said:
I'm extremely disappointed that the Indoctrination theory wasn't what they went with. I mean...Bioware actually went and set everything up so perfectly...

I watched this video just now. I gotta say that this is the best way I can explain how I feel about the ME3 ending, and the series in general.

I personally really enjoyed it, though I get why some may not, and now I have a very clear way to explain why I enjoyed the ending of ME3, thank you for posting this video :)
 

DioWallachia

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Nimcha said:
Or at least I hoped that last point was true but reading some of the comments in this thread made me realize the unfortunate truth that people will take 1% of a game and make it the most important thing in their lives and refuse to change their opinions, and yes they are opinions.
This is like, what, the 242.758 time i write this?

This may be a real shocker to you, but you can have opinions that are based on facts. (This water is wet, the sun is bright, these socks are cozy, etc.)

We can in fact argue that our opinion is factual, because we are not actually making an argument: we are making an observation. And case in point, ME had cracks all over the serie and not just the ending. Shamus Young argues that this is a long term process where the questions start to pile up until the breaking point (in this case, the ending of ME3.) If There were a few to none cracks over the series then the ending wouldnt have sparked so many questions that lead to MORE questions about the universe of ME and that werent answered.

And if you STILL have doubts about our.... "opinions" then i suggest that you look into this channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/smudboy/videos
 

DioWallachia

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RTSnab said:
Hmmm, well I actually liked the game, but I'm not the sort to get intellectually invested in a video game.
I played Mass Effect to feel like the savior of the galaxy, to see their spin on sci-fi, and to play with some futuristic guns. When I got to the ending, I noticed it was kinda weird, but I just kept going and didn't care. I got the control ending and never looked back. All in all, it was some of the most tense, well executed sci fi I've ever seen in a videogame.
Again, I didn't really care how many ass-pulls or plot changes the game had to make , as long as it made me feel like a badass , which it did. Maybe I just learned to just enjoy the ride, or that I don't care much about story in games to begin with. But the game is certainly memorable, and it does a good job at raising the stakes.
So did you felt like a badass when you killed everyone when the Mass Relays exploded? This image is the best analogy of your....delucion of badassery:


Do you feel like a hero now? no? well at least you enjoyed the ride :D

"I'm not the sort to get intellectually invested in a video game."

Then you didnt experience gaming at its finest, good sir. It seems that you never played Planescape Torment, Fallout 1 and 2, Sacrifice, Tyrian, Legacy of Kain, IJI, Silent Hill 1 - 3, Bastion, Eternal Darkness: Sanity Requiem, Heroes 3 of Might and Magic, Turgor/The Voide/Tension, Persona 2: Innocent Sin, Irisu Syndrome, Killer7, Deadly Premonition, System Shock 1-2, Deus Ex, DE:Human Revolution, Earthbound, Super Metroid and Metroid Prime series (visual storytelling at its finest. After all, actions speak more than words), Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, The Witcher 2, The Stanley Parable, Cave Story, Spec Ops: The Line (debatable), Hero Core, Journey, Neverwinter Nights, Grim Fandango, Star Control 2, Psychonauts and Ace Attorney.

Hell, even Ai to Yuuki to Kashiwamochi would give you a good time. Trust me :b
 

Kipiru

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BloatedGuppy said:
Kipiru said:
That's just it- it's not, but it is the first time it got so much attention. Why? Because BioWare opened up to its fans. It tried to give them involvement in the project and then couldn't deliver. That is where all the disappointment comes from. And what evidence are you talking about,this isn't a court of law, this is all speculation and personal opinion as is everything on this thread!
No no no, that's not how this works. You don't get to use terms like "As we all know" or "For your information" and then hide behind the shield of "everything is opinion". A fact is that a poll with almost 100,000 respondents discussing opinions about the ending shortly after the game launched showed 90% of people unhappy with it. That's a self-selecting sample, obviously, which is why sensible people don't run around claiming that 90% of all people hated the ending, but it's the closest thing to objective evidence you have on the subject. You have nothing to support 90% of people liking it aside from your own bias, so that can't even be opinion...that's just fantasy. It's just wild speculation, based on nothing but your own indulgence in the fallacy of the silent majority.

An OPINIONATED statement would be "Despite all the complaining, I really liked the endings, and I'm sure others did as well". You can stand behind that all day long.
First things first, I agree on the remark about the all-proof shield statement, but it's not my point to be simply stubborn. You say give you proof in the form of surveys and forums, but I would immediately lose that battle for a very simple reason. 100% of those surveys were made with the clear goal of showing the dislike of the game. In my mind that means that such surveys and forums would attract almost entirely people who are looking to vent their dissappointment with the game and so do not represent in any way the degree to which the game was received by the majority of players. Let's look at the figures, these can be checked: in March alone the game sold over 1.5milion copies, by now that number has doubled at least. I don't know of anywhere, that the amount of people expressing dislike with the game to go above the number you gave 100,000. That leaves a lot of people out there that have at least a 50/50 chance of like or dislike of ME3. I admit I'm judging from my own comunity, but I do believe this is a general pattern. Most of the people that have played the game are happy with it, while a small number is not and half of those are parroting what they've seen in the web and are simply trying to hop on the proverbial band wagon. The ones that liked the game show none to very little desire to go on the web and try to counter the negative feedback by saying "What do you mean someone didn't like it? So what?". Adding all this up, in my mind, leaves me with the conclusion that those vocal few, who have shown their dislike, is about the actual number(or pretty close of people who have issues with the game. And that leaves millions of people who, in the very worst have no issue big enough, with ME3 to actually say anything about it.
 

crazyrabbits

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Kipiru said:
100% of those surveys were made with the clear goal of showing the dislike of the game.
Actually, the first (and, so far, biggest) poll that came out after the game simply had the title "Do you want a better ending?" The author (as far as I know) never intended it to be a "hit piece", but a general gauge of where the hardcore community was at. In every poll I've personally seen thereafter, whether positive- or -negative slanted, there has been a clear majority of votes that asked to fix the game and/or expressed disappointment in one way or another.

In my mind that means that such surveys and forums would attract almost entirely people who are looking to vent their dissappointment with the game and so do not represent in any way the degree to which the game was received by the majority of players.
I'll tell you this much: up here in Canada, we typically get polling during election seasons by Ipsos-Reid, a nationally-recognized surveying/consulting firm that is hired by just about everyone to ensure fair and balanced polling. They ask similar questions to the original poll ("How satisfied were you with x?", "Did you feel that x was not up to standard?"). They would kill for a poll that has 100,000 votes. There are so few polls that have a response of that magnitude, outside politics, that it's an anomaly.

100,000 votes of anything, with such a clear majority, shows you a near-universal trend for a question, product or service.

I don't know of anywhere, that the amount of people expressing dislike with the game to go above the number you gave 100,000.
Because it's exactly that - one poll. Of the other information I've read about the game over the last few months (judging from responses by people who actually work in the stat industry, and as I mentioned earlier in this post), the consumer confidence for the ME brand has fallen roughly 40% between March and October. Add to that the general trend that one vote represents 10X its value in word-of-mouth/referral, and you start to see where the general discontent of the game comes from.

Every anecdotal piece of evidence seen over the last year supports this notion. Gamestop was reporting a record number of returns for the game (and its unit price dropped sharply -in half - soon after release, which is almost unheard of). The DLC sales are, according to those who actually track the XBox and PSN charts, nowhere near what they were for ME1 or ME2. The Mass Effect Trilogy rerelease was a complete dud in terms of sales, despite having a big marketing push. The sales, if we're to take VGChartz as gospel, shows that 3 did better than ME1 but worse than ME2 in lifetime sales to date, which is not good considering EA made a massive marketing push and had the same time spent in development.

Most of the people that have played the game are happy with it
Ah, yes, the mystical "silent majority". A standard fallacy. If there was some hidden percentage of people that enjoyed the game and wanted to see it succeed, we would have seen them out in force by now. It's nine months later, and the backlash still hasn't died down, even from new fans of the series.

As I mentioned, the consumer confidence in the ME brand has dropped almost 40% over the last six months. That is nowhere close to being a "minority". In fact, the same source (an analyst on the HTL forum) mentioned that not only is confidence down, but every official Bioware channel has seen its userbase dwindle over the preceding months, and that the majority demographic (according to posts on forums, sales and the like) now skews much, much younger that it was previously - it's now in the 13-18 range, whereas previously it was in the 18-30 demographic.

If anything, the fact that EA has clearly intended (both in their branding and general design philosophy) to make their games skew to a younger audience has clearly backfired. Most of the interest, if the sources are to be believed, are coming from schoolkids who log in from school computers - nice if you're gunning for the CoD crowd, but a misnomer in terms of its translation to actual sales value.

Hell, you don't have to look further than this forum. I've mentioned this before, and no one seems to have a retort. A year ago, this was the unofficial "ME love-in" - you couldn't find a single person who outright hated the series. Now, every post on this site, even if they legitimately enjoyed the game, has to qualify it with "well, the ending sucked, but..." That's cognitive dissonance in full effect, and shows that the fanbase, from what we can see online, is irrevocably fractured. There is no minority about it - it's a full-fledged "base breaker", to quote TVTropes.
 

Kipiru

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crazyrabbits said:
...Hell, you don't have to look further than this forum. I've mentioned this before, and no one seems to have a retort. A year ago, this was the unofficial "ME love-in" - you couldn't find a single person who outright hated the series. Now, every post on this site, even if they legitimately enjoyed the game, has to qualify it with "well, the ending sucked, but..." That's cognitive dissonance in full effect, and shows that the fanbase, from what we can see online, is irrevocably fractured. There is no minority about it - it's a full-fledged "base breaker", to quote TVTropes.
Right, I know when I've lost an argument, so I'm backing out. Still I feel, all this hate is overhyped and blown out of proportion.
 

DioWallachia

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RTSnab said:
Honestly, I find that being able to enjoy a game in of itself is far better than "needing" some sort of story.
But when the game has the delucion of thinking that its better than others becaue of the story (a selling point) or that its moving the medium foward with its "artistic statement", then someone will take a look at it to see if its true or not. In this case it failed but refuses to admit it, and apparently so its the fanbase.

If you want pure gameplay and no story, then you may as well play Intrusion 2 or Alien Soldier for the Sega Genesis (made by Treasure,the ones that made Gunstar Heroes)
 

Theminimanx

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Mar 14, 2011
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j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
The entire plot for ME3 was leaked a few months before the game was released, and everyone went nuts over how terrible it was.
I never did take a look at that. Could you give me a short summary of what was different in the original ME3 story?
 

DioWallachia

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This is the second fucking time i have to write all over again because the escapist fucked up with the 404 error message. Hope that i manage to capture what i said before

Kipiru said:
First things first, I agree on the remark about the all-proof shield statement, but it's not my point to be simply stubborn. You say give you proof in the form of surveys and forums, but I would immediately lose that battle for a very simple reason. 100% of those surveys were made with the clear goal of showing the dislike of the game. In my mind that means that such surveys and forums would attract almost entirely people who are looking to vent their dissappointment with the game and so do not represent in any way the degree to which the game was received by the majority of players. Let's look at the figures, these can be checked: in March alone the game sold over 1.5milion copies, by now that number has doubled at least. I don't know of anywhere, that the amount of people expressing dislike with the game to go above the number you gave 100,000. That leaves a lot of people out there that have at least a 50/50 chance of like or dislike of ME3. I admit I'm judging from my own comunity, but I do believe this is a general pattern.
You do realise that you shoot yourself in the foot, right? The game released on March made 1.5 Millions, so what? by that time, people didnt know the game sucked and the word of mouth didnt spread yet. And do not forget that since the game was "streamlined" into appeal the COD fans that EA adores so much (and that are incapable of objective observation) and the game no longer is the cerebral RPG that was on the first game, it was bound to bring more suckers into the honey before they realised that there was nothing to feed on. Also, there were fans that really believed that ME3 would fix all the problems ME2 had with its non existent plot.........to no vail.

And you end up saying that only NOW, after 9 months, the game managed to sell the double of the launch numbers. Because that doesnt scream "it sucks" doesnt it? with the sheer ammount of word of mouth and Youtube lets plays, they can know if the game is worth a damn.

Lets face it, using the numbers to say that something is good, makes other crap like Twilight, The Madden Series and Scientology books that are constantly being bought over by the people that made them in order to achieve "best seller" status and sucker people into buying it, to be considered good.

Most of the people that have played the game are happy with it, while a small number is not and half of those are parroting what they've seen in the web and are simply trying to hop on the proverbial band wagon. The ones that liked the game show none to very little desire to go on the web and try to counter the negative feedback by saying "What do you mean someone didn't like it? So what?". Adding all this up, in my mind, leaves me with the conclusion that those vocal few, who have shown their dislike, is about the actual number(or pretty close of people who have issues with the game. And that leaves millions of people who, in the very worst have no issue big enough, with ME3 to actually say anything about it.
Did they objectively look at the narrative to see if their choices really mattered? or they just didnt care? maybge they played for the forced romances or maybe they liked the shooting galleries that would make Final Fantasy XII and Gears of War jealous.

Or how about this WORSE implication? what if the gamers that played didnt like it but FEAR that games will never be art if they complain?? after all, the journalist keep telling them that they "dont get it" and that they are entitled, and when a lie gets bigger then more people believe it.

Raise your hard everyone here on the forum!! who really feel like not saying anything for fear of destroing the "art" that Mass Effect 3 represents because people tell you it is??
 

DioWallachia

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crazyrabbits said:
Most of the people that have played the game are happy with it
Ah, yes, the mystical "silent majority". A standard fallacy. If there was some hidden percentage of people that enjoyed the game and wanted to see it succeed, we would have seen them out in force by now. It's nine months later, and the backlash still hasn't died down, even from new fans of the series.

As I mentioned, the consumer confidence in the ME brand has dropped almost 40% over the last six months. That is nowhere close to being a "minority". In fact, the same source (an analyst on the HTL forum) mentioned that not only is confidence down, but every official Bioware channel has seen its userbase dwindle over the preceding months, and that the majority demographic (according to posts on forums, sales and the like) now skews much, much younger that it was previously - it's now in the 13-18 range, whereas previously it was in the 18-30 demographic.

If anything, the fact that EA has clearly intended (both in their branding and general design philosophy) to make their games skew to a younger audience has clearly backfired. Most of the interest, if the sources are to be believed, are coming from schoolkids who log in from school computers - nice if you're gunning for the CoD crowd, but a misnomer in terms of its translation to actual sales value.
Of course they HAD to bring the COD and younger audience with ME3. Since they never played anything meaningful in their lives before nor know any better about objective observation, they got sucked into thinking that it was good. And if they complain, well they are just "entitled" that dont know shit compared to the MAGNIFICIENT CASEY HUDSON? AND MAC WALTERS?!! OH MIGHTY GODS OF GAMES AS ART, SPARE US FROM THY WRATH AND WE SHALL OBEY YOU!! WE DIDNT KNOW BETTER FOR WE ARE ENTITLED AND THUS WRONG FOR QUESTIONING WHAT IS PAINFULLY WRONG IN EVERY LEVEL!! WE ARE NOT WORTHY OF BEING FAVORED WITH YOUR WISDOM ON WHAT IS "SO VIDEO-GAMEY" AND WHAT ISNT.
 

Kipiru

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DioWallachia said:
This is the second fucking time i have to write all over again because the escapist fucked up with the 404 error message. Hope that i manage to capture what i said before
....

Raise your hard everyone here on the forum!! who really feel like not saying anything for fear of destroing the "art" that Mass Effect 3 represents because people tell you it is??
I guess you didn't notice because of your problems with the site, but I acknowledged my loss of this argument to "crazyrabbits" and sorry to say this to you, but your arguments are quite inferior to his. I couldn't be bothered to give you an answer to everything you write is wrong with my post, but let me at least tell you that neither I nor the people I speak of have ever even come close to CoD or have experienced fear of whatever. You keep throwing your personal dissappointments as if they are fact- the action I find great as well as the balance of RPG elments, I think my choices mattered enough and none of the romances felt anything, but intiguing along with the rest of the plot, I liked the endings and I really enjoy the DLCs. I've never once felt that some outside forse is pushing me to like this. All those things, I believe, are up to the player's taste, so you pointing them out makes little to no sense in this argument.

DioWallachia said:
Of course they HAD to bring the COD and younger audience with ME3. Since they never played anything meaningful in their lives before nor know any better about objective observation, they got sucked into thinking that it was good. And if they complain, well they are just "entitled" that dont know shit compared to the MAGNIFICIENT CASEY HUDSON? AND MAC WALTERS?!! OH MIGHTY GODS OF GAMES AS ART, SPARE US FROM THY WRATH AND WE SHALL OBEY YOU!! WE DIDNT KNOW BETTER FOR WE ARE ENTITLED AND THUS WRONG FOR QUESTIONING WHAT IS PAINFULLY WRONG IN EVERY LEVEL!! WE ARE NOT WORTHY OF BEING FAVORED WITH YOUR WISDOM ON WHAT IS "SO VIDEO-GAMEY" AND WHAT ISNT.
You sure sound like a spoiled brat right about now- cool it CoD boy. We get it- you dont like spunkgargleweewees. Nobody does!
 

DioWallachia

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RTSnab said:
A game can't have a delusion of anything, cause it's a piece of software. yea....

I don't know how much better than anything else the marketing claimed it could be, or how artistic it would be, since I didn't keep up with the advertisements. I played it cause it was the last installment of the Mass Effect series, and as the last game, its goal was to escalate the stakes and have better gameplay. It did both of those 2 things, so I thought it was a great game. There was never a moment that I could remember where I wasn't having some kind of fun, therefore it did its job. I don't care what the fanbase thinks, since I never bothered to ask any of them in the first place.

Again, I bought the game to experience a new take on sci fi, play around with some high tech weapons, and play as the badass commander of a starship.
The general consensus is that if a work has a purpose and fails at it then......it fails (duh). However, people like you can still find it enjoyable or useful even when technically it misses its mark and true objective, that is not a problem. The problem lies on people saying that its good for unrelated reasons, like saying that The Mona Lisa is good art because when i burn the picture, it makes green colored flames and burns brighter than wood, therefore its good art.

If you wanted to play a Sci Fi Space Opera then play Star Control 2: The Ur-Quan Masters. The game that inspired Mass Effect in 1992.
 

Tumedus

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I have kind of spent my ire on this topic but I can safely say that my disappointment in the title, and it goes beyond just the ending, has not diminished.

I used to play the original Mass Effect about once every 6 months or so, maybe just to see 1 or 2 decisions done differently or make a new character concept. ME3 was so bad that it killed even that appeal for me. Knowing that none of those decisions matter and that it is impossible to translate that character concept into the 3rd chapter (there are literally only 2 character types that work in part 3) kills my desire to play what used to be one of my favorite games of all time.

It that way its something special. It takes a special kind of bad to have the shittiness of one installment retroactively diminish the previous.