Satinavian said:
ObsidianJones said:
We had a race flipped Othello with Patrick Stewart [http://www.playbill.com/article/patrick-stewart-stars-in-race-reversed-othello-in-dc-nov-17-com-72158].
The whole cast was flipped there. Which means mostly traditionally white roles played buy black actors with Steward the sole exception. That is a theatre trying to gimmick up a performance but certainly not a caase of whitewashing.
I know. I specially said it was a race flipped Othello. I didn't call it white washing.
We had Major Kusanagi [https://www.tor.com/2016/04/20/why-are-we-still-white-washing-characters/]
Which was far more controversal than the mermaid or the nordic god or whatever.
And similar is true for most of the rest of the list. Either i have never heard about the production/source at all or people where extremely unhappy about that casting (Do you remember the rage about Avatar ?)
Umm. Yeah, that's actually a perception. You would have to have some type of Metric to quantify that. If you do have one, we can measure it and discern that.
I'm actually going to put in a pin for that for your next point.
Sarcasm aside, when it's a white person who takes a minority role, certain people come by and say that we should not think of anything but the story and it isn't a big deal. When a minority takes over a white role, Those same 'certain people' come through on a tear complaining that Diversity has gone too far and nothing is sacred any more.
Those people likely exist. But they seem to be quite rare compared to the "it does not match the source"-crowd (which is quite big for any IP that has a fandom to speak of) and the "get over it, it is a new interpretation and those are good actors" crowd.
Ok, pin taken out.
This point of view seems to be based on perception as well. You came up with a measurement of "Quite rare" without sourcing anything to give that stat. That's exactly the same as disproving an opinion. It's based on made up thoughts without any true way of measuring. Yes, I can definitely say Pepperoni is the Best topping for pizza and that everyone knows it. I can have people dissent, and I can say "Sure, a few people do as well. But it's quite rare".
Ignoring the mounds of people who like plain, BBQ chicken, bacon, onions, and/or pineapple.
Meanwhile, I'm addressing a certain group of people. My focus is on that. I understand the source material people. And I didn't mention them because that isn't an arguable act. Trying to convince people that a segment of the population will be harmed because a character is race swapped is.
And to quickly answer your nitpicking.
The first game was based on ancient Persia. I invite you to look at the Front [https://www.mobygames.com/images/covers/l/187798-prince-of-persia-atari-st-front-cover.jpg] and Back [https://www.mobygames.com/images/covers/l/313705-prince-of-persia-apple-ii-back-cover.jpg] cover art of the game and think about maybe it was a graphical choice made based on the limit palette they had to deal with back in the 1989's.
Khan was apart of a Eugenics program that featured Selective Breeding and Genetic Augmentations. I've never seen splicing. He's specifically from Northern India. It was in the script [http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/24.htm], by the way.
MCCOY: We've triggered something, all right. His heart beat's increasing. Now passing eight beats per minute. There are some signs of respiration beginning.
SCOTT: This one was probably programmed to be triggered first.
KIRK: Could he be the leader? The leader. Lieutenant?
MARLA: (dragging herself back from just gazing at the man) Yes, sir. The leader was often set to revive first. This would allow him to decide whether the conditions warranted revival of the others.
MCCOY: Heart beat now approaching forty per minute. The respiration pattern is firming up.
MARLA: From the northern India area, I'd guess. Probably a Sikh. They were the most fantastic warriors.
MCCOY: Heart beat now fifty two and increasing.
KIRK: The others?
SCOTT: There's no change, and they're mixed types. Western, mid-European, Latin, Oriental.
MARLA: A man from the twentieth century coming alive.
MCCOY: Maybe. Heart beat dropping.
KIRK: Circuit shorting.
SCOTT: Probably some dust.
MCCOY: Heartbeat now thirty, dropping fast. It's a heart flutter. He's dying.
MARLA: Do something, Captain.
KIRK: Can we?
SCOTT: It'd take an hour to figure it out.
KIRK: What happens if we get him out of there?
MCCOY: He'll die in seconds if we don't.
(Kirk uses something metal in his hand to break the glass and open the compartment. The man is slid out on a trolley, gasping and awake. He tries to speak.)
KHAN: How long?
Two. I have two. Ben Affleck's character in Argo, and Emma Stone's character in Aloha.
Batou667 said:
Hey, we're a community after all. We don't have to agree, just get along.
Yes I do, and I acknowledged it. My point was that they can't simultaneously be compelling arguments FOR black Ariel and at the same time ammunition to blast the "racists" arguing for white Ariel to remain unchanged.
That's your take on it. I think I fairly shown that they both can be used. Whether you agree on it, that's another thing. But I shown that they both could be used.
Dude, I sympathise and I accept there was/is an inequality. But let's not overstate the case to the point of dishonesty, OK? Unless you were reading comics in the 60s or earlier then you WOULD have seen black heroes. Not major heroes, I'll grant you, typically they were supporting or ensemble cast members. But black heroes have been appearing in comics and cartoons since the 70s.
What exactly did I overstate, really? I just told you my own experiences as a child. I thought I couldn't be a hero because I was black. I thought I couldn't survive because the black guy dies. To say I'm overstating my life experience is... baffling.
You're misrepresenting me. I'm saying "diversity shouldn't be achieved by simplistic quick fixes like sex- or race-swapping", you're hearing "everything's fine and should never change".
Actually, what I'm hearing is this.
Firstly the effective retconning of the last 30 years of Little Mermaid. That is sure to annoy, if not exactly upset, many fans.
Secondly, much is made of the need for characters children will associate with. Great, little back girls now have one extra princess they can dress up as at Halloween. Spare a thought for the little red-headed girls though; all they have is that girl from Brave now, and nobody wants to be her.
I won't deny, I've seen you say that. I've seen you say that up and down this thread. But Your Little Red-Headed girls are just as important as these up and coming little Black girls. I'll spare a thought for both.
And you're right. There should be representation for both. For all. But when I hear 'spare a thought for people who were already well represented', I tend to side with the ones who didn't get that same representation. It's a character flaw, I'll admit.
ObsidianJones said:
You conflate "having some representation" as "more important".
Not true. I wish, I just WISH, people would read the words I type and take them at face value instead of running away with a narrative of their own making. I've said multiple times that I think representation is important, and that I hope we achieve MORE, and MORE DIVERSE, representation, by expanding the set of characters, settings, and stories being told.
But you know what, evidently somebody (a whole room of somebodies, as I said before) decided it was "more important" to make Ariel black than to keep her white. There are obvious pros and cons for this; there are benefits to keeping Ariel white and there are benefits to making her black. People will have met, discussed, weighed up these two competing sets of benefits. And they evidently found it was "more important" to make Ariel black. Unless you think a multi-billion dollar, global corporation like Disney makes these kind of decisions by flipping a coin?
The problem is, I am reading your words.
Batou667 said:
Representation is important for black and ethnic minority kids. It should logically follow that representation is important for white kids too.
It's not crucial for a character to exactly fit the same demographics of a white kid for them to be able to identify with them and enjoy the story. This should then apply to minority kids too, right?
I feel like the elephant in the room here is that everyone has decided that these considerations of principle, of what's good for the goose being good for the gander, of providing a level playing field - has all been discarded because "we" have decided that minority rights are more important. If it feels progressive or will please a historically marginalised group, then make the change, end of. Remarkably, I think Saelune gave one of the most honest contributions to this discussion: changing an established character is annoying, it messes with the canon, it upsets the fans, but it's gotta be done because White Man's Burden.
This is what I'm responding to. I agree that equal representation is healty for any child to grow up. I know that. You know that. But the difference is that I know that a Black Ariel doesn't remove from white kids representation. Not only is there a ton of other things coming down the pipeline with people that will look just like them, once again, Black Ariel does not remove Red-Head Ariel from Canon. Black kids aren't suddenly more represented that white kids. If a rain drop his a puddle, and doesn't go to the ocean, yeah, the puddle had one more drop of water... but it's still a puddle compared to the damn ocean.
Also, I already put up a list here about how common it's done for minorities. Not only in fiction, but in real life.
The most telling thing of all that I didn't want to touch at the time, but fuck it, in for a penny, in for a pound.
You do know the 'White Man's Burden [http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5478/]' is from a Kipling Poem, right? It was used for a way to incite people to try to go along with Annexing the Phillipines. The White Man's Burden is to bring 'civilization' to those backwards enough not to have the inherent majesty of the White Man's Culture.
The Burden is 'Oh, how terrible is it to be so great and having to rid those backwards non-whites of their foolish ways'.
I'm sure you meant it in a different way, but you should know the origins of the terms you use.
And lastly, no need for unnecessary digs at Saelune. There's nothing remarkable about Saelune giving honest contributions. That's a regular thing.
We're going "meta" now, bear with me. You've heard of microaggressions, right? For a long time I assumed that was a coded way of minority groups tacitly admitting that the stuff annoying them was no longer a matter of life and death, or even outright hostility, but just first world problems like airplane seats not being designed for 600lb backsides or "flesh-coloured" band-aids not exactly matching your skin tone. My outlook on this has changed somewhat in the last few years and I now accept that some groups experience a background hum of suspicion, or hostility, or deprecation that plays out in a myriad of little ways in everyday life. It's my contention that "historically privileged" groups like males and white people are waking up the to the fact that they experience this too. A little inequality here. A small injustice (for the greater good, naturally) there. Another "dopey dad" trope going unchallenged in the media. Another "woke" columnist being applauded for saying "y'all whypipo is the devil" in 500 words. And, yeah, another character swapped out for an underrepresented gender or race, and if we don't clap and honk like seals we get called "angry internet racists" by Buzzfeed. At the end of the day, my beef is not about a gosh darn fictional mermaid - but it's emblematic.
You think I'm part of a small minority on this? That's the kind of hubris that got Trump elected in 2016. Don't believe for a minute that only a hardcore fringe could possibly disagree with you.
Here's the real problem again.
Minorities are still the puddle. White People are still the ocean in terms of representation and allocation of power. A few people wanted to add to the puddle for some reason and took a water can and poured it's contents into the Puddle. People who are for the ocean saw this and got enraged. They got fleets and fleets of water tankers, drained Lake Ontario and poured it into the Ocean... not realizing it's somewhat foolhardy as Lake Ontario is connected to the Ocean already.
THAT'S the thinking that got Trump Elected.
You have to understand something as something who's feeling repressed. It's up to you to figure out if you want to help the situation, or react to it.
With that comment about Trump, it's feeling like you're leaning towards reaction. That doesn't help. I once called myself a Black Militant back during the days of the Movie 'X'. I grew up in the ghetto. I saw the injustice and what people do when they have no other options. I wanted to speak out. I wanted to fight. People needed to know.
And they still do. You know what the problem is? People stopped listening after 'Black Militant'. Anyone who's reading this has an idea of what that term means, and tuned their attention accordingly. That's what happens when you have strong feelings and you reach for a strong reaction. The reaction might feel comfortable to house your strong feelings, but it doesn't mean it's the right action to take to effect change. We're feeling that with Trump.
As hard as it might be believed, I don't want anyone eroded. No culture, No Gender, no creed, no religion, no lack of religion. I don't want anything to happen to white people. This world would be lessened if that would to happen. As it would be for any race. Reaction is just to make other people's sorry for their actions, or to make one feel better about what they believed happen to them.
If we want change, we can't go out and try to hurt others. No matter how we perceive things. We have to always bring ourselves to the table, no matter how bruised and bloodied our egos are. And we need to talk. Without name calling, without hurt feelings, without trying to get back. We want to share this world. So we have to work for it with open hearts and minds. Some things we have to give. Because we simply can't share this world if we keep saying "But this is mine and no one else can have it".
