"Paying a monthly Fee is stupid" - No..no it's not.

[Eclectic Dreck]

When you pay for a regular game you get a certain amount of content for a certain amount of money. Let's take Dragon Age for Example. If you do everything in the game once, you get about 40-50 hours of gameplay. Yes you can replay it, but for the most part, there is only 40-50 hours of new content. So if the game costs $50, that's a dollar per hour of gameplay.

Rather than getting into a cost per unit of gameplay debate (which will rarely find traction as people have wildly different value judgments in such affairs), it is better to look at it from the business side. Server clusters, bandwidth, housing costs, administrators, GM's and all the various stuff it takes to simply keep a game online is expensive. Beyond that there are the tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars spent simply developing the game in the first place. Sure, initial purchases might cover the initial costs of development and infrastructure acquisition but MMO providers face recurring fees from the above plus additional development (bug fixes, additional content, balance changes) costs after the game is launched.

One is certainly free to find the exchange unpalatable of course, but the simple fact is that MMO's need a constant stream of revenue. Every game that qualifies for this space does something to get money after the initial purchase, be it with microtransactions (LOTRO, Maple Story), regular mandatory paid updates (Guild Wars), or a recurring monthly fee (WoW, Eve).

 

[Echo136]

Whenever I'm reading articles about MMOs or topics about MMOs on this forum I always see some familiar words.

"This game looks cool, but I'm not paying $15 to play a game I already bought."

"15 Dollars a month!!! That's ridiculous, I paid for the game once, let me play it!!"

"MMOS are Ripoffs!!"

"LOSERS!! PAYEING $$$ TO PL4Y a GAEM. U AINT L33T!"



Are these people that mathematically challenged?


When you pay for a regular game you get a certain amount of content for a certain amount of money. Let's take Dragon Age for Example. If you do everything in the game once, you get about 40-50 hours of gameplay. Yes you can replay it, but for the most part, there is only 40-50 hours of new content. So if the game costs $50, that's a dollar per hour of gameplay.

Now if you take an MMO, you have hundreds and hundreds of hours of gameplay. PvP, crafting, leveling, raiding, etc. Even if you only play a couple days a week, the dollar per gameplay hour ratio is way way way higher than a normal game.


So the "Ripoff" that people claim is not even close to true. The sad thing about this is that companies are taking advantage of this stupidity and going with "free to play" games. This gets the anti-monthly fee guys addicted to a game because it's free, and then charge them crazy prices for in game items and gold.

So the people who were against paying money for an mmo now end up paying potentially more money for an inferior game ruined by micro-transactions.


So before you complain about other people paying a monthly fee for a game. Do the math.

The whole idea of subscription based gaming is evil. When I had WoW, every moment of every day I was thinking, "If Im not playing this game right now, Im wasting that $15 I spent to play it this month." Thus I became a shut in and played the game damn near 20 hours a day every day. Its that horrifying. Fuck online subscriptions. And you may think "Its only $15." Not everyone can afford luxaries. I was still fresh out of high school and barely even had a job.

 

[Alorxico]

"I'm not paying $15 a month to play a game I all ready bought!"

Umm, you do realize that you do EXACTLY that, paying to use something you all ready bought, every day, right? Obviously not.

That computer you are running. You bought it, right? But you have to pay the power company to use it, otherwise it is just a very fancy paper weight. That TV you play your video games on also shows you the news and really weird Reality Programs ... but only if you pay the cable company. Nice car you're driving, but unless you pay BP or Shell or Exxon, it is nothing more than really expensive modern art sitting in your driveway.

Yes, these are "necessities" rather than "entertainment", like an MMO, but if your only argument against them is you shouldn't pay to use what you all ready bought, I'm afraid your argument is invalid because you all ready do it.

 

[Crazy_Dude]

From my experience, I'd rather pay a monthly fee. Because most free-to-play MMOs get their money via selling cash shop items for real money. Sooner or later, the game becomes unbalanced and victory is dictated by how many uber cash shop items you have instead of skill or strategy.

I used to Play Rakion a sort of free to play MMO.

The 1st few months were pretty awesome and I even bough a few cash items.

However nowadays it just has become a cash war and who spent the most money into the game. I dont like it like I used to do.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

No one is saying it is not a lot of money on one game but it does cost a lot to run servers for persistent worlds constantly so it is not just making you pay out of nowhere everything needs to be payed for in someway. Ever single server you have ever played on is payed for by someone whether that person is renting it with their own money, running it off their computer or taking subs from a massive pool of people.

OK, maybe back in 2004 MMO scale server structure were expensive but not any more, not $15 per USER per MONTH! Especially not on this scale where of course the economy of scale is so effective, $15 per YEAR is more appropriate.

I mean WoW servers are not particularly high performance, ping is never that good, nor the best tickrate. Linking together a hundred people in one instance isn't too expensive.

The thing is it costs SOMETHING and Blizzard has gotten away with $15 so far, why drop it? Look, people who spend THAT much time in such a time sink are not going to have a problem with $15, my problem isn't really with Blizzard it is with people who are so sad they will play only one game for years at a time. There stooges really, the games is designed to titillate, you won't ever "get bored" as it always promises more... the only way to get out is to have that human spark of wanting MORE!

Thing is people with that much time and money to burn would be far better off running their own server for a game. Yes your OWN SERVER costs as much to rent as a WoW subscription, like a high performance 24-slot Team Fortress 2 server with full admin control and all the perks that come with that.

IF Blizzard were to allow you you you host your own WoW universe and just invite our friends. If you knew and admin you could book a dungeon raid for a fair price.

Well 15 a month isn't that unreasonable it really depends on the size of the user base. You can't just say it is unreasonable in every instance. You aren't just paying for normal server server costs. You also have to pay for proper mods and maintenance. There are updates and balances to consider but if you want ot stick purely to WoW scale then yes it is excessive but a sub is still needed.

Also yes there are economies of scale for Blizzard no one can dispute that but you can't see where all the money is going and state what is a proper amount. Yes a lot does go back into the coffers of the company but it does keep a relative stream of new content for people who actually do like the game and allow funding for other games.

I can't really say what cost or price is good. Although running a TF2 server is a bit different from a WoW or any MMO server given the player load but having subs is a necessary evil for MMOs suggesting otherwise is a bit silly. Yes I know a self made server is probably as a cheap as a WoW sub but it does not give the "MMO feel". It would not be a MMO anymore since that is kinda why Guild Wars one is not considered a MMO. So having a self hosted server with friends defeats the purpose of a MMO. I am not saying it is not feasible but it doesn't fit with the genre.

As well as that my main problem with your original statement is this

The monthly fee is justified by one thing: because they can. It's their network, their servers, they can charge whatever people will pay. WoW is just addictive as hell, so they can and over 10 million do pay.

I am 100% if they could get away with higher subs they would however, the subs aren't just purely there because they are some evil machine that thrives on exploitation. There is a reason for subs. Personally, I think a much better way of charging gamers for playing MMOs if they must use a sub is by the hour. Why I think think this would be a bit better is that if you chose not to play WoW or any other MMO your money for that month is not being wasted. This is probably not the best system but it is a bit more fairer than the month system if that is your problem with it.

 

[Treblaine]

So far, Vindictus = Free to play and much more fun than WoW

The question is... do so many people play WoW even after 7 years because it is "fun"?

I hope Vindictus and all these genuinely fun MMO games knock WoW off the top slot just for the good of my faith in humanity.

 

[siddif]

I normally have problems with ongoing costs (such as contract phones) but I happily have been playing WoW for the fast few years though paying a monthly feed does give me the mentality of getting my moneys worth from it by playing it as much as possible.

My only problem with WoW is the time needed to play it and as I'm a student that time isn't always there so I end up paying for a month of no gameplay from time to time (or briefly cancel my account) and I suspect other people may feel the same about pay to play games.

 

[RedMagic]

From my experience, I'd rather pay a monthly fee. Because most free-to-play MMOs get their money via selling cash shop items for real money. Sooner or later, the game becomes unbalanced and victory is dictated by how many uber cash shop items you have instead of skill or strategy.

I used to Play Rakion a sort of free to play MMO.

The 1st few months were pretty awesome and I even bough a few cash items.

However nowadays it just has become a cash war and who spent the most money into the game. I dont like it like I used to do.

Yeah, that experience is very similar to when I played Granado Espada. It was fun at first, bought a few cash shop items, and then all of a sudden almost everyone bought half a dozen of everything in the shop. PvP and raids will never be the same again.

 

[Treblaine]

Well 15 a month isn't that unreasonable it really depends on the size of the user base. You can't just say it is unreasonable in every instance. You aren't just paying for normal server server costs. You also have to pay for proper mods and maintenance. There are updates and balances to consider but if you want ot stick purely to WoW scale then yes it is excessive but a sub is still needed.

Huh? Still no where near $15 per-user per-month especially considering a HUGE install base one patch serves millions.

Also are you saying you need a subscription fee for FIXING PROBLEMS! No, when you buy the game you expect it to work, you shouldn't have to pay extra just to get it working well

Also yes there are economies of scale for Blizzard no one can dispute that but you can't see where all the money is going and state what is a proper amount. Yes a lot does go back into the coffers of the company but it does keep a relative stream of new content for people who actually do like the game and allow funding for other games.

I can't really say what cost or price is good. Although running a TF2 server is a bit different from a WoW or any MMO server given the player load but having subs is a necessary evil for MMOs suggesting otherwise is a bit silly. Yes I know a self made server is probably as a cheap as a WoW sub but it does not give the "MMO feel". It would not be a MMO anymore since that is kinda why Guild Wars one is not considered a MMO. So having a self hosted server with friends defeats the purpose of a MMO. I am not saying it is not feasible but it doesn't fit with the genre.

As well as that my main problem with your original statement is this

The monthly fee is justified by one thing: because they can. It's their network, their servers, they can charge whatever people will pay. WoW is just addictive as hell, so they can and over 10 million do pay.

I am 100% if they could get away with higher subs they would however, the subs aren't just purely there because they are some evil machine that thrives on exploitation. There is a reason for subs. Personally, I think a much better way of charging gamers for playing MMOs if they must use a sub is by the hour. Why I think think this would be a bit better is that if you chose not to play WoW or any other MMO your money for that month is not being wasted. This is probably not the best system but it is a bit more fairer than the month system if that is your problem with it.

Part of the reason WoW is so addictive - I think - is you pay for it in monthly or yearly blocks... there is then INCENTIVE to play the game, otherwise one might think they'd be wasting their money. if there was a constantly ticking timer, seeing the pennies fritter away with every passing minute that's huge monetary incentive to log off sooner an play a game you've already bought.

 

[No_Remainders]

Now if you take an MMO, you have hundreds and hundreds of hours of gameplay. PvP, crafting, leveling, raiding, etc. Even if you only play a couple days a week, the dollar per gameplay hour ratio is way way way higher than a normal game..

Or you could buy Guild Wars and still have hundreds and hundreds of hours of gameplay with.. OH LOOK! A single payment.

Or you could play one of the EXACT WoW clones for free and pay nothing for a few hundred hours.

Let's also take a look to see if your statistics of "A couple of days a week" thing being correct, taking a standard monthly payment as being ?15.

I'll compare to... MW2! I got a good year's gaming out of that. A total of... Hold on, checking stats... 24 days, 3 hours and 46 minutes (almost 580 hours) out of that in a single year. Playing 4 times a week. I paid 40 euro for it.

Now, let's compare playing 4 times a week on WoW, at 15 euro a week. Say, you play for... 9 hours a week? You'd have to play for 64.4444 (let's just say 65) weeks to get the same amount of gameplay. 65 weeks, eh? Taking it at 4 weeks in a month that's 16.25 months. So to play for 16.25 months, one would need 17 monthly subscriptions, racking up a total of... Oh, look 255 euro.

So no, you are wrong. That bullshit of the "Money to gameplay hour ratio being higher" is bullshit.

 

[Caliostro]

certain amount of content for a certain amount of money. Let's take Dragon Age for Example. If you do everything in the game once, you get about 40-50 hours of gameplay. Yes you can replay it, but for the most part, there is only 40-50 hours of new content. So if the game costs $50, that's a dollar per hour of gameplay.

Now if you take an MMO, you have hundreds and hundreds of hours of gameplay. PvP, crafting, leveling, raiding, etc. Even if you only play a couple days a week, the dollar per gameplay hour ratio is way way way higher than a normal game.

Assuming you have no life of any kind (work, student, or social), and play 24 hours a day. A much more reasonable average is around 10 to 20 hours a week, give or take. So that's around 2 to 5 weeks, doing a rather lax average.

Since we're talking about MMOs, we're therefore talking about online games. Last online game I bought was Monday Night Combat. It cost me 10 bucks and I have 140 hours on it. Team Fortress 2 cost me... fuck all, since I bought it a year or two ago, NOT on a sale, for around 25/30 bucks for all 5 games. 1230 hours in. Mount&Blade I got for 7.50 and I logged on 82 hours... Etc. And this is all assuming continuous play. Bad Company 2 I got for the full pre-order price (roughly 50 bucks), and I've logged in 299 hours.

I also have the advantage that if I wanna log in after a month to play ANY of those, I don't have to fork over 10-15 extra bucks for it.

The hilarious part? Most of the "top tier" MMOs actually make you pay for the monthly fees AND the retail purchase of the product. And that's not even accounting for games that might follow the WoW model that makes you pay for retail purchase + expansions + monthly fees.

AAAAAAAND, and I can accept that this point is more subjective, I generally buy my games based on quality first, and replay value second. Portal 2 is one of my favorite games ever, and easily some of the best money ever spent, and it's only 3 hours long for a first playthrough. I can currently finish it in 30 minutes to an hour if I don't waste too much time dicking around. My problem with MMOs is that I have yet to see one that's more than a statistic simulator... I can calculate all the results of any match up accurately (predicting no one in it is mentally challenged) before I even play them. It's basically a statistics simulator with fireworks. If I wanted statistics I'd pull out my trusty Texas Instruments. I could, potentially, consider playing a P2P game, but the quality would have to be REALLLLLLYYY high to justify the massive cash investment.

Which brings us to my ultimate point: It's all about subjective value. If you want to compare possible replay value for your dollar, it's not a competition. No subscription wins every single time if only because the overtime cost of an MMO will inevitably move towards infinite. But that's not why people play games is it? It's all about quality. It's all about how much you enjoy the game, and feel that it was worth the money you paid for it. To people who think WoW is better than sex, monthly subscriptions are totally worth it. People have sunk in thousands of dollars in these MMOs... To me, I'd rather stick hot needles in my eyes than touch that crap. I'd much rather spend 50 bucks on high quality game that'll last me 10-30ish hours of some seriously good fun than as much as a cent on that crap. To people who love MMOs, this is most likely unthinkable.

It's all about the quality you attribute to the experience more than the amount of the experience.

So yeah, to me you're being criminally rip off.

 

[Fusionxl]

Just to clarify a few things that I saw pop up in the thread:

1. EVE Online expansions are free. It costs 20 bucks to get started and 15 a month from there. About two years ago we got a complete graphics overhaul and this summer we'll get walking in stations. No extra fees for anything.

2. In EVE you can pay for your subscription with things called Pilot Licence Extention ( or "PLEX" ) cards. Someone buys a PLEX card for real life money and sells it to you ingame for game money. Once you activate it you get 30 days of gametime added to your account. I've been playing for over 4 years and for the last 3.5 I haven't paid a single penny. As a poor student I tend to have lots of free time, but not much money to spend

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

Well 15 a month isn't that unreasonable it really depends on the size of the user base. You can't just say it is unreasonable in every instance. You aren't just paying for normal server server costs. You also have to pay for proper mods and maintenance. There are updates and balances to consider but if you want ot stick purely to WoW scale then yes it is excessive but a sub is still needed.

Huh? Still no where near $15 per-user per-month especially considering a HUGE install base one patch serves millions.

Also are you saying you need a subscription fee for FIXING PROBLEMS! No, when you buy the game you expect it to work, you shouldn't have to pay extra just to get it working well

Also yes there are economies of scale for Blizzard no one can dispute that but you can't see where all the money is going and state what is a proper amount. Yes a lot does go back into the coffers of the company but it does keep a relative stream of new content for people who actually do like the game and allow funding for other games.

I can't really say what cost or price is good. Although running a TF2 server is a bit different from a WoW or any MMO server given the player load but having subs is a necessary evil for MMOs suggesting otherwise is a bit silly. Yes I know a self made server is probably as a cheap as a WoW sub but it does not give the "MMO feel". It would not be a MMO anymore since that is kinda why Guild Wars one is not considered a MMO. So having a self hosted server with friends defeats the purpose of a MMO. I am not saying it is not feasible but it doesn't fit with the genre.

As well as that my main problem with your original statement is this

The monthly fee is justified by one thing: because they can. It's their network, their servers, they can charge whatever people will pay. WoW is just addictive as hell, so they can and over 10 million do pay.

I am 100% if they could get away with higher subs they would however, the subs aren't just purely there because they are some evil machine that thrives on exploitation. There is a reason for subs. Personally, I think a much better way of charging gamers for playing MMOs if they must use a sub is by the hour. Why I think think this would be a bit better is that if you chose not to play WoW or any other MMO your money for that month is not being wasted. This is probably not the best system but it is a bit more fairer than the month system if that is your problem with it.

Part of the reason WoW is so addictive - I think - is you pay for it in monthly or yearly blocks... there is then INCENTIVE to play the game, otherwise one might think they'd be wasting their money. if there was a constantly ticking timer, seeing the pennies fritter away with every passing minute that's huge monetary incentive to log off sooner an play a game you've already bought.

Yes one patch does serve millions and that is the problem. One patch or balance can have serious reprecussions throughout the whole game. There needs to be many hours of testing done on it and that costs money. Once again I have no idea how much one would spend on this so I can't say what is fair to pay per month. There needs to be much more checking done on this than say CoD. Balancing a weapon in CoD is not able adversely affect the game as changing a common farming build. That has massive ripples throughout the whole game economy. Now I have no idea how familiar you are with Guild Wars but the Droknars Troll Farming build is a perfect example of this. If you want you can ask for details but it is not too relevant to this argument.

Just to say I am not really talking about fixing simple problems. I am talking about the balancing act that is keeping a MMO in equilibrium. You do need to pay for full time moderation especially with a player base like WoW.

Anyway to use Guild Wars again I have sunk 1,500 hours into it and I had no sub incentive. I am just trying to put forward a more fair system. If you have better ideas I am open to them. I don't think that it is purely because they payed subs for everyone.

 

[kane.malakos]

My main problem with subscription fees is this: It encourages the developers to pad their games and have gameplay that is addictive but not necessarily fun. As has been pointed out, WOW and most other MMOs survive by keeping the users hooked on them. As soon as a game starts relying on monthly fees they have a huge incentive to use methods which keep the users playing at all costs. The problem is, this doesn't make the game good. It doesn't make the game fun. And it sure as hell doesn't make it worth $180 a year. I suggest checking out the Extra Credits episode "The Skinner Box" if you're interested. They talk a lot about those sorts of tactics.

 

[Sir_Auron_the_Badass]

God I hate this type of complaint. I hear about it quite a bit when I play, or referencing why not to play, WoW, and I facepalm each time. I personally prefer that a bigger MMO have a subscription because:
1) It keeps a lot more whiny kids who don't have credit/debit cards and have firm and/or smart parents from playing and annoying other players.
2) If the game is going to be a success it will need to frequently expand its horizons to keep from getting stale; patch in new content, update old content, fix bugs, etc. This takes the developers time and money to do while still looking for a profit for their effort (that's not evil, it's just good business practice).

 

[Shia-Neko-Chan]

So far, Vindictus = Free to play and much more fun than WoW

The question is... do so many people play WoW even after 7 years because it is "fun"?

I hope Vindictus and all these genuinely fun MMO games knock WoW off the top slot just for the good of my faith in humanity.

Honestly, I'm not sure that'll ever happen. Blizzard did an amazing job with WoW's marketing scheme, so even though the game really isn't the best by a long shot, everyone still flocks straight to it. Sort of like the Wii and Nintendo.

Until someone actually tries to market something new in the same way as WoW, and the gaming industry is usually bad about this,, we won't see anything overthrow it for a long time. =_=

 

[oppp7]

Ya, I realized this a little while ago. I might get into a few more MMOs when I get into the workforce a few years from now.