PC Gaming and Piracy: Must Read Article

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Varchld

is drunk and disorderly.
Nov 8, 2008
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CmdrGoob said:
EzraPound said:
Good point. Wikipedia says 11 million monthly subscribers to world of warcraft.

And yet only 12-15 million frequent PC gamers, EzraPound?
Absolutely; I just strongly suspect that alot of the people who play WoW only use their computers for playing WoW, and, like, one other game (alot are probably console gamers that relish in WoW being one of the few popular, exclusive PC games nowadays) - thusly discluding them from the criteria I suggested, which was contingent upon multiple purchases - because that seems more likely than WoW owners being particularly engaged with the PC market, given that the sales of GOTY-winning titles like Crysis wouldn't suggest a large PC gaming demographic if there was a copy pirated for every one purchased.
Thirdly, you discount WoW's 11 million subscribers on the grounds that you "strongly suspect that alot of the people who play WoW only use their computers for playing WoW". I don't know what makes you suspect this, I know about 10 WoW players and they are all very active PC gamers. I strongly suspect very large segments of the WoW player base are dedicated games; a game like WoW where time and organisation are a big part of the game tends to suggest someone who has more than a passing interest in gaming as a passtime.
Are you kidding?
Do you have any idea how many gold selling companies buy hundreds of accounts and how many people own 2 or 3 or 34 accounts?
Wow is one of the worst measures of the gaming market you can look at.
After taking that into account, you have to consider that my 2 year old computer can run wow without a graphics card (my 5-6 year old server computer can too but does get choppy at times).
"Game capable" computers covers pretty much every computer sold, computers used for gaming are a fractional market.
 

Zer_

Rocket Scientist
Feb 7, 2008
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Does the article take torrents using the same trackers into account? The same torrent on different sites often use the same trackers, which could skew the numbers. I haven't seen anything about trackers mentioned in the article.

I would also like to add that StarForce *did* mess with your DVD Writers. I've lost 2 DVD drives in the span of 1 year after installing a legitimate copy of Chaos Theory (I have the metal box to prove it, too). The first time I had to replace my DVD Writer I gate StarForce the benefit of the doubt. I installed a new DVD Writer and consequently, I re-installed a couple of StarForce games. Then, that 2nd drive went to shit. I write a lot of DVDs, mostly to store game related movies. I think I wrote 7-8 DVDs before I started to encounter problems with Nero. After a while I'd get a ton of failed burn attempts, and sometimes my DVD Writer would just get detected as a regular CD Writer.

Anyways, I replaced that drive, and never installed another StarForce game. My DVD drives have been working fine ever since.
 

jamesworkshop

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Rajin Cajun said:
jamesworkshop said:
My point Cajun is from a business perpective Piracy hurts sales now don't get me wrong if a games bad people have every right to inform others in that case piracy is no different from a Bad review score in a magazine.
Piracy is about getting something for free and those who do know it and thus few will talk about justifying it because they don't feel the need to, if stealing doesn't make you feel bad then you're not going to care about the opinons of people on forums you have never meet.
Q.E.D
Is it not theft to deliver a subquality product while taking someones hard earned cash? I'm sorry but it should be a double edged sword if the Gaming Industry wants to lessen piracy then provide a worthwhile products where I don't feel robbed after installing it.
Erm no it is not theft, if a product is not satisfactory a consumer should have the ability to be refunded and thus this is an issue with retailers not the Development team.
At the Scene level Piracy is about cracking prowess showing off your abiltiy to remove the protection system much like how the demo scene shows off by coding real-time animations on low powered Amiga or Commadore systems not some guerilla warfare aimed at changing the software industry.
Piracy is about not paying when you don't have too.
 

SaintWaldo

Interzone Vagabond
Jun 10, 2008
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EzraPound said:
- Americans who just buy shit because they have high incomes
- Americans who just buy shit so they can play one game (see: EAShit)
- Americans who are pressured by salespeople into buying shit they don't want
- Americans who just buy shit for the PCs in their corporate buildings they don't need
- Americans who just buy 3D shit so they can do anything other than play games
- Anyone other than Americans that just buy shit for the above reasons (see: less)
Hate much? Let me guess, you tend to describe all Americans as bigoted and prone to deal in stereotypes, don't you? And fat. I bet you probably throw fat in there a lot too, am I right?

There's this awesome device called a mirror, perhaps you should look into one.
 

EzraPound

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Jan 26, 2008
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Hate much? Let me guess, you tend to describe all Americans as bigoted and prone to deal in stereotypes, don't you? And fat. I bet you probably throw fat in there a lot too, am I right?

There's this awesome device called a mirror, perhaps you should look into one.
I don't think Americans are any more prone than anyone else to deal in stereotypes, I was just making a joke about the shit they buy because they have high incomes, which is partly due to the lack of relative taxation in the country. And no: I don't hate the United States; it's just a joke I felt nearly entitled to because our countries are so similar (like, I suppose Canadians are more collectivist and more like Britain socially in alot of ways, but it still stands that I had a friend who drive from New York-Ontario and said she would've thought she was in the same country if she wasn't preconditioned to know otherwise).
 

Theo Samaritan

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OKOKOK can someone please explain to me if this is correct.

Most of this topic is bouncing off one man (or woman, lets not be sexist) that can't seem to realise that not everybody who buys a gaming capable PC plays games?

Can't seam to realise that any numbers that refer to a gaming capable PC probably count any PC that has more than an on board graphics card, regardless of how shit the actual card is for gaming?

Can't seem to get that the majority of PC's are bought pre-built by people who don't know any better (a fact proven many times by many people) and thus, with the previous point about any expansion GFX card being counted, numbers are much higher than you expect? Especially when a lot of these pre-built machines have a crummy low end 8600 these days that, despite counting towards "gaming capable", can barely run anything released in the past two years?

Am I missing something?

For the record, I admit piracy is probably harming PC gaming, and I admit that its probably making developers think otherwise. I admit it is a problem. I don't have to pull numbers out of my arse to prove that its a problem, but I admit it.

You, Sir Goob, are simply trolling. Half of your numbers and "knowledge" I can't even find in the article you linked (feel free to point it out to me anyone, I can admit when I am wrong), and the other half takes just a little bit of common sense to see why - of course piracy is more common on PC's, consoles are harder to crack for the average user!

Seriously, how did this thread get so long?
 

Nutcase

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It's a shame to see a person waste so much time digging up facts, then turn out such a painfully lopsided article that reads like a shopping list for EA games. He takes game company executives at face value (not my opinion, he actually spells this out) and seems to gladly give them the last word on individual topics. He seems to prefer jumping to conclusions by way of non sequitur and an army of facts to laying things out in a clear and logical manner and going from there. As a result, important counterarguments are missing entirely.

I guess this is not a bad article for someone who just now developed an interest in the subject of piracy. There is some reasonable stuff in there, and names and events one can use as a basis for further investigation.
 

cuddly_tomato

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CmdrGoob said:
EzraPound said:
PC games have been underselling console games in spite of there being more fit-for-gaming computers than consoles since long before widespread piracy. It's because most aren't used for gaming. Next theory please.
Lol, what?

God, some people are so resistant to the idea that piracy is hurting the PC that they'll propose the most laughable alternate theories. The article cites an estimate of of 200 million gaming PCs sold in the last three years, and sales of add-in graphics cards of about 20 million per quarter. Current gen consoles total ~80 million units sold. And games sell ~ fivefold poorer on PC.

That's a fucking shitload of gaming PCs and add-in graphics cards being sold to people who use them as doorstops or some shit.
The reason PC gaming is dying is because the developers are constantly turning out crappy, bugged, half finished games.

Let me refer back to my favorite picture...



There is simply no reason one platform (the platform which sold less than one in five of that particular game) to have such a massive amount of tech issues compared to the others.
 

Zadred Darkflame

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Dec 15, 2008
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cuddly_tomato said:
The reason PC gaming is dying is because the developers are constantly turning out crappy, bugged, half finished games.

Let me refer back to my favorite picture...

[omitted]

There is simply no reason one platform (the platform which sold less than one in five of that particular game) to have such a massive amount of tech issues compared to the others.
The PC is hardly a platform more as it is a factorial of all the potential hardware pieces number of platforms. There are glitches with console versions too, but as there's usually no way to fix or patch console games, of course the complaints are going to be less. People with glitches on the PC know there are potential ways to fix their problems, so they post in forums on their PC.

Released software is ALWAYS buggy. There's no such thing as a piece of software that will run perfectly on every platform, and optimizing software to run on 3 systems (WII, 360, PS3) is infinitesimally easier than optimizing it for every known hardware configuration.
 

CmdrGoob

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Oct 5, 2008
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cuddly_tomato said:
CmdrGoob said:
EzraPound said:
PC games have been underselling console games in spite of there being more fit-for-gaming computers than consoles since long before widespread piracy. It's because most aren't used for gaming. Next theory please.
Lol, what?

God, some people are so resistant to the idea that piracy is hurting the PC that they'll propose the most laughable alternate theories. The article cites an estimate of of 200 million gaming PCs sold in the last three years, and sales of add-in graphics cards of about 20 million per quarter. Current gen consoles total ~80 million units sold. And games sell ~ fivefold poorer on PC.

That's a fucking shitload of gaming PCs and add-in graphics cards being sold to people who use them as doorstops or some shit.
The reason PC gaming is dying is because the developers are constantly turning out crappy, bugged, half finished games.

Let me refer back to my favorite picture...



There is simply no reason one platform (the platform which sold less than one in five of that particular game) to have such a massive amount of tech issues compared to the others.
You can't think of any other reasons why forums for a computer would tend to get more posts from people playing on PCs? If you're playing it on a PC and it crashes, the support forum is right there, if you're playing it on a 360, you'd have to get up and turn on your PC to go and complain.
 

CmdrGoob

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Anyway, you guys can bury your heads in the sand as much as you want; but it's funny how it's not just me saying this, it's a ton of developers and publishers speaking out about this and acting on it, like Crytek giving up on PC exclusive shooters. It's there industry, it's there job to know what's up with it. Maybe you should try listening to them?
 

stompy

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Jan 21, 2008
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Rajin Cajun said:
So, if, by pirating, you are protesting against an industry that produces terrible products, wouldn't a boycott would be more effective?
 

Silver

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Jun 17, 2008
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CmdrGoob said:
cuddly_tomato said:
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/Gorzakk/Rubbish/fo3qm9.jpg[/img]

There is simply no reason one platform (the platform which sold less than one in five of that particular game) to have such a massive amount of tech issues compared to the others.
You can't think of any other reasons why forums for a computer would tend to get more posts from people playing on PCs? If you're playing it on a PC and it crashes, the support forum is right there, if you're playing it on a 360, you'd have to get up and turn on your PC to go and complain.
I'd say part of the reason might also be that no people are sitting and fiddling with their Xboxes, installing random stuff, getting trojans, viruses and other annoying things, they don't have to worry about each and every part being compatible wih the game.

If you check a support forum like that for a pc, I mean really check, and follow through on all the questions posed, how many of those do you think actually had something to do with the game, rather than with the users computer or hardware? It's Vista being a *****, it's your drivers that need updating, it's your anti-virus program that kicks in and stops you from playing, you installed it wrong, you downloaded it wrong, you, you, you, you.


And no, I don't think piracy is destroying PC gaming. Considering that there is a lot of piracy for consoles too, maybe nowhere near as much, but a lot still.

The reasons PC gaming is "failing" isn't because of piracy. Piracy is just a symptom, one that is hurrying the "failing" along quite a bit, but a symptom nonetheless. The reasons are many, but mostly boils down to the customers of games. It's much easier playing a game on a console. You don't have to worry about anything. Playing a game on a console is also more of a social activity. It's easy to plug in several controllers and wreck some mayhem around. Being a console gamer, rather than a pc gamer carries a completely different social stigma.

If you have a console, you can just put a disk in, boot it up and play, directly. Nothing complicated, no worries. It's going to start up, it's going to do so quickly and smoothly. You also have a nice big screen, and usually a pretty comfortable sofa, floor or chair to sit it.

If you play on a computer, you instead have to boot up your computer, put a disk in, install the game, patch the game by downloading the patch, make sure your internet security settings are correctly configured, download new drivers, and then start playing. You're sitting in an office chair at best, with a (since you're a gamer) mouse and keyboard in completely the wrong places, ergonomically speaking.

Wether or not one actually is more casual than the other, the two ways of playing have two completely different images. I remember in several youth-centers (I think this is the term...) I've been that they have consoles people can use. People often play together, often with an audience, or a quene to take over. The computer in the corner though has a single person sitting at, occasionally glancing angrily in the consolers direction. PC's demand more, more attention, more knowledge, and they are an ultimately solitary, at least physically, pursuit. People these days, customers these days, don't want that. They want the pretty system they can play on their pretty tv, and show off to their friends. Sure, the nerdier among us will play computer games too, and scoff at the consolers, for a lot of reasons. But this is one of the bigger reasons why PC gaming is "failing". This and the ridiculous pricing, horrible buggy console ports, overintrusive copy-protection systems and games that are really hard to get is the reason why piracy is so abundant.

Piracy is a partially connected point to PC gaming "failing", but it's not the reason, it's one of the effects. But since game publishers (rarely the developers) think piracy is so abundant, they spend less and less on pc titles.

It should turn up soon though, either through a new influx of quality, or extras, or something, that makes people want to play games on their computers again, or alternative methods of earning money. I don't think the perfect DRM is going to stop piracy, I don't think that taking harsher legal action is going to stop it. I think making people want to buy games is going to stop piracy.




Disclaimer: Yes, I'm aware people may have posted this, in this topic and in others.
I tried to refrain from my personal opinions, and stick to "facts" and observations, except for the summary.
I am not infallible, I may have written something wrong. It is not my intention to cause anyone offence by this post.
I have never owned a console myself.
Apologies for a long post.
 

Flour

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CmdrGoob said:
Anyway, you guys can bury your heads in the sand as much as you want; but it's funny how it's not just me saying this, it's a ton of developers and publishers speaking out about this and acting on it, like Crytek giving up on PC exclusive shooters. It's there industry, it's there job to know what's up with it. Maybe you should try listening to them?
Yeah, they're really reacting to piracy.
Almost every developer that stops PC (exclusive)titles, does so after releasing an extremely poor game.

To give a reason for Crytek and Epic:
Crysis is an average shooter that barely ran on most high-end gaming PCs and the "DX10 only" effects are possible on a DX9 card.(average game that barely ran on decent settings and they lied to the people that are buying their products)
Epic stops(?) with PC gaming, and Gears 2 will not be ported because their PC versions are so great.(poorly optimized recent games, and Gears 1 has some major bugs that are ignored, and will probably never receive a patch)
 

Bidoofle

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Dec 16, 2008
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On the subject of piracy, with developers basically saying "lol no" to developing for the PC. If all of them stop developing for the PC, where do they think the pirates are gonna go? Do they think pirates are just going to disappear? No, they'll just move straight to consoles.
 

Mariena

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Sep 25, 2008
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Bidoofle said:
On the subject of piracy, with developers basically saying "lol no" to developing for the PC. If all of them stop developing for the PC, where do they think the pirates are gonna go? Do they think pirates are just going to disappear? No, they'll just move straight to consoles.
So basically you're saying the "pirates" are some sort of online "faction" that are out there to just.. pirate stuff.. for no good reason?

"Arr let's plunder the PC games!"
"Yarr nay more booty!"
"Arrrr! Thar be consoles, starboard! Set course! Plunder awaits!"
 

Bidoofle

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Dec 16, 2008
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Actually, maybe I should have been a little more specific. The "Scene" will do more with console games, if developers choose to stop developing for the PC.
 

Mariena

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Bidoofle said:
Actually, maybe I should have been a little more specific. The "Scene" will do more with console games, if developers choose to stop developing for the PC.
Yeah, okay. The "Scene" makes more sense. :p

Still, it depends on how many users will actually be bothered to mod their consoles, throw out XBOX Live and all that so they can pirate games. And how many console gamers are actually savvy enough to do that?
 

Dys

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Eggo said:
Dys said:
Pretty sure that people buying computers exclusively for work purposes don't get counted, as they go through various government loopholes to pay less tax etc (thats how it works in Australia anyway, corporate and public sales are very different).
I was talking about the US.

Dys said:
Also you don't nearly need GTX280's to run matlab.
Where did it say anything about Matlab on the CUDA page?
It was in the list, and as it's the only program I use regularly it jumpted out at me.