PC or Console, the developers still need to get payed

[Delusibeta]

Lack of innovation leads to market crashes. Or people just not bothering to buy your next game. Black Ops' sales is going to be interesting to see if the lackluster and unimaginative MW2 has put off many people. Or if the CoD fanbois is the sort of people who buy a toaster if it had "Call of Duty" on it.

 

[Arcticflame]

Yes, I read your post, thank you very much. Legit arguments through and through.

So your tip to every PC gamer is to stubbornly refuse to buy any kind of additional content that isn't free? Then we will look forward for an eternity of unfinished games since it's common knowledge today that you are expected to buy half of a game for full-price and then expand it with additional content. It's a pity that Valve and Dice seems like the only ones that got their senses right in this mess but at least they release good games so I'll think I make due.

The problem is of course that the big companies don't want to innovate, they make heaps of money just if they focus on mainstream. As everyone made damn sure to prove is that the Stimulus Package was terribly overpriced and it still became the most sold DLC of all time (Kanyee West pun not intended). Why change something that sells great even if the customer get's screwed over. All we can do is to pray that Valves vision and as you so accurate described it spreads. Though who will listen to a bunch of PC gamers nagging, they all see us as pirating scums anyway.

And games gotten worser over the past years? Feelin' bit nostalgic are we?

You misunderstand me slightly, I'm not talking about a solution, I'm talking about the problem. I believe valve's way is the way to go, but at the same time I don't for a second believe that many developers will ever do it this way.

I do believe games have taken a downware slide in general. Not in the sense of good games not being released, just the mass quantity in general are worse than in the past.

Great games are still released just as regularly as in the past, but they tend to be buried a bit deeper under mounds of crap than 5 years ago.

I agree that there is little light at the end of the tunnel, it's kind of my point that the same thing that happened to the music industry and film industry happened is happening to video games. That is the most popular games tend to be reaching a common base demographic rather than pushing boundaries. It's natural of course, and unavoidable.

It's a fair point to make that publisher's wont change in terms of pricing. And it's the fault of the consumer really I suppose.

Don't get me wrong however, I'm quite content to continue to purchase games that aren't quite as mainstream as I would like. The same as I am happy to purchase songs and films which don't quite reach the level of popularity they deserve.

 

[Treblaine]

...

Actually PC users feel they're being punished with the removal of content and features (editing tools, dedicated servers) that had become standard simply because consoles lack the infrastructure to support them. A proper solution is to make better consoles, rather than neuter games.

Then when assholes start charging $15 for two new maps and three copypaste ones, content that used to simply exist as a result of devs releasing map editors, everyone is being abused. I don't know if you realize it, but this is less than a megabyte worth of content and only a couple hours worth of work, as the maps simply reuse preexisting assets... and its $15 fucking dollars.

DLC is a fucking scam. Period. Horse armor may have simply become a joke, but the practices haven't changed... and they aren't going to. Publishers know are pretty convinced they have console users by the balls. The problem is every time they assert this fact, droves of console users lick the boot that kicked them and beg for more. So... enjoy paying $5-$15 for what everyone could be getting free. Enjoy taking publisher cock deeper and deeper up your ass, because any time anyone implies you're getting fucked, you cry "elitism."

I'm not even mentioning how shitty shooters in general have become since halo.

the removal of modding tools and dedicated servers is only a small part of this debate, and one im not addressing here, the threads i pointed out were mainly about pricing, thats why im not talking about the other to issues.

as for the mw2 dlc, it was 3 new and 2 re-used, i havnt bought the dlc and i wasnt going to, yes it is over priced for very little content, but thats not my point, im talking about those that feel they shouldnt have to pay for it at all.

You know, it is not very clear what you REALLY want to talk about.

Also you have to realise as OP you may have started this topic but you don't have absolute control over the directions it is going, especially if they are exploring a relevant avenue. You cannot simply dismiss highly related factors because "that's not what I'm interested in" as EVERYTHING has be be given context. Look, the lack of user mods/map-making ARE important and related issues and you should consider them even if they weren't what you originally sought out.

"im talking about those that feel they shouldnt have to pay for it at all."

Have you heard of economics? It is the market that decides prices.

if someone starts selling a loaf of bread at $100 per kilo no one will buy it. Bread is the price it is thanks to competition and the market voting with their money.

I know, a piece of DLC is not a loaf of bread but it IS

Also consider this, with DLC almost the entire price $15 goes to the publisher, while the game selling at retail only $20-30 goes to the Publisher. So the publisher in this rare case is almost earning as much from the DLC as from the ENTIRE GAME!!

Doesn't that create a HUGE conflict of interest? Surely the actual game is the most important part yet the developers here would be earning as much from a tack on extra. Isn't there the incentive to DELIBERATELY pause development of maps (under some bullshit excuse like "optimise resources") to have it released a bit later as DLC.

 

[Treblaine]

Lack of innovation leads to market crashes. Or people just not bothering to buy your next game. Black Ops' sales is going to be interesting to see if the lackluster and unimaginative MW2 has put off many people. Or if the CoD fanbois is the sort of people who buy a toaster if it had "Call of Duty" on it.

Well I kinda liked CoD: World at War... wasn't great but I only got it for £10 at the Steam Christmas Sales.

It's not like EVERYTHING with the call of duty name sells like gangbusters, COD4 on Wii sold poor, as well as on DS and the PS2 iterations.

Treyarch are dependable, solid high-70's-to-low-80's metascores. Worth it with a discount.

 

[EBass]

the removal of modding tools and dedicated servers is only a small part of this debate, and one im not addressing here, the threads i pointed out were mainly about pricing, thats why im not talking about the other to issues.

No, the removal of modding tools and dedicated servers is ABSOLUTELY CENTRAL to this debate. I have no problem with developers bringing out crappy DLC that any decent community could shit out within a month of the games release. I simply won't buy it, as I have not bought expansion packs in the past or DLC nowerdays.

What matters is when the developers force the system down my throat by making it impossible to for users to create their own experience. I'd like to post a comment here by Gildan Bladeborn from a topic on the MW2 debate some time ago which highlights my thoughts on the issue, though you might want to ignore some of the coarser language.

How on earth is the solution to "Oh noes, consoles can't support all the cool mods the community makes/Microsoft won't let Valve release all the cool content updates they make without charging for it" going to be "We should just remove all those features from the PC then, now the poor benighted console owners can feel great knowing they've dragged everyone else down to second-class citizen status, huzzah!"?

Sure, console gamers may rightly feel snubbed on the TF2 front (raise hell with Microsoft on that one folks!), but the existence of that content on the PC side isn't why they don't have it. This is not a case where developers made the console version worse so the PC version could be better - they are not withholding you content because they love their PC brethren more and want you to suffer in envy: the limitations of your platform preclude them from providing it to you (again, thank Microsoft for that). Rather than just not give anyone new free stuff, they choose to release it on the platform that allows them to give that stuff away for free. It sucks to be you, but there's no logical reason to punish PC gamers equally for the sins of the console gatekeepers.

This is not a zero-sum game - the only ones who lose when PC-specific features are cut are the PC gamers, because the console title was never going to have those features anyways, and now nobody has them. Things like mod support and free content updates from developers who have their heads somewhere other than jammed up their hindquarters are specific competitive advantages of the PC platform, and not a whole lot to ask considering how many titles are given no more than the most cursory of ports, if they even make it onto the PC in the first place. It would be wonderful if consoles had those features too - and with the various advances made, there are less and less technical reasons they couldn't - but they don't.

Yea fine, some console complaints about PC elitism are justified, but saying "Why should they get it for free when we have to pay for it" is penis envy of the worst kind. Its saying everyone should be dragged down so no one needs to feel bad. Its the intellectual equivelent of a PS2 owner saying...

"Why should us PS2 owners have to have a graphically inferior version of the new FIFA game, XBox360 and PS3 owners should be forced to play the game on the same graphics engine and animation system we are using!"

I don't give a crap if Infinity Ward release a map pack which contains one map and is priced at £50, thats their perogative. But when they purposely REMOVE features that allow me a creative alternative, thats when I get angry.

Its not nor has it even been about PC users DEMANDING a superior version, I think every single PC user would support console players getting the same features as the PC traditionally supports, dedicated servers, moddability etc, but the features of your system PRECLUDES you having them. Its about PC users demanding we don't have features taken away which are specific advantages of our system for the specific purpose of bloedgeoning us into buying crappy content.

 

[Cryo84R]

...

Actually PC users feel they're being punished with the removal of content and features (editing tools, dedicated servers) that had become standard simply because consoles lack the infrastructure to support them. A proper solution is to make better consoles, rather than neuter games.

Then when assholes start charging $15 for two new maps and three copypaste ones, content that used to simply exist as a result of devs releasing map editors, everyone is being abused. I don't know if you realize it, but this is less than a megabyte worth of content and only a couple hours worth of work, as the maps simply reuse preexisting assets... and its $15 fucking dollars.

DLC is a fucking scam. Period. Horse armor may have simply become a joke, but the practices haven't changed... and they aren't going to. Publishers know are pretty convinced they have console users by the balls. The problem is every time they assert this fact, droves of console users lick the boot that kicked them and beg for more. So... enjoy paying $5-$15 for what everyone could be getting free. Enjoy taking publisher cock deeper and deeper up your ass, because any time anyone implies you're getting fucked, you cry "elitism."

I'm not even mentioning how shitty shooters in general have become since halo.

Paying for something that costs money to make is not "taking it up the ass".

 

[TelHybrid]

Hmm my theory is I'm sick of things being taken away from PC gaming to stop the console tards from crying that they don't get certain stuff. Free updates (now known as DLC) and such.

Why is stuff PC gaming has had since the late 90's being taken away?

I'm also sick of console tards coming back with "why should you have special privileges?". They're not privileges, they're things PC gaming has had for years. Why should they be taken away because you tards are such crybabies that you don't get them?

 

[Gildan Bladeborn]

Spoiler: Snippety do da!

the removal of modding tools and dedicated servers is only a small part of this debate, and one im not addressing here, the threads i pointed out were mainly about pricing, thats why im not talking about the other to issues.

No, the removal of modding tools and dedicated servers is ABSOLUTELY CENTRAL to this debate. I have no problem with developers bringing out crappy DLC that any decent community could shit out within a month of the games release. I simply won't buy it, as I have not bought expansion packs in the past or DLC nowerdays.

What matters is when the developers force the system down my throat by making it impossible to for users to create their own experience. I'd like to post a comment here by Gildan Bladeborn from a topic on the MW2 debate some time ago which highlights my thoughts on the issue, though you might want to ignore some of the coarser language.

How on earth is the solution to "Oh noes, consoles can't support all the cool mods the community makes/Microsoft won't let Valve release all the cool content updates they make without charging for it" going to be "We should just remove all those features from the PC then, now the poor benighted console owners can feel great knowing they've dragged everyone else down to second-class citizen status, huzzah!"?

Sure, console gamers may rightly feel snubbed on the TF2 front (raise hell with Microsoft on that one folks!), but the existence of that content on the PC side isn't why they don't have it. This is not a case where developers made the console version worse so the PC version could be better - they are not withholding you content because they love their PC brethren more and want you to suffer in envy: the limitations of your platform preclude them from providing it to you (again, thank Microsoft for that). Rather than just not give anyone new free stuff, they choose to release it on the platform that allows them to give that stuff away for free. It sucks to be you, but there's no logical reason to punish PC gamers equally for the sins of the console gatekeepers.

This is not a zero-sum game - the only ones who lose when PC-specific features are cut are the PC gamers, because the console title was never going to have those features anyways, and now nobody has them. Things like mod support and free content updates from developers who have their heads somewhere other than jammed up their hindquarters are specific competitive advantages of the PC platform, and not a whole lot to ask considering how many titles are given no more than the most cursory of ports, if they even make it onto the PC in the first place. It would be wonderful if consoles had those features too - and with the various advances made, there are less and less technical reasons they couldn't - but they don't.

Yea fine, some console complaints about PC elitism are justified, but saying "Why should they get it for free when we have to pay for it" is penis envy of the worst kind. Its saying everyone should be dragged down so no one needs to feel bad. Its the intellectual equivelent of a PS2 owner saying...

"Why should us PS2 owners have to have a graphically inferior version of the new FIFA game, XBox360 and PS3 owners should be forced to play the game on the same graphics engine and animation system we are using!"

I don't give a crap if Infinity Ward release a map pack which contains one map and is priced at £50, thats their perogative. But when they purposely REMOVE features that allow me a creative alternative, thats when I get angry.

Its not nor has it even been about PC users DEMANDING a superior version, I think every single PC user would support console players getting the same features as the PC traditionally supports, dedicated servers, moddability etc, but the features of your system PRECLUDES you having them. Its about PC users demanding we don't have features taken away which are specific advantages of our system for the specific purpose of bloedgeoning us into buying crappy content.

For a moment I couldn't fathom why I got a quote notification from a post in this thread when I was pretty sure I never posted anything in it, but then I saw you were citing something I said elsewhere as support for your position. Mystery solved!

I am curious why you prefaced that quote with "though you might want to ignore some of the coarser language" though. I've re-read what I posted, and apart from my suggestion that irate users should "raise hell", there isn't anything in there that could really be perceived as profanity - have certain words suddenly taken on a profane connotation and I just missed the memo?

 

[EBass]

I am curious why you prefaced that quote with "though you might want to ignore some of the coarser language" though. I've re-read what I posted, and apart from my suggestion that irate users should "raise hell", there isn't anything in there that could really be perceived as profanity - have certain words suddenly taken on a profane connotation and I just missed the memo?

Not exactly "coarse language" just somewhat confrontational in tone. I didn't want anyone to use my post as a pretext for a Console vs PC flamewar.

 

[Doug]

Now in the PC elitists thread...

And this is the point when I stopped reading.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

Its about PC users demanding we don't have features taken away which are specific advantages of our system for the specific purpose of bloedgeoning us into buying crappy content.

You've nailed it (except for 'bludgeoning').

Many publishers seem determined to cut off our extra/alternative content sources that we've been busily building up over the past 15+ years and replace them with their own commercial versions.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

And games gotten worser over the past years? Feelin' bit nostalgic are we?

Games haven't gotten worse over the years (unless you're a fan of point'n'click adventures or space combat sims to name 2 more or less dead genres) but gaming has. Wayyyy back when almost every restriction had a technological basis, so we felt upbeat to the fact that this would change as things went on. Now, we get all these bullshit arbitrary restrictions that are economically based and the feeling is far less confident that shit will improve.

In some ways the worst thing to happen to Gaming is that it became big business. Too much money flying around for some people not to go a little batshit over it.

 

[EBass]

And games gotten worser over the past years? Feelin' bit nostalgic are we?

Games haven't gotten worse over the years (unless you're a fan of point'n'click adventures or space combat sims to name 2 more or less dead genres) but gaming has. Wayyyy back when almost every restriction had a technological basis, so we felt upbeat to the fact that this would change as things went on. Now, we get all these bullshit arbitrary restrictions that are economically based and the feeling is far less confident that shit will improve.

In some ways the worst thing to happen to Gaming is that it became big business. Too much money flying around for some people not to go a little batshit over it.

Well no GAMES haven't gotten worse, but they've hardly progressed in the ways pointed to so brilliantly in the PC "Golden Age". Just as one example......

Operation Flashpoint was released in 2001. Thats nearly a DECADE ago, how many developers have had the bravery and drive to even attempt what was a brilliant vision of what games could do? Pretty much only the same developers who made the first one.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

Operation Flashpoint was released in 2001. Thats nearly a DECADE ago, how many developers have had the bravery and drive to even attempt what was a brilliant vision of what games could do? Pretty much only the same developers who made the first one.

This is the sort of thing I mean by economic restrictions... When you get publishers pouring fuckloads of cash into game development they're going to pressure developers to take the conservative route - milk popular franchises, follow successful formulae, don't take risks that could alienate the fanbase and, in most cases, make sure it comes out on at least one console because that's the current cash cow.

I think one of the reasons PC game development is having such a good run in Eastern Europe at the moment. Less publisher presence = less publisher pressure. It won't last forever but I'm hoping a few more gems get released before it all crumbles.

 

[NeoNomad]

we don't need those "privileges". We have the greatest privilege over all console-tards...a brain.

 

[Regiment]

Well, for starters, console (or PC) elitism or fanboyism is stupidity at its finest. Nobody's trying to take down your console of choice (and if they tried, they'd fail); you don't need to defend it like they are.

I don't have a problem with pricing for DLC. Period. I don't care if they charge $100 for a new hat for my character, because I don't have to buy it and the designer doesn't owe me anything. DLC is a bonus. When I buy a game, I expect to get the game, and if they want to offer me extra stuff at an extra fee... that's business. I've bought some DLC, and I've avoided others. Should it be free anywhere? I don't know, I didn't program it. If the developers want to charge more for it on console X than on console Y, that's their decision and I don't care.

Regarding platform advantages and disadvantages: They're so similar it's laughable sometimes. I honestly don't see the differences between PS3, PC, and 360 games (literally- if you showed me one running, I'd be hard-pressed to say what system was running it), and the Wii kind of does its own thing, which is neither better nor worse than what the others do.

Short version: What the original poster said. He's right.

 

[Delusibeta]

Well, for starters, console (or PC) elitism or fanboyism is stupidity at its finest. Nobody's trying to take down your console of choice (and if they tried, they'd fail); you don't need to defend it like they are.

I don't have a problem with pricing for DLC. Period. I don't care if they charge $100 for a new hat for my character, because I don't have to buy it and the designer doesn't owe me anything. DLC is a bonus. When I buy a game, I expect to get the game, and if they want to offer me extra stuff at an extra fee... that's business. I've bought some DLC, and I've avoided others. Should it be free anywhere? I don't know, I didn't program it. If the developers want to charge more for it on console X than on console Y, that's their decision and I don't care.

Regarding platform advantages and disadvantages: They're so similar it's laughable sometimes. I honestly don't see the differences between PS3, PC, and 360 games (literally- if you showed me one running, I'd be hard-pressed to say what system was running it), and the Wii kind of does its own thing, which is neither better nor worse than what the others do.

Short version: What the original poster said. He's right.

Completely missing the PC lot's point: Traditionally, PC games come with modding tools, and PC gamers create their own DLC. Now publishers are not releasing modding tools and then turning round and charging us $15 for five maps. Which would be laughable five years ago on any platform.

There's a point where PC gamers have a right to whinge about, and charging for DLC that's pretty much manditory in a game without modding tools is that point, in my opinion. Console gamers should also be whinging about it (minus the "no modding tools" bit), in my opinion, but very few of them are.