penny arcade equates used games to piracy

[TwistedLogic]

I fail to see how this has any justification whatsoever >.> I'm sure this would have been pointed out before and if it has, I'm just agreeing, however:

If a Dev sells a copy of a game to someone, they are SELLING that physical piece of merchandise....they retain the rights to the software, ideas, names, brand etc, nothing more. The person who bought the game has no rights to copy or edit the software (i.e. the game itself) but CAN sell the physical merchandise (i.e. the disk/box etc) to someone else. The Dev isn't loosing out because they have already sold that merchandise and it is not being replicated, copied or edited.

If people cannot see that difference between buying used games and piracy, then stick to buying new, freshly minted games and don't try to force retarded systems into effect.

Just a note for those who say buying used games don't support the 'people we should support' they actually DO. The profit from used games goes to the store you buy it from...so unless your saying that the games stores etc are NOT an important part of the games industry, you don't really have a leg to stand on. (Oh, btw, the stores ARE an important part of the industry...just fyi ^^)

 

[The Lunatic]

Used Sales = Piracy?

No.

You get more content with piracy.

 

[Jimson]

This really can't be further from the truth, the thing is Developers put there media on a cd that can be traded, exchanged, and given away freely, and as such they release the ability to call Piracy when people exchange goods for those products. Also, no one is subverting any built in mechanism in these products to keep there data from being shared. There for, No laws were broken, Now of course if someone figured out a way to send people the small bits of information from there X-box needed to play these new "locked" games on a new X-Box Then that of course would be piracy, because this data is not already readily built into the CD.

 

[rembrandtqeinstein]

As I mentioned before in other threads, "used sales" are actually a lot worse for the publishers in a financial/business sense than piracy could ever be, because the consumers buying a used product indicate that they want to spend money on it (being it 5-10$ cheaper) and actually do it, while pirating something for free will not equal in actual money being transfered and lost to them.

Because of how used sales extract the money at the retail level I believe that they are more harmful to the industry than piracy.

 

[Dimbo_Sama]

No used games aren't worse than piracy because the structure is still causing the same thing, for the money used to purchase the item not going to the developer. The problem with it is that the same as piracy, the money usually goes to someone else, who put no work into it, and has no problem with making money off of it. And before you turn around and says no one makes money of game Piracy, it's been around for longer than the internet, and in those days, you'd have to buy it off someone! Even as recent as the PSX, if you wanted to pirate games, you could do it online no problem but you'd have to rig your console. We had a method using a cheat cartridge that was also a universal region player, but other times you'd have to pay someone to fit it into the motherboard.

And where did this sudden hatred of used games come from, anyways? I don't remember people debating this a year ago.

The reason you didn't hear people debating this a year ago, is because developers have only started noticing that it is a problem. Back even about 12 years ago, games weren't a fifth as expensive as they are to develop these days. The more the cost of making these games goes up the more noticeable the loss from used sales.

 

[Cliche]

I go one better than buying used games, I take full advantage of Gamestop's 7 day return policy.

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

Ive already had this arguement with another user here, i conceded defeat, i accept my reasoning is poor, i wont pirate any games like mystery dungion again which is the ONLY one i accept it was wrong for me to pirate, and even then it ironically helped with a sale. Please dont go to petty insults such as leech, it demeans the whole debate.

I called you a leech because that's what you are. Unlike the vast majority of today's spineless journalists, I don't believe there are two valid sides to every single story. I don't believe in equal play for both halves of a debate if one of them is just provably incorrect. Sometimes people are just extremely fucking wrong, and they don't deserve the respect of a stoic scholarly debate. They deserve to be mocked, ridiculed, and laughed at for arguing such overtly wrong ideas.

"Arguing" is the key bit. If you understand that piracy is destructive, and you do it anyway, more power to you. You've decided not to place any importance on the fact that it's wrong. People knowingly partake in all kinds of objectively destructive behavior every day, and a lot of it is far more damaging than simple game piracy.

You just shouldn't try to justify it in a public forum.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

Ive already had this arguement with another user here, i conceded defeat, i accept my reasoning is poor, i wont pirate any games like mystery dungion again which is the ONLY one i accept it was wrong for me to pirate, and even then it ironically helped with a sale. Please dont go to petty insults such as leech, it demeans the whole debate.

I called you a leech because that's what you are. Unlike the vast majority of today's spineless journalists, I don't believe there are two valid sides to every single story. I don't believe in equal play for both halves of a debate if one of them is just provably incorrect. Sometimes people are just extremely fucking wrong, and they don't deserve the respect of a stoic scholarly debate. They deserve to be mocked, ridiculed, and laughed at for arguing such overtly wrong ideas.

"Arguing" is the key bit. If you understand that piracy is destructive, and you do it anyway, more power to you. You've decided not to place any importance on the fact that it's wrong. People knowingly partake in all kinds of objectively destructive behavior every day, and a lot of it is far more damaging than simple game piracy.

You just shouldn't try to justify it in a public forum.

Thats a pretty intolerant view point, if my first arguement had been with you i would still think piracy is right. Fortunately the first user was a reasonable person and debated well with me, enough so to accept I WILL NEVER GET A ROM OF A GAME I DONT OWN AGAIN, because he logically defeated my view points instead of going "YOUR WRONG LEECH, YOUR OPINIONS JUST SO WRONG!". I am not a leech for pirating a single game i dont own already, to assist in a sale of said game, then deleting it. That insult was unfounded. You know it. Its a fact. The ract you also persue the arguement and continue to insult me despite also accepting you are correct tells me your not very gracious in victory. Im on your side now, no need to be so anti.

Peoples opinions may be stupid IN YOUR OPINION. You cant argue debate or even talk about an issue if your not willing to accept their opinion holds any water at all. You have to accept just for a second that they COULD be right. Thats called open minded ness and a willingness to change your views if proven wrong. People who dont do this only partake in flame wars and shouting matches. They will never change their opinion and as such any arguement is a pointless waste of time, regardless of how well you convince them or argue their points down.

Your views of "laugh mock and be a douche" dont do anythiing to help change peoples minds about issues, only to make them more fanatical and steadfast in resisting your un thinking ridicule. If everyone argued like you i would still be a pirate. Loads of people would still think stupid things. You make the issue worse by making them retreat into shells of ignorance instead of trying to show them why its wrong.

I was convinced, is it so outlandish other people could be to?

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

snip

No. No to your whole post. I don't think I need to coddle someone who is so obviously 100% in the wrong. I also think that the acceptance/tolerance of completely nonsensical positions is a job for your mom and no one else. People shouldn't get to hide behind "opinions" in debates or arguments, and I shouldn't have to entertain their ideas for even a second if they are ignorant on the face of it.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

snip

No. No to your whole post. I don't think I need to coddle someone who is so obviously 100% in the wrong. I also think that the acceptance/tolerance of completely nonsensical positions is a job for your mom and no one else. People shouldn't get to hide behind "opinions" in debates or arguments, and I shouldn't have to entertain their ideas for even a second if they are ignorant on the face of it.

I know i was 100% in the wrong. Thing is someone explained it to me like i was a person and i realised. Your way makes them not realise. See how one makes a good thing happen and one dosnt change anything at all? If you treat ignorant people like they will always be ignorant your not helping anyone. At least try and reason with them, maybe you'll do something for the community and take some ignorance away.

You cant tell me it doesnt work it changed my mind.

Look we obviously have two different ways of addressing idiots. I reason with them and if they take the stance of the steadfast fanatic i then move to your tactic of ridicule. I think its a sound tactic to try and talk to these people, perhas finding the cause of the ignorance.

Obviously you disagree, and thats fine. I like to think im doing a better job of cleaning up the stupid. Or even correcting my own stupid by seeking out people to challenge my views. I like a good debate or arguement and like finding when im wrong so i can revise my opinions. Honestly if youd said "your a 100% wrong and heres why" i would have been happy to listen and agree with you.

You cant say someones 100% wrong then give no reasons other than "cus they are and i hate them for it". Tell me why im a 100% wrong. If i ignore it THEN bash me. I honestly invite it. If you explain your opinion of these people being 100% wrong and unworthy of your mighty reasoning power and its sound then surely they will agree with you. And if they dont they deserve your bashing?

 

[omega 616]

Okay, lets take MW2 as an example, excluding the whole non payment thing.

Activision pay, IW to make a game, IW make the game and the distributors sell it to game stores (and other places), they sell it to us gamers. Activision then tells Treyarch make black ops, Treyarch make the game and the distributors sell it to the game stores ... who use the money they made off selling MW2 (first and second hand) to buy them.

Thats were they get there money.

Simples. (thats how I understand the circle to work anyway)

This whole buying used is worse than piracy is bollocks. Buying used is like the original buyer never existed, piracy is the the original buyer keeping theres and making another 1,000+ copies ... none of which are paid for.

Unless the pirate only pirates to one person and never uses there copy again, then it's like selling the game and somebody else buying second hand.

There as different as hot and cold.

 

[wadark]

check it out here http://www.penny-arcade.com/2010/8/25/

The basic argument is if you pirate the publisher doesn't see a dime, if you buy used the publisher doesn't see a dime.

I would go one step further and say used games are WORSE than piracy. Because with used games you are extracting money from the games market. A used game buyer has money in their pocket, and has shown a willingness to spend it on a game. A pirate doesn't necessarily have money or if they do is not willing to spend it.

In my opinion used game shops (and to a lesser extent rental places) are parasites leeching off of the creativity and risktaking of developers and publishers. You could claim that because someone knows they can resell a game they are more willing to pay the new price but I would argue that the amount is negligible compared to the amount a publisher doesn't get when someone purchases used instead of new.

Of course digital downloads and online purchases are going to murder games retailers just like they did record and book stores so I think the gamestop problem will go away in a few years.

All I can say on the subject is this. Many-a-time it comes down to a situation of "Either I buy it used, or I don't buy it period." Either way, the publisher sees no money. In this scenario, the only person hurt by the anti-used game crusade is me.

If there's a game I want...really, REALLY want...then I get it new first day, or ASAP. That's really the foundation of video game sales. Modern Warfare 2 sold how many millions of dollars on day one? Even if you take used games out of the picture, that would still, I believe, account for the vast majority of MW2's total revenue.

All of the big-name titles are going to sell big early on regardless. Lesser known titles are still going to be picked up by the people who know about and are interested in them early on. Used games don't really come into the picture in any big way until the games have been on the shelves for a decent while, and by then, again, the vast majority of the game's revenue has already been made.

I stand by used games as a more economical way for some people to experience games. If people really want a game that badly, they'll buy it early on. If not, then there's a good chance they aren't going to buy it at all, unless they can get it used. And heck, what if someone gets a used game, finds out that its really good, and decides to pick up the next release from that studio or franchise when its released.

 

[Duffy13]

A lot of people seem to be confusing the argument/problem with something completely different. What Tycho was talking about, and what most Developers are trying to point out is not in reference to out of date/stock games or pirating.

Their complaints are referring specifically to the practice of buying back and reselling brand new games within days and weeks of release, thus cutting the money flow back to the developer who spent millions producing the game. Essentially a used and new game more often then not have the same exact value, there is no difference in the consumer experience. This situation only helps the consumer and the middle-man, it can arguably hurt the developer.

The argument then goes on to point out that this may be the source of most gaming woes including unoriginality, sequelitis, DRM, Online extras, MMO Glut, etc...

While it is hard to determine the specifics without data from both the developers and the middle-man retailers, most people believe it is having some noticeable effect on the gaming industry.

Regardless of all that, it comes down to roughly two options:
1. DRM and Online Features
2. Adapt to market through price/distribution/one time extras etc.. (basically non-permanent/critical DRM solutions)

Number one is being done with varying levels of success. Steam being the best example, while Ubisoft DRM being one of the worst examples.

Number two is probably the happiest consumer point but the hardest to implement as it could have almost no effect. Very little has occurred towards this goal; what little has been in the form of extras from a one time use code or in the form of Collector's Editions.

The debate is not whether it's happening, it clearly is. The debate is what's the scale and what can developers do to make it better for everyone.

 

[Rivers Wells]

I want to start off by saying that the attitude of the those figures in the game industry comparing buying used games to all out pirating is a bit silly in comparison, but I can understand the frustration.

The games industry, for all it has said to the contrary, is not at all recession proof. Take the average game being sold at $60. The CD printing cost is nill but there's a lot more after that. Payment for printing the game case, payment for printing the game manual, paying the people who designed both, paying for packaging, the costs go up over and over. Furthermore in defense of game pricing, the supply chain (which if you're going to keep reading these posts you need to know about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_chain) for video games is massive. The publishers design the game, but the cost itself is more determined by those who ship the product. Moving from publisher, to manufacturer, to warehouse, to retailer, by the time a game reaches the shelf of a store there are a lot of people expecting payment right behind it for just getting the damn thing there.

Hence, we have a product that was already fairly high priced before it hit the shelves nearly doubling in price before we ever even get the chance to see it for the first time. This is yet another reason why games purchased online are becoming more and more popular, since as more games become available online and there are more people using this service, games may be charged at lower prices since it goes straight from publisher to your computer without paying all the middlemen who get it to us.

Sorry for the digression, but this is a great example of why at the moment the games industry is in a bit of a fix. Games have to be at their current price in order to turn the profit needed to continue making the AAA titles game companies are expected to release and really any games at all. These AAA titles have to reach as many people as possible, so creativity in the games industry is becoming scarcer and scarcer since it might turn off its most frequent customers. So not only are games becoming so expensive that less and less people are buying them, but because the games industry isn't changing their market isn't growing.

So imagine yourself a developer looking at the sales charts for your game and being underwhelmed at the numbers but turning around seeing that nearly half that amount has been recouped by a retailer retailer with 0 profit for you on the resale when your publisher is already threatening to drop you since, given the economy, everyone is losing money faster than they can rake it in. Even publishers themselves would be upset over the financial imbalance where the game YOU made is making an embarrassing amount of money for others.

So yes, the phrase "buying used games is like pirating" is at its core ridiculous, but the anger we're seeing from the industry has a reasonable source. In my opinion, the problem with the games industry isn't just used games or any one facet, its the business model at large.

Right now, publishers have to sell these games at their high price to stay in business, developers are forced to recreate the same types of games over and over to insure they can turn a profit and even exist as a company a year from now and the we, the game market, are suffering from the financial burdens the game industry has to deal with these days if there is going to continue to BE a games industry. To reiterate, online retailers are more than likely the wave of the future given that games can be sold much cheaper on it and can be bought and sold from the comfort of your home.

In the end, the industry as a whole has a lot to think about and a lot to deal with at the moment, so if a few developers in the heat of the moment said something off the collar about buying used games, as juvenile as the comment may be, I can't really blame them and hope they still have a job next year if there next game doesn't earn the $20,000,000 profit (not in sales, profit) they are required to meet or be fired.

 

[rembrandtqeinstein]

So yes, the phrase "buying used games is like pirating" is at its core ridiculous, but the anger we're seeing from the industry has a reasonable source. In my opinion, the problem with the games industry isn't just used games or any one facet, its the business model at large.

I don't think it is quite so ridiculous. A used game deprives a publisher of a sale, a pirate copy deprives a publisher of a sale. And my argument from post 1 was that the high pressure sales at Gamestop to channel customers into used games is the WORSE for the industry than piracy. For piracy to be equivalent it would have to be like a guy standing outside of the store, asking people what game they are going to buy, then giving them a piratebay link to that game and easy instructions on how to use torrent software.