Penny Arcade on The Witcher 2

[shadowmagus]

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/

I'm wondering what the Escapist makes of this comic, which went along with this explanation:

I installed The Witcher 2 on the PC we have in the office here so that Gabriel could see with his own eyes some of the things I've been telling him about. While I was home this morning teaching my daughter which berries are to be avoided, he was here playing through the game's nominal "tutorial", a sequence of retrospective vignettes that can be played in any order. When I got in, he told me that he had died twelve times at the same spot and then quit. I knew the spot he was taking about; I'd died there myself.

Forty-seven times.

He didn't believe me when I said "forty-seven," but I started counting it. It's partly my fault. I wanted to see if something was possible, and it wasn't! It really, really wasn't.

I'm not sure what they were thinking with this stuff, I honestly don't; this dogged refusal to help the player. If I had to guess, it is this way because they didn't want to do some boring, typical tutorial sequence that insults the player and makes their titular warmaster out to be some concussed dipshit, taking part in some remedial course for monster slayers. That's certainly something I can understand. What's happened in the absence of a true "booster phase", though, is that people who want to play the game but lack psychic ability are forcibly driven out.

It has tooltips that pop up from time to time, but if you're under active assault by a dragon maybe you aren't looking at that. This game doesn't really play like others, your skills either from action titles or the role-playing genre won't really cross apply. A Witcher is tough, but he's not optimal unless he takes time to prepare for a fight, which involves the brewing, consumption, or application of various things inside or outside the body. This is one of the things that make up the odd cadence of this world. So much is left to chance.

PC Games can be cantankerous, idiosyncratic, occasionally unrelenting, and unwilling to make concessions. I happen to like that kind of thing; that's more or less my own philosophy. We are just... unreconstructed, is the word. If they're serious about bringing this to consoles, the first hour of the game needs to go up on the lift. Those nines and tens it's pulling now won't survive contact with that audience.

Penny Arcade is nothing if not regular gamers, so I'm inclined to agree with Tycho on this point. What I think though, is irrelevant, I'm curious as to how The Escapist feels on this opinion.

 

[cainx10a]

I only switched to Easy in the first Chapter, after I completed all the segments of the Tutorial, I am assuming that they are segments since I did chose to start from the very beginning of the siege, rather than the last part of it.

The difficulty wasn't that hard once I figured out what I needed to do, and at the time, I didn't even know how the blocking mechanism work, that my vigor was being drained each time I made a successfully parry, so I just kept dodging and trying to get in the blind sight of the enemies, or waiting for them to attack before charging in, and hopefully being able to connect my combos before retreating again.

I am going to assume that the part where they died a hundred time might have been the first dragon encounter. That was a pain, but in the end, I just rushed ahead, and allowed my 'team' to catch the 'agro' so that I had an easier time backstabbing those yokels in the bum.

But for the most part, I had to open my journal to read the notes given to me by the game to understand some of the mechanics. The game certainly has flaws that ruin the gameplay a little bit, like not being able to drink a potion in the middle of a fight, I mean, on my first playthrough, I almost never expected a fight to happen at a certain location, only until I died on the first encounter, then reloaded, used my potions to buff my stats, then charged in.

Too bad easy more is like ... way .... too ... easy ... compared to the brutality of the normal difficulty.

 

[-Seraph-]

The comic was somewhat amusing, but to me it also pointed out something wrong with players these days. They expect everything handed to them in some tutorial, and god forbid you read the manual or pull up the in game journal that tells you everything you need to know. The game wasn't that difficult to figure out...at all. In the time it takes you to download/install the game, you could read the manual and already have a firm understanding of the controls, combat, powers and all the stuff.

I really don't like to come off as some snob or douche, but a lot of complaints in regards to this crap can be easily resolved by taking a few minutes and reading the damn instructions. The manual by extension, is the tutorial in written form, so USE IT.

 

[tzimize]

I died there a lot of times aswell and while it might have been a harsh and frustrating experience, I was smiling each time I died, because I couldn't help thinking about how big of a "fuck you" it was to the people who thought this game will be more causal since the port is coming.

Died? How? Where? Granted I played on easy, but I reckon you did too? If not, well play on easy? :S

If you die that much on easy then I honestly dont know what you are doing wrong. The Witcher is an incredibly easy game. If you are playing on anything but easy, you WANT the challenge.

If anyone thinks W2 is a frustrating experience they dont really know the definition of the word frustration, or else need to buy an ounce of patience before playing RPGs.

Super Meat Boy...thats frustrating. Demons Souls...thats frustrating...Witcher?...Come on.

 

[-Seraph-]

If anyone thinks W2 is a frustrating experience they dont really know the definition of the word frustration, or else need to buy an ounce of patience before playing RPGs.

Super Meat Boy...thats frustrating. Demons Souls...thats frustrating...Witcher?...Come on.

The only part of Witcher 2 I found myself legitimately frustrated at by the difficulty (granted I was playing on hard) was the Wraith mist. And that's mainly because you're handicapped for all but the end of that section and have to deal with several enemies at once as well. Annoying fighting 5 guys without any ability to use signs, traps, potions, or rolls, but at least it fit with the context of the situation.

Dragon only killed me 3 times....and one of those was because I was stupid and ran into the fire by accident XD

 

[linwolf]

Games have manual read it, there you now know how to play. If you still die turn the difficulty down, stop demanding the game to hold you hand.

 

[cyber95]

The comic was somewhat amusing, but to me it also pointed out something wrong with players these days. They expect everything handed to them in some tutorial, and god forbid you read the manual or pull up the in game journal that tells you everything you need to know. The game wasn't that difficult to figure out...at all. In the time it takes you to download/install the game, you could read the manual and already have a firm understanding of the controls, combat, powers and all the stuff.

I really don't like to come off as some snob or douche, but a lot of complaints in regards to this crap can be easily resolved by taking a few minutes and reading the damn instructions. The manual by extension, is the tutorial in written form, so USE IT.

Well the thing is you shouldn't have to look in the manual. The manual should be supplementary reference, and a game should be able to teach you exactly what you need to know. If you have to go look it up outside of the game in order to get something done, the game has failed to teach you. There's a reason that game manuals are dying, and that's because they're starting to become obsolete as games get more efficient at teaching you the ropes.

 

[bob1052]

The games difficulty curb wasn't that brutal (on normal, which I have heard people complain about).

The very first fight if you do the prologue in chronological order doesn't require you to swing your sword, but the second fight all the way until the end of the prologue are pretty tough.

The intro sequence to chapter 1 is really easy, but the immediate wilderness was a ***** at the start. A few quests in it became manageable and nothing was painfully difficult except

Spoiler: End of Chapter 2 & 3

The battlefield exorcism and fucking Saskia (<3 her, shes my wallpaper)

 

[Gildan Bladeborn]

The only time I died at all during the prologue was during the sequence where you're running from a dragon, and that was mostly because I read the tutorial prompt and then was looking for an indication that I should press the right mouse button - no such prompt appeared however. So on the 3rd go I just ran and pressed that button whenever it looked like the dragon was going to take a swipe at me, and that did the trick.

Of course I was playing on easy, but you'd be surprised how many people ram their heads into walls in the prologue before remembering they have a magic shield, heh.

 

[-Seraph-]

The comic was somewhat amusing, but to me it also pointed out something wrong with players these days. They expect everything handed to them in some tutorial, and god forbid you read the manual or pull up the in game journal that tells you everything you need to know. The game wasn't that difficult to figure out...at all. In the time it takes you to download/install the game, you could read the manual and already have a firm understanding of the controls, combat, powers and all the stuff.

I really don't like to come off as some snob or douche, but a lot of complaints in regards to this crap can be easily resolved by taking a few minutes and reading the damn instructions. The manual by extension, is the tutorial in written form, so USE IT.

Well the thing is you shouldn't have to look in the manual. The manual should be supplementary reference, and a game should be able to teach you exactly what you need to know. If you have to go look it up outside of the game in order to get something done, the game has failed to teach you. There's a reason that game manuals are dying, and that's because they're starting to become obsolete as games get more efficient at teaching you the ropes.

That's just a dumb excuse for just jumping into the game without knowing jack all about it. Games have manuals for a reason, and in the time it takes to install the damn game, you could easily read the manual and know everything you need to know.

"You shouldn't have to look in the manual" makes no sense because that entirely defeats the purpose of a manual. The game does tech you what you need to know as well with on screen notes off to the side and the IN GAME JOURNAL that tells you everything. There is no excuse at all at that point to complain about the game not giving you the info you need.

The game did nothing wrong, people these days are just too damn lazy to take a few minutes and read.

 

[Emergent System]

How can people who are avid computer gamers be this bad at games? It's unbelievable. I died twice during my first time through the tutorial on normal, once when trying to attack 5 enemies at the same time without really knowing how the system worked, and once to the dragon quick time event. I never even used my signs, because the first few times I used them I kept missing my targets, so I gave up (and I never tried using the shield sign).

I'm not even that good a gamer. I though Bayonetta was too hard.

The guys who fail at the witcher 2 must be idiots who have failed to completely understand something vital to their success, though I can't understand what that could possibly be.

[edit] and I never drank potions through the entire game, except for to prepare for the kraken boss (since I got told by the quest to do so), and in the dwarf tunnels to be able to see in the dark (I still had my first 4 cat potions). To say that you'd *need* them to complete any part of the game on normal is crazy. Takes like half a minute to meditate->drink->watch him drink->leave meditate, so I never bothered.

[edit2] oh, right, I also died another time during the tutorial, when the dragon first attacked I ran straight into some fire and died. So 3 times.

 

[MisterShine]

The game did nothing wrong, people these days are just too damn lazy to take a few minutes and read.

For a solid decade now pretty much every game in existence either has a regular tutorial or practice mode, or the first level or two is about teaching the player the mechanics of the game. Even reading a manual just isn't good enough, nor is it particularly fun for most people. Why NOT have the tutorial on how to play the game be IN the game? Most especially for people who've never played this type of game before but want to get into it?

NOT including this kind of instruction to the player is what's lazy, and just bad game design, don't make excuses just because you're a fan.

For the record: I'm enjoying the Witcher 2's difficulty myself, its been a while since I had a good challenge. They just started off on the very wrong foot.

 

[Danceofmasks]

I played the game on hard ... and no, you don't need to use potions at all.
I did what anyone who plays RPGs should do. Check the inventory.

Y'know, the game starts you with explosive fire traps and bombs that stun.

Anyone who hasn't come across a "this fight is tough, I better use my items" scenario in RPGs is a fucking n00b.

 

[-Seraph-]

The game did nothing wrong, people these days are just too damn lazy to take a few minutes and read.

For a solid decade now pretty much every game in existence either has a regular tutorial or practice mode, or the first level or two is about teaching the player the mechanics of the game. Even reading a manual just isn't good enough, nor is it particularly fun for most people. Why NOT have the tutorial on how to play the game be IN the game? Most especially for people who've never played this type of game before but want to get into it?

NOT including this kind of instruction to the player is what's lazy, and just bad game design, don't make excuses just because you're a fan.

For the record: I'm enjoying the Witcher 2's difficulty myself, its been a while since I had a good challenge. They just started off on the very wrong foot.

The game DOES have a tutorial, it's just it can be a particularly difficult one. Seriously, reading the manual or checking the in game journal is not difficult and takes no time at all. If people find it such an inconvenience to RTFM while the game is installing, then that's just being lazy, period.

I thought at the very least PC gamers would be wise enough with this kind of nonsense. The manual is there as a heads up for the player, use it people.

 

[Knife]

What? Are you kidding me? The only hard part was escaping the dragon. And even that wasn't as hard after you know what to do.(Then again I started my gaming career with Battletoads...so my standards are a bit skewed)
Anything you could ever need to know about combat in Witcher is written in the journal. In the first fight you don't even have to do anything, the soldiers will do all the work. And the fight with Aryan could be avoided alltogether by choosing the right dialogue options (my second playthrough I killed all the soldiers alone).
The only hard part is the dragon, and it has almost nothing to do with combat directly - you just have to time your running and dodging.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

battling without any kind of potions or powers?

your an average soldier who will take a beating from a gang of baddies

premeditating with potions/traps/powers?

you will rape on baddies just like any other game.

more or less this game is awesome, just punishing if you don't do something exactly right.

patience is also key in this game

 

[cieply]

I played the game on hard ... and no, you don't need to use potions at all.
I did what anyone who plays RPGs should do. Check the inventory.

Y'know, the game starts you with explosive fire traps and bombs that stun.

Anyone who hasn't come across a "this fight is tough, I better use my items" scenario in RPGs is a fucking n00b.

QFT

I don't know, it's like everyone is spoiled nowadays. I died quite a few times but each time was a learning experience. It meant I'm doing something wrong and my skills arent adequate to the challange. Thus, to overcome such an obstacle I had to think and play better. And this is how satisfaction is born, through honing your skills. Meanwhile it seems that nowadays it's just a source of frustration. People are used to breezing through games, enjoying them the same ways you enjoy movies. Old school gaming was about stepping up your game. About moments when you thought "How the fuck am I supposed to do this". Anyone remembers fights even in Baldurs Gate 2?
I for one, respect TW2 for bringing that feeling of challange back to the RPG genre.

 

[Slings and Arrows]

The comic was somewhat amusing, but to me it also pointed out something wrong with players these days. They expect everything handed to them in some tutorial, and god forbid you read the manual or pull up the in game journal that tells you everything you need to know. The game wasn't that difficult to figure out...at all. In the time it takes you to download/install the game, you could read the manual and already have a firm understanding of the controls, combat, powers and all the stuff.

I really don't like to come off as some snob or douche, but a lot of complaints in regards to this crap can be easily resolved by taking a few minutes and reading the damn instructions. The manual by extension, is the tutorial in written form, so USE IT.

Well the thing is you shouldn't have to look in the manual. The manual should be supplementary reference, and a game should be able to teach you exactly what you need to know. If you have to go look it up outside of the game in order to get something done, the game has failed to teach you. There's a reason that game manuals are dying, and that's because they're starting to become obsolete as games get more efficient at teaching you the ropes.

That's just a dumb excuse for just jumping into the game without knowing jack all about it. Games have manuals for a reason, and in the time it takes to install the damn game, you could easily read the manual and know everything you need to know.

"You shouldn't have to look in the manual" makes no sense because that entirely defeats the purpose of a manual. The game does tech you what you need to know as well with on screen notes off to the side and the IN GAME JOURNAL that tells you everything. There is no excuse at all at that point to complain about the game not giving you the info you need.

The game did nothing wrong, people these days are just too damn lazy to take a few minutes and read.

This. I actually agree that most console games should be able to teach you how to play them in an hour or so of gameplay or less but we are talking about a PC exclusive (until the future port) that is notoriously complex BY THE STANDARD OF PC GAMES which already might as well be controlled by telekinesis and the ancient language of magic for all a newbie fresh off the consoles can understand. But that's just the nature of the platform. You have a keyboard so you use it and so in designing for PC you get a more complex game, and The Witcher devs were particularly ambitious in striving for complexity. I honestly have read damn near every manual for every game I've ever bought and then not paid attention during the half hour of tutorial or whatever because it just translates easier for me to read and then trial and error if the language is confusing. I think that if people got what they were bargaining for here that they would start bitching about the game holding your hand because it seems to me like the complexity of control would start to add a whole lot of time spent with the game patiently explaining to the player's dumb ass exactly which buttons do what in which situation. On the whole I consider it better to just read the god damn literature rather than ***** that the game didn't slap me across the gob as soon as I started playing and explain how to do everything verbally. Hell some of the joy in playing a game is figuring out the different levels of depth at which you can work the mechanics.