Penny Arcade on The Witcher 2

[Waaghpowa]

Spoiler: Long Winded Response

I think we can all agree that the console version will surely hold your hand more as consoles generally aim for a larger audience. My issue with the console version is not that there will be a console version of this game, but that they might pull a Bioware. To clarify what I mean when I say "Pull a Bioware": I fear for the fact that they might take some of the criticisms of the game from console players too far and change ridiculous things that inevitably oversimplify the game which then translates over to the PC version. Example: The whole deal with inventory in Mass Effect 2. I get that it's a third person shooter, but it's still a sci fi RPG. Having an inventory filled with different guns, armours and weapon/armour mods added an RPG element to the game. Removing it makes the game feel like Gears of War without the gratuitous gore. Not to mention smaller environments and that whole deal with the elevators. What difference does it make to replace watching your characters ride an elevator with a loading screen? You're still sitting there staring at something and NOT playing the game. It at least gave you perspective on how large the areas were.

Though I'm not claiming that the console RPG crowd is dumb by any means, but it seems that developers like Bioware are doing these things to their most recent RPG's because they assume that the majority of their fan base is simple. So they design the game to be as simple as possible to require as little thought as possible. RPG's should have you making serious decisions, weighing the pro's and con's when considering talents, skills and equipment.

Dragon Age 2 is the most recent example, though I enjoyed it for what it was, I couldn't help but feel like there was something missing, wanting more. By comparison Dragon Age 2 is probably the most boring Bioware game I've played to date, it being the first one of their titles I couldn't play a second time through.

The gist of my thought is: I'm not against having a console version of the Witcher 2 available. I just really hope that making a console version of The Witcher 2 wont compromise the quality of future Witcher titles, because this is the first RPG I've played in quite some time that was truly satisfying.

By the way, I love the Mass Effect series, despite my criticism.

With you 100% there, man. I loved Mass Effect and DA:O, liked Mass Effect 2, and kinda hated DA2. I'm just hoping the sales numbers will speak to EA and encourage them to back off a little and let Bioware do their thing. Give them more time to make RPGs with some depth, rather than reducing them to the level of simple action-adventure games.

It's precisely the reason why I hate every Fable game after the first one, they don't do anything but beat it into the ground and add more bullshit good or bad choices. I thought it was kind of insulting when the Lionhead team thought that increasing the difficulty and improving graphics on Fable 3 would be sufficient to appease PC gamers.

 

[Danceofmasks]

On the subject of console versions of Witcher 2 ...
I have encountered quite a few bugs in the game, some of which involves the responsiveness of the controls.

I reckon, if they fix the bugs and the UI glitches, the work is mostly done.
The game plays quite well on a controller.

Maybe add a couple of forced pause sections at, say, the wall "this is a good place to use Axii on the big dude" or "use Quen before rushing those archers" or "this guy with a shield, Yrden him then backstab him for double damage"

BUT, they should not otherwise nerf the game. At all.
This game is way easier than Bayonetta.

 

[Trolldor]

The only time I died at all during the prologue was during the sequence where you're running from a dragon, and that was mostly because I read the tutorial prompt and then was looking for an indication that I should press the right mouse button - no such prompt appeared however. So on the 3rd go I just ran and pressed that button whenever it looked like the dragon was going to take a swipe at me, and that did the trick.

Of course I was playing on easy, but you'd be surprised how many people ram their heads into walls in the prologue before remembering they have a magic shield, heh.

Thing about that dragon is I can make it without ever pressing the right mouse key. Seems random as to whether or not you'll actually get hit.

 

[Danceofmasks]

The only time I died at all during the prologue was during the sequence where you're running from a dragon, and that was mostly because I read the tutorial prompt and then was looking for an indication that I should press the right mouse button - no such prompt appeared however. So on the 3rd go I just ran and pressed that button whenever it looked like the dragon was going to take a swipe at me, and that did the trick.

Of course I was playing on easy, but you'd be surprised how many people ram their heads into walls in the prologue before remembering they have a magic shield, heh.

Thing about that dragon is I can make it without ever pressing the right mouse key. Seems random as to whether or not you'll actually get hit.

Eh, I just hold down "S" the whole time, and click RMB every time it comes up.
Guaranteed to work that way.

 

[Coldie]

Then you must be one of the lucky few cause all of my friends (and internet acquaintances) have the same problem, that is with and without programs such as game booster.

I am hoping for a patch cause i am not one to waste a purchase.

If you have a physical disk, then it might be the DRM's fault. Allegedly, the SecuROM DRM used in the retail version of the game is the framerate killer.

The next patch (1.1) is promising to improve FPS by up to 30%, with the biggest improvement for retail versions.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

The gist of my thought is: I'm not against having a console version of the Witcher 2 available. I just really hope that making a console version of The Witcher 2 wont compromise the quality of future Witcher titles, because this is the first RPG I've played in quite some time that was truly satisfying.

I don't think there's much chance of that happening under CD Projekt's current ownership and management. From other things they've done, should The Witcher 2 sell poorly on consoles, they're more likely to say "You don't like our game? Well fuck you because we've got enough gamers who DO like it that we don't need you" than to start chopping things out to try for wider appeal. These are basically the same guys who stuck their thumbs in the eyes of some rather large distributors over being forced to charge higher prices than they wanted for digital copies of The Witcher 2 and remove IP-based region validation from their sales scheme. If you were to ask me which developer is least likely to start changing the style of their games to chase wider appeal even if they went multiplatform, CD Projekt are 2nd on my list... and the top 3 names are all Eastern European developers... must be all that socialism they grew up with or something.

Of course there's also the possibility that enough console gamers out there are actually looking for a challenging and engaging game that TW2 console version turns a decent profit for CD Projekt and everyone can go home happy.

 

[Jandau]

I don't mind a challenge, but the game would have benefited from a more gradual introduction of gameplay mechanics. The fact that the controls aren't very responsive doesn't help. Also, Geralt seems to do whatever he wants at times and ignores input. For instance, I block an attack and then hit Forward + Attack to do that Jump-to-the-dude-and-stab-him move, but Geralt just does the regular attack, swings through empty air and gets hit by the counterattack.

And then there's the dragon. After figuring out the basics of combat, getting a handle on how to stay alive (roll around until people stop swinging at you for a second, then Aard + attack), I get to the dragon section...

THERE'S A DRAGON!

RUN!

GET TO COVER!

SHIT! THERE ARE MORE ENEMY SOLDIERS! (who don't seem overly concerned about the dragon)

YOU'RE ON FIRE!

RUN!

YOU'RE STILL ON FIRE!

YOU ARE DEAD, MORON!

And I'm sitting there wondering what the hell just happened? Am I supposed to hide? Fight the soldiers? Run like hell?

The poorly optimized graphics engine doesn't help matters. My machine isn't rubbish, I run Crysis 2 on Med-High, but this game I've turned almost everything down to a minimum and I still can't get a decent framerate. I'll have to drop everything, but the game doesn't look nice enough to justify this level of hardware hunger...

P.S. Don't get me wrong, I like the game. It's just a bit frustrating.

 

[mad825]

I died more through QTEs that I did through dying in battle >__>

seriously though, I did not find the QTEs fun at all.

 

[Delusibeta]

Also, is anyone else getting a horrible frame-rate? i am on a pretty decent rig and despite playing on a low-setting i still cannot turn around or even move without everything grinding to a halt.

It's either a driver problem (uninstall any 3D drivers if you're using a Nvidia card, turn off any multi-card settings you're running) or a DRM problem (wait for the next patch). Or just turn off Ubersampling (it's CD Projekt using trollphysics to make your PC go slow).

 

[Alma Mare]

There are pop-up tips. There's a detailed command explanations in the Journal. There's a manual. What else is it needed? Classes on the subject?

 

[Shamanic Rhythm]

If you watch Lewis from the Yogscast on his playthrough of the game, he makes a few sloppy moves here and there which account for some of his deaths, but other times you clearly see him parrying and getting hit regardless, because the game fails to explain that parrying is tied to mana. Or he runs into a fight, takes a bit of damage and attempts to use a potion - only to find he cannot, and then much later have it explained that potions have to be used BEFORE battle.

The Witcher 2's problem is not that it's too difficult at the start, but rather that it handles some RPG conventions in a unique way and doesn't bother to explain it in-game. I know that at this point the old school gamers start to whine about how consoles have ruined games by making them hold your hand with everything, but I literally cannot think of a single good reason why it is better to learn of a game mechanic through the manual than by having the game itself introduce you to it. Either way you will still need basic comprehension skills, and the in-game method is far more streamlined and efficient than either reading the entire manual in advance and attempting to recall it, or hitting pause and hunting for a particular key command. There really is no way that modern tutorials have contributed to games being 'dumbed down' by integrating the player's education with the actual gameplay.

Contrary to defences of this oversight that revolve around the theory that The Witcher 2 is unapologetically difficult, most reviews I have seen have expressed the sentiment that the game starts out challenging but doesn't effectively scale in difficulty. In the end, who cares. As soon as I can beg, steal or commandeer someone's PC I will be playing this game.

 

[abija]

It's not about tutorials or manuals or w/e. It's about some people getting used to beat the game whatever they chose to do, so they keep trying same dumb thing over and over again and when it fails they blame the designers.
Also for some reason the message "you died, load last save" is seen as a personal affront.

 

[Gibboniser]

I'm playing on hard atm, fighting these wraiths, I'm not that far into the game, however, enough to finally get the hang of it. I just advise liberal use of Quen, potions, and the space bar.

 

[Jandau]

I'd like to revise my earlier statement and say that Witcher 2 has some atrociously TERRIBLE design. I'm talking about one specific sequence, the second dragon attack. For those of you who haven't played it, it's a quicktime event section where you're supposed to run in a straight line and press the right mouse button when prompted. Sounds easy, right?

WELL IT ISN'T, because the person making it was functionally retarded. The quicktime prompts? Randomly decide not to work. You are dead. Running in a straight line? Well, Geralt is aimed slightly off center and regularly gets stuck on terrain. If this happens, you are dead. If you try to center him, you fall slightly behind and you are dead. Sometimes, you are dead for no apparent reason. No prompt on the screen, you are running and not getting stuck and the dragon just kills you.

This is easily one of the worst sections of a game I've seen in a long time. My skill at the game isn't being tested. My reflexes aren't being tested. It's not even a trial-and-error memorization. It's a 50% chance of dropping dead every 2 seconds even if you do everything right. This part can't be skipped, can't be avoided and I can only wait for my nerves to cool down before I go do it over and over and over and over again until I luck out and make it through.

And then the game will probably crash and I'll have to do it all over again.

 

[Gildan Bladeborn]

This is a recount of that spot and how a console gamer reacts towards it, personally I found it hilarious to behold:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PG1kBrrvPpA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCjzA-C647o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9-j148iT8g

I would like to thank you for directing my attention towards the unbridled hilarity contained within those videos - they make me feel smarter by proxy!

I figured for sure when he decided to use Quen that he surely must have figured out how signs work, but no dice! Bwah ha ha ha ha!!

...whew, oh man is that funny. I think the self-righteous ranting about developers squandering potential as we watch him try the same stupid tactics over and over and over without realizing why they're stupid is the best part really.

 

[Gildan Bladeborn]

It's not about tutorials or manuals or w/e. It's about some people getting used to beat the game whatever they chose to do, so they keep trying same dumb thing over and over again and when it fails they blame the designers.
Also for some reason the message "you died, load last save" is seen as a personal affront.

The video playthrough I'm watching now certainly attests to that mindset! Seriously, it's like he's incapable of pattern recognition or something.

Edit: Annnd now he can't even figure out how to equip armor because he's evidently never even encountered the inventory screen. At all. This is priceless, it's like he can't READ.

 

[Katana314]

In the old days of PC gaming, manuals worked simply because people were willing to invest time in it, but they're not necessary now that our tutorials are smart enough to work with the player through a particularly easy learning part of the game. You know; the standard "crouch under the low barrier to learn the Crouch button" and stuff.

Be honest though - have those "particularly easy" sections of the game wherein the (usually mandatory) tutorial insults your intelligence by making you do painfully obvious things in contrived scenarios, have they ever actually been fun?

I get it, modern game design is geared around ensuring that just about everyone who picks a game up will be able to see it through to the inevitable conclusion, but I hail from an era where finishing games was rare because they were bloody hard, so making me sit through the usual tutorial rigamarole for anything less complicated than a bloody flight simulator is only going to make me resent you for it. I know how to bloody well play video games - the only thing I ever need to learn are the controls and the specifics of any unique mechanics a game might have.

Looking at what the designers of The Witcher 2 gave us, namely trial by fire in a bloody skirmish on a castle's walls, that is just way the hell more fun than a series of contrived scenarios wherein all the individual gameplay elements surface one by one would have been (it was certainly a lot more fun than the corresponding tutorial from the original game was). Yes it was hard (there are difficulty settings for a reason, and it's not like there's some stupid achievement for never turning things down to easy until you get the hang of it), but it was hard in the sense that if you fail you really have no one to blame but yourself. It was genuinely refreshing to play a "tutorial" that would provide me with the information I needed but otherwise expected me to get shit done on my own.

To answer your question, "have they been fun"?

First scenario is that the game is completely new. It's not a rehash of any FPS from previous, it has a completely inventive combat system, and takes some getting used to. In that scenario, you cannot say "I know how to play this", and everyone will be on equal footing when they first start playing. So in this case it's fine to treat the player as stupid initially, and the tutorial can be fun as you start to grasp interesting new gameplay mechanics.

Second scenario is that the mechanics are common. It takes cues from Super Mario, or Halo, or anything like that, and brings them to a new game. It's still fine for this game to have a tutorial new and old players will have fun with. It's a more difficult game design challenge, but here's the facts: A tutorial CAN cater to new players, allow veteran players to get through it quickly, possibly without them even realizing it's a tutorial, and still be fun for both.

Here's what I don't get though. If The Witcher IS introducing new gameplay mechanics for combat and such, then people; ALL people; need to learn them and get used to them from a starting standpoint of "I have no idea how this works". If it's not, then why the heck did they bother making it?

 

[Keava]

I'd like to revise my earlier statement and say that Witcher 2 has some atrociously TERRIBLE design. I'm talking about one specific sequence, the second dragon attack. For those of you who haven't played it, it's a quicktime event section where you're supposed to run in a straight line and press the right mouse button when prompted. Sounds easy, right?

WELL IT ISN'T, because the person making it was functionally retarded. The quicktime prompts? Randomly decide not to work. You are dead. Running in a straight line? Well, Geralt is aimed slightly off center and regularly gets stuck on terrain. If this happens, you are dead. If you try to center him, you fall slightly behind and you are dead. Sometimes, you are dead for no apparent reason. No prompt on the screen, you are running and not getting stuck and the dragon just kills you.

This is easily one of the worst sections of a game I've seen in a long time. My skill at the game isn't being tested. My reflexes aren't being tested. It's not even a trial-and-error memorization. It's a 50% chance of dropping dead every 2 seconds even if you do everything right. This part can't be skipped, can't be avoided and I can only wait for my nerves to cool down before I go do it over and over and over and over again until I luck out and make it through.

And then the game will probably crash and I'll have to do it all over again.

I did that sequence about 5 times, on various difficulties, never ever had a problem with it. Not once did the right click not work. Not once i died on it. The only sequences i have issues with in terms of balancing is the first time with the dragon when you have to run between the covered areas to avoid fire - 1 second delay can mean you will get burned at the last step, the other was the chapter 2 fog sequence with stupidly placed save points and enemies pushing you into the fire if you don't instantly run around them.

As Tycho wrote however, i don't think the game is for everyone, it's aimed towards people that used to play games where 1 mistake would force you re load and re think your strategy. You don't pay attention - you get smacked. You try to brute force - you get smacked. You don't make use of tools available - you get smacked. You can even die very early into the game on being an ass during dialogue sequence.
So far, after two play through, one as full alchemy, one as sword/magic builds i can say that the trees are fairly well balanced, each skill tree makes it possible to complete the game without turning it into impossible challenge, hell there is a guy who finished the game using nothing but a pick axe and one a guy who finished it on insane mode.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

Or just turn off Ubersampling (it's CD Projekt using trollphysics to make your PC go slow).

Ubersampling gave Geralt a gimpy leg when I used it. Every 5th or 6th step he'd just kind of misstep.