People Don't Like to Think
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I don't like to be challenged when reading, watching, or listening to things, simply because I'm the kind of person who will think "This is taking too long to get going". If I want a challenge, I'll play MGS4 allowing myself only to use the stun knife and the solid eye.
Interesting, I had to analyse the documentary of Status Anxiety by de Botton for an assignment. For some reason I hadn't considered that people might really care what a group of strangers on the internet thought of them. I guess it isn't unnatural to care even instinctual, and I think I do a little, but it is not a strong enough consideration to change what I want to say.More Fun To Compute said:
It isn't the length of the post that matters to me, but it's easier to deal with a generalisation and call a long post a thought out opinion. If someone conveys their thoughts concisely, that is even better.JohnSmith said:
If the same short responses are applied to each thread, which it seems they are, then my interest in the stream of thought fades. I can only read the same one liners so many times before it is no longer of any interest.
Thanks for that, bro.Echer123 said:
News to me, I wanted to change my name so I made a new account. Besides, what if more than one person uses the computer and forum. If my brother has an account, I get banned?Azraellod said:
You're quite right, people don't want to think. They don't want to make the mental efforts to improve themselves or to improve their quality of life. Which means those of us making choices on behalf of the wider populace need to be very very careful about something as simple as the default options - even on something as mundane as a mobile phone.
Anyone UK-based may remember Trigger Happy TV, about a decade back, doing public prank comedy often featuring the original Nokia ring-tone because it was so ubiquitous precisely because it was the default option on the 3210 and 3310 phones.
Although flatly, you are ranting - and you're doing so because to some extent you are missing some of the point: sometimes people don't like to think. And who's to say that's a bad thing?
Of course, ranting is not such a bad thing either. If nothing else, it gives us a window into some of the weirder, wilder thoughts from other human beings. It helps us realise that sometimes they do think.
Anyone UK-based may remember Trigger Happy TV, about a decade back, doing public prank comedy often featuring the original Nokia ring-tone because it was so ubiquitous precisely because it was the default option on the 3210 and 3310 phones.
Although flatly, you are ranting - and you're doing so because to some extent you are missing some of the point: sometimes people don't like to think. And who's to say that's a bad thing?
Of course, ranting is not such a bad thing either. If nothing else, it gives us a window into some of the weirder, wilder thoughts from other human beings. It helps us realise that sometimes they do think.
Personally, I disagree with your assessment of music - and of literature too. There is something impressive to achieve to make your music stand out, to be memorable, to hook people in, to have an interesting introduction. I quite like the introduction to Fly Away by Lenny Krawitz - partly because it allows me to test my headphones (the opening riff should only play in one channel with drums joining in the other).
There are all sorts of "artistic" (as opposed to "popular") pieces of art (be that music, literature, painting, or even video gaming) which are seen by certain sub-sets of the audience as being more talented, more complex, more compelling. And that is good, it caters to a different audience, sometimes sucking in less "artistic" people and showing them something they had never considered.
To reference a personal anecdote: a close friend of mine made me a mix CD for my eighteenth birthday. I still have it tucked away somewhere but after 12 tracks of Muse, Incubus, Chilis, Dave Matthews and Tracy Chapman; it closes with a piece by Rachmaninov. And it's the best CD I own.
Turning back to literature I'd like to pose a question: would Stephanie Meyer or J K Rowling or even Terry Pratchett be where they are today if they weren't talented writers?
Writing after all is a medium where physical appearances and image are relatively irrelevant. It is a medium which is undoubtedly difficult to break into. Perhaps secretly each had an insider who helped facilitate the doors at various publishers swinging open but flatly you still don't sell millions of books of utterly talentless drivel - whatever the more "artistic" folks might like to claim.
Sadly this is basically our point of difference, given that you've already stated:
Given it's already been mentioned here, why not Fight Club? Despite being surprisingly cerebral in an interestingly distasteful way it's been a colossal success. Last I checked it was up with Shawshank Redemption and Anchorman in the top 3 films on my Facebook network. There are probably better films. There are probably deeper films. But it's a good start.
There are all sorts of "artistic" (as opposed to "popular") pieces of art (be that music, literature, painting, or even video gaming) which are seen by certain sub-sets of the audience as being more talented, more complex, more compelling. And that is good, it caters to a different audience, sometimes sucking in less "artistic" people and showing them something they had never considered.
To reference a personal anecdote: a close friend of mine made me a mix CD for my eighteenth birthday. I still have it tucked away somewhere but after 12 tracks of Muse, Incubus, Chilis, Dave Matthews and Tracy Chapman; it closes with a piece by Rachmaninov. And it's the best CD I own.
Turning back to literature I'd like to pose a question: would Stephanie Meyer or J K Rowling or even Terry Pratchett be where they are today if they weren't talented writers?
Writing after all is a medium where physical appearances and image are relatively irrelevant. It is a medium which is undoubtedly difficult to break into. Perhaps secretly each had an insider who helped facilitate the doors at various publishers swinging open but flatly you still don't sell millions of books of utterly talentless drivel - whatever the more "artistic" folks might like to claim.
Sadly this is basically our point of difference, given that you've already stated:
and all I can really offer is a personal claim that both should be valued. The ability to enrapture the mass audience requires no less talent than making an interesting philosophical point and that true greatness is possibly best defined as the ability to do both.
Given it's already been mentioned here, why not Fight Club? Despite being surprisingly cerebral in an interestingly distasteful way it's been a colossal success. Last I checked it was up with Shawshank Redemption and Anchorman in the top 3 films on my Facebook network. There are probably better films. There are probably deeper films. But it's a good start.
The grim truth is that the vast amount of conversation, be it face-to-face, text, phone, email, forum; is utterly pointless. Most of what we discuss doesn't actually matter to the other person/people, it's not important.
Essentially most of us discuss all sorts of pointless things about the little niggles or minor irrelevances in life. To save someone the nihilism: it's all pretty unimportant when you get down to it. But so much of what gets discussed is so utterly trivial it's incredible. But most of us have grown up needing that contact, needing to share the mundane details, to have some amount of connection in our little lives. Who knows, maybe the rise of atheism and nihilism are to blame - leaving us short of the relaxed confidence of those who truly believe they're catered for beyond this life.
I can't really speak for everyone else I guess, but I need it. I need my friends and I need to be able to discuss utter crap with them. Because I need to know it's not just me, that other people have the little problems and the stupid people and the arrogant customers and the irritating parents and the psychopathic ex-girlfriend and the future-anxiety.
Essentially most of us discuss all sorts of pointless things about the little niggles or minor irrelevances in life. To save someone the nihilism: it's all pretty unimportant when you get down to it. But so much of what gets discussed is so utterly trivial it's incredible. But most of us have grown up needing that contact, needing to share the mundane details, to have some amount of connection in our little lives. Who knows, maybe the rise of atheism and nihilism are to blame - leaving us short of the relaxed confidence of those who truly believe they're catered for beyond this life.
I can't really speak for everyone else I guess, but I need it. I need my friends and I need to be able to discuss utter crap with them. Because I need to know it's not just me, that other people have the little problems and the stupid people and the arrogant customers and the irritating parents and the psychopathic ex-girlfriend and the future-anxiety.
Hmm, now I'm extremely curious as to what the original name of this thread was.
One thing, your post didn't set a direction for the discussion, it was most definitely a rant. However, like you, I support rants, I think rants are a good thing. If one is capable of keeping good grammar and formatting so as to spare the eyes of the reader from pain, then a rant is the barest, truest form of an opinion anyone is capable of expressing. And one I oftentimes indulge myself in.
However, they make absolutely terrible conversation starters, as a rant, by it's very nature it doesn't have a point, it's an opinion, not a persuasion. So overall they make good answers to topics, but bad introductions to topics.
As far as Escapists not challenging themselves mentally, I think both Emilie Diabolica and yourself have excellent points. You are each partially correct about the population of The Escapist. Some people come here to relax, and some come here to enjoy intellectual discussion, as this is one of the few forums where it occurs with some regularity. Of course I'm saying that from a relative viewpoint. Intellectual debate threads are still rare here, but at least they occur, which is more than I can say for the majority of forums on the internet.
And finally, as for myself, I actually must plead guilty to both extreme physical laziness and extreme mental stimulation. There are times, many times in fact, when I will come across a thread where either the opening topic, or some particular post, or several particular posts, or some combination thereof encites in my a great mental reaction. I will start arguing with them aloud in my brain, if you know what I mean. I will focus entirely on their chain of logic and the faults I see in it, (or at least how my logic contradicts theirs), and will formulate a well-spoken intelligent rant meant to enumerate them of my opinion. Unfortunately, 90% of the time I don't actually type it. You see, I put great energy into it, but it all occurs in my mind, as I can think so much faster than I can type that it feels quite unsatisfactory to do both at the same time and thus slow down my train of thought when I am so impassioned and afterwards, when I have satisfactorily made the rant in my mind (or out loud if it was a subject I cared enough about) I have lost the motivation to make it again in written form. In this sense I see myself as part of the problem you are referring to of people not putting forth enough interesting conversation, though certainly not for the reasons you suspected. However, there is the 10% of the time I do feel it is necessary to post my response and thus, this, and certain other, rants exist on this site by my creation.
By the way, I realize I am backtracking, but on the subject of music, I am capable of enjoying both long well-structured pieces that require attention from the listener to be fully enjoyed, as you are, but I am also perfectly capable of enjoying a shorter, simpler listening experience. There is definitely a lot of skill that goes into composing complex pieces that create anticipation, but surely you can acknowledge that a short piece that is capable of eliciting an immediate emotional reaction from it's listener requires a different sort of skill. There is a ton of really terrible music out there. Music that, for lack of a better term, blows chunks. It may not be the type of music that you're talking about, but I can guarantee that everyone including you, including me, has heard some really bad music at some point in time. Likewise occasionally the bad music will become extremely popular because it's "catchy". (Not all bad music is catchy, not all pop is bad music, but some of it is). The type of people that listen that are the type that truly deserve scorn. But there is plenty of music that is still simple and is simultaneously good. There is nothing wrong with simplicity, as even simple things (such as a particularly well-played 10-second riff) can inspire thought and emotion.
I can't comment on the TV shows as I watch very little television, and the programs I do watch are very really thought-provoking as I primarily watch them to shut down my brain and relax for a while, maybe laugh at some Family Guy slapstick.
On that note, you can't expect people, even the smartest most motivated people, to always constantly be analyzing everything, no one can run on overdrive 24/7, it is medically proven that relaxing is good for your body.
Oh and one last thing, it's a tad condescending to finish your opening post with "but I don't expect any of you to even read it," at least in my opinion.
~Cheers
One thing, your post didn't set a direction for the discussion, it was most definitely a rant. However, like you, I support rants, I think rants are a good thing. If one is capable of keeping good grammar and formatting so as to spare the eyes of the reader from pain, then a rant is the barest, truest form of an opinion anyone is capable of expressing. And one I oftentimes indulge myself in.
However, they make absolutely terrible conversation starters, as a rant, by it's very nature it doesn't have a point, it's an opinion, not a persuasion. So overall they make good answers to topics, but bad introductions to topics.
As far as Escapists not challenging themselves mentally, I think both Emilie Diabolica and yourself have excellent points. You are each partially correct about the population of The Escapist. Some people come here to relax, and some come here to enjoy intellectual discussion, as this is one of the few forums where it occurs with some regularity. Of course I'm saying that from a relative viewpoint. Intellectual debate threads are still rare here, but at least they occur, which is more than I can say for the majority of forums on the internet.
And finally, as for myself, I actually must plead guilty to both extreme physical laziness and extreme mental stimulation. There are times, many times in fact, when I will come across a thread where either the opening topic, or some particular post, or several particular posts, or some combination thereof encites in my a great mental reaction. I will start arguing with them aloud in my brain, if you know what I mean. I will focus entirely on their chain of logic and the faults I see in it, (or at least how my logic contradicts theirs), and will formulate a well-spoken intelligent rant meant to enumerate them of my opinion. Unfortunately, 90% of the time I don't actually type it. You see, I put great energy into it, but it all occurs in my mind, as I can think so much faster than I can type that it feels quite unsatisfactory to do both at the same time and thus slow down my train of thought when I am so impassioned and afterwards, when I have satisfactorily made the rant in my mind (or out loud if it was a subject I cared enough about) I have lost the motivation to make it again in written form. In this sense I see myself as part of the problem you are referring to of people not putting forth enough interesting conversation, though certainly not for the reasons you suspected. However, there is the 10% of the time I do feel it is necessary to post my response and thus, this, and certain other, rants exist on this site by my creation.
By the way, I realize I am backtracking, but on the subject of music, I am capable of enjoying both long well-structured pieces that require attention from the listener to be fully enjoyed, as you are, but I am also perfectly capable of enjoying a shorter, simpler listening experience. There is definitely a lot of skill that goes into composing complex pieces that create anticipation, but surely you can acknowledge that a short piece that is capable of eliciting an immediate emotional reaction from it's listener requires a different sort of skill. There is a ton of really terrible music out there. Music that, for lack of a better term, blows chunks. It may not be the type of music that you're talking about, but I can guarantee that everyone including you, including me, has heard some really bad music at some point in time. Likewise occasionally the bad music will become extremely popular because it's "catchy". (Not all bad music is catchy, not all pop is bad music, but some of it is). The type of people that listen that are the type that truly deserve scorn. But there is plenty of music that is still simple and is simultaneously good. There is nothing wrong with simplicity, as even simple things (such as a particularly well-played 10-second riff) can inspire thought and emotion.
I can't comment on the TV shows as I watch very little television, and the programs I do watch are very really thought-provoking as I primarily watch them to shut down my brain and relax for a while, maybe laugh at some Family Guy slapstick.
On that note, you can't expect people, even the smartest most motivated people, to always constantly be analyzing everything, no one can run on overdrive 24/7, it is medically proven that relaxing is good for your body.
Oh and one last thing, it's a tad condescending to finish your opening post with "but I don't expect any of you to even read it," at least in my opinion.
~Cheers
I think it does apply. You were bothered, at least a little, that your thread didn't get much attention. I liked it when I saw the flashing new message thing that said that you paid attention to my post and replied.TheThinker said:
I suppose that it is possible to be more self concious and try to post in a way that is less obvious. A lot of people on these forums just want to know, for example, that everyone is listening to the same metal bands as them. They will just ignore me if I post saying that I don't listen to much metal but really like listening to Ege Bamyasi by Can.
I like long discussion (philosophical, and whatnot), but every time I type something I fear of the dreaded 'word': tl:dr (too long: didn't read).
Also, being sarcastic does not make one smart. It only makes one a smart ass. I can't tell you how many times I leave the discussion because someone does that.
Most of the time I just lurk around here and read other people's posts and understand a topic more because of that. I just don't really post very often due to the reasons above.
................and you get people who typed short posts that doesn't even make much sense, just to raise their post count. Having more post count does not make one's opinion more valid, nor does it make one more respectable regardless of what you may think.
My gawd I've waited a long time to be able to post something like this. Thanks a lot!
Also, being sarcastic does not make one smart. It only makes one a smart ass. I can't tell you how many times I leave the discussion because someone does that.
Most of the time I just lurk around here and read other people's posts and understand a topic more because of that. I just don't really post very often due to the reasons above.
................and you get people who typed short posts that doesn't even make much sense, just to raise their post count. Having more post count does not make one's opinion more valid, nor does it make one more respectable regardless of what you may think.
My gawd I've waited a long time to be able to post something like this. Thanks a lot!
i sometimes do this as well. i often wait for some threads to be posted in before i make my response. the thread in question was one i didn't see, so it's possible that i would have posted in it, but that would be a really unnerving post to make if no-one else had posted first.More Fun To Compute said:
i wouldn't do that. you generally get probation if you do that.Circus Ascendant said:
Well I'm obviously an "Offender" because I only made it half way through that before I got bored reading your massive rant. What you say is obvious, and anyone with an IQ higher than mayonnaise could have noticed that people are all impatient morons in some way or another. I myself know that people are dumb, including my self [I say dumb because I'm at a loss for a better word at the moment]
But in all honesty, I didn't stop reading for any of the reasons you posted, I just don't care.
But in all honesty, I didn't stop reading for any of the reasons you posted, I just don't care.
Why would you want to think? The intelligent mind that thinks sees everything, and it just so happens that all things can turn against you.
To quote dawn of war:
"A mind to small for doubt, is a blessed mind"
I despise thinking, though I cannot help it.
A bit more OT. Well yes, of course you will take the easy way, and as for not reading minds, talk for yourself, I have an uncanny ability to pick up on people and what they really mean, even over msn, it scares people. Though the masses are quite ignorant, it's due to them not suffering, all good things have a price, and realising the truth of the world, and taking everything such as friendship as it should be and not for granted requires pain. You don't know what you have, until you lose it, or you didn't have it before.
To quote dawn of war:
"A mind to small for doubt, is a blessed mind"
I despise thinking, though I cannot help it.
A bit more OT. Well yes, of course you will take the easy way, and as for not reading minds, talk for yourself, I have an uncanny ability to pick up on people and what they really mean, even over msn, it scares people. Though the masses are quite ignorant, it's due to them not suffering, all good things have a price, and realising the truth of the world, and taking everything such as friendship as it should be and not for granted requires pain. You don't know what you have, until you lose it, or you didn't have it before.
As a sarcastic person myself, I feel the need to reply, while you are right, sarcasm doesn't make someone smart, neither does it make them dumb, they may still have some interesting points to make in the conversation. Just ask nicely for them to not be so sarcastic. Sometimes they will stop, sometimes they won't. If they don't, then they're probably not showing you much respect and you're best off keeping your usual strategy and leaving, but hey, sometimes it works.Enfid said:
(And no, no part of that post was sarcastic, I tend not to be sarcastic when I'm serious ... Damn that sounded dumb, but it makes sense in my head)
I find it funny that he posted this on game forum, you know those things that are designed by game developers to challenge our thinking, and give us new experiences? Rather ironic, imo.
Hmm, you have made a thread I do not know quite how to think about :S. Yes, there is a large amount of arroganse in todays discussions often is constructed in such ways that everybody think themselves as the right one and all other are idiots. I prefer Sokrates wich when discussed humbly claimed that he knew that he knew nothing (by this qoute he humbly implied that he wasen't necesary the right in the discussion)
But as you yourself admit your claims seem to contradict itself. 'specially where you yourself proclaim to lump yourself into the same pile as everyone else.
It is a shame that we will not be able to meet, because I would love to discuss this face to face with you. because of my restricted english grammars I am not able to write all I wish to discuss about your thread here. All I can say is that I think you are wrong, but you are also right.
But as you yourself admit your claims seem to contradict itself. 'specially where you yourself proclaim to lump yourself into the same pile as everyone else.
It is a shame that we will not be able to meet, because I would love to discuss this face to face with you. because of my restricted english grammars I am not able to write all I wish to discuss about your thread here. All I can say is that I think you are wrong, but you are also right.
Great post. I don't think its that people don't want to think. Maybe its more about comfort? Picture this - someone comes home from a long day at work. Their job is very intellectually demanding and monotonous. They're tired and can't be bothered to cook so they get a take away. Does that mean that they don't appreciate a fine roast dinner? Of course not. They just can't be bothered to make it. After dinner they turn on the TV and watch Friends and relax. Does this mean they hate enlightening documentaries? Of course not. They just want something to watch to chill them out before bed.
You are right; it did bother me. Perhaps some need of self validation mixed with the confirming of my own beliefs (that people would not bother with any reply, or a quick one liner) that I talked about in the OP. Hey, I just learned something about myself.More Fun To Compute said:
Haha, glad you felt like posting this time. I got a tl:dr in this threadEnfid said:
You are right, in fact the entire OP was condescending, which I apologise for to those who did read it, I'd rather offend some people to get a reaction of some sort like I said in the OP. I suffer from your mind-faster-than-fingers problem a bit too, and normally by the end of the post I have forgotten some of my original thoughts. Like an esprit de l'escalier, I want to have said it, but can't without slipping it in via edit.Hexenwolf said:
It probably is, I shall now stop advertising it before I get a swift kick and ban.Azraellod said:
Well my point goes out to the people who complain about the level of discussion, but don't do anything about it. I've seen a thread that complained about unoriginal threads, without actually giving anything to discuss other than to agree. My rant was never intended to be totally against light hearted threads, but rather against people who think they want a heavy thread, but then do nothing to create or promote it. It may have come across differently. In fact on rereading through that section of my rant, I see that I suffered from fingers-slower-than-mind and missed saying that. Where I said "I find it more than mildly ironic..." then say nothing ironic, it was meant to say "I find it more than mildly ironic that given the amount of repeat discussion going on, and the severe lack of anything original popping up, and that people complain all the time about how the forum is degenerating and threads are always repeats, that none of these people actually come up with new material themselves and just complain and repeat complaints themselves."JemJar said:
So, basically I'm an idiot there.
They only ban the account for that if your original one was suspended/ banned and thus if this second one was just a way of jumping the ban. People have made multiple accounts before both for the hell of it and to get around a temporary or permanent ban. I'd give some examples if it wasn't for risk of facing mod wrath (PM me if you do want some).TheThinker said:
As for your discussion, there was a thread about threads that make you think and threads that don't yesterday, and I'll admit that it a lot of people do prefer the list threads and threads that are useless. I myself am no exception from this, as my post count would suggest, but I will accept it, and I'm trying to post less anyway and will only actually post in threads that I truly find interesting to post in. I also think that The Escapist has improved recently, with list threads becoming more frowned upon due to their lack of discusssion, but noone has to be here, and a lot of people would either go for the easy option or fuck off if that wasn't there, because they can't be bothered to put work into it (Nuke wrote something about it, but the post was so god damn long I doubt it would be worth going through just to pick out a minor quote [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.111856#1972468]). That has been complained about before.
As for what you said about Max, I'll admit that he does pretty much have a fan club now, but there are still a lot of posters who follow the rule of quality over quantity. Posters like Nuke Lassic, [user]Novajam[/user], [user]Simulord[/user], [user]Fire Daemon[/user] and (possibly the greatest example of this rule on The Escapist) [user]Therumancer[/user] I would love to see more appreciated for what they have said about various things over the years, but once again they can easily be ignored because of how much work they put into what they write. Posters who put little thought into what they write are more popular, but we're tolerating them less as well now (once again, PM me for examples).
I like to think that I put a lot of thought into what I say, but even I am willing to admit that a wall of text can put me off, and essays can be annoying to write, and that having to concentrate and think about art is annoying when you can just as easily have the meaning in your face, but I will still like to concentrate and put effort into my thoughts when I feel it is necessary to (like here).
In the end, I guess it just comes down to what you yourself actually want to do. Some people like heavy discussion, some like light discussion (the Warcry community actually gave up on heavy discussion and just decided that it wasn't for them). A lot of the people that have complained about the quality of posts do actually put a lot of thought into posts of their own and that is why they are disappointed when they see people don't put the same amount of effort into their own posts. And in turn when people who want to not need to think much or just be casual get complained at for not putting in the effort, they start to think of those people as elitist veterans; and thus we have this debate, as we have had many times before, between the veterans and the newcomers.
So whilst I do agree that some don't like to have to think much, I will say that some do as well, and they will keep on like that and we'll keep this debate up as well because of it. So I agree to an extent with what you have actually said.
Also, aren't you basically doing what the veterans before you complained about have done, in complaining about the quality of the forums yet not actually doing anything to help it? Just find that a bit hypocritical but I still do agree to some of what you wrote.
I feel that something this long and pointless requires a signature.
Zombie_Fish is a zombie and therefore lacks the ability to think.
Well not exactly, as I made some threads that were search bar approved for the sake of having a different topic brought up, but they were all met with minimal attention, which was one of the things that made me go on a rant. I saw all these threads a while back complaining about the lack of original threads, so I tried to make an original one or three, I was angry that those people felt the need to complain about it, but didn't seem to want to add anything in order to get something happening. Maybe I just didn't tickle their interest.Zombie_Fish said: