Permanent Death in Video Games

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Krantos

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So, I recently picked Torchlight up on the huge Steam sale and decided to try a Hardcore character. For those who don?t know, a Hardcore character in Torchlight cannot be revived from death. You die, you?re dead. However, you do earn better loot. Now, this is on normal difficulty, so it hasn?t been particularly difficult to stay alive, particularly playing an Alchemist.

Until I encountered one-hit-kill smashy death traps.

As my character scrambled through the traps, the knowledge that one misstep would permanently kill my character sent true, gut-wrenching fear through my veins. Once I was through the trap, I realized this was the most emotionally invested I?d been in my character?s survival in any game in a long time.

In TORCHLIGHT!?

Video games have kind of spoiled us when it comes to dealing with the consequences of our actions. After all, what?s the harm in holding that grenade for a second too long if you can just reload the last checkpoint when it blows up? What?s the harm is exploring this high level dungeon if you can just be revived at the nearest altar?

Now, before I go any further let me say two things:

First, I?m no expert on this. I just play a lot of games. I?d really like to see Extra Credits do an episode on this. I?m just sharing my musings and hope to get some discussion going.

Secondly, the ability to revive your character quickly is a key aspect to many of the
experiences in games. It encourages you to try approaches that might not be safe, but are totally awesome. Jumping over that barricade with a grenade in one hand and a shotgun in the other is not something you would ever do if you couldn?t retry quickly. Not punishing players over much for death enables them to just have a good time with the game. Live the fantasy, so to speak.

However, my experience in Torchlight helped show me that the industry is neglecting some very poignant experiences by always letting the character come back.

Permanent Death Changes Gameplay
This is one of the reasons Permanent Death (I?m just going to call it PD from now on), isn?t a good fit for all game types. The knowledge that one wrong move will permanently kill off the Player Character will encourage players to tread more softly, forsaking the ball-to-the-wall play style of many games. This can mean getting players to try options they normally wouldn?t. The guy that always charges in and keeps firing until everything?s dead might try sneaking past the guard patrol instead. The player that turns her nose up at alchemy might decide the ability to brew stronger health potions is suddenly worth her time.

PD Helps Immerse the Player
No matter how immersive the game might be otherwise, every time you die and respawn it pulls you out of the experience. Death animations of your character, loading screens, and repeating the same sections over and over shove the fact that you?re playing a game in your face. They essentially say, ?Oh, you died, but it?s a game so it?s ok.? This is not really the type of thing that helps the suspension of disbelief.
Giving the player the knowledge they only have one chance and that the maniac wielding a knife can permanently end their day will draw a player in just as much if not more than a well told story.

PD Helps the Player Connect with Their Character
One of the things a lot of games seem to struggle with is getting the player to empathize with their character. How many times have we been asked to feel something for generic grizzled man #952 even though he only speaks a few poorly delivered lines?
The one thing we all have in common, though, is death. Mortality is one of the scariest things we have to accept in our lives. No matter who we are, no matter what we do, some day we are going to die. By making the character play by those same rules, a game gives the player an immediate in for understanding and connecting with their character. It cements the sense that the player and PC are in this together, and that, hopefully, if they work together, they can get out alive.

Proposed Ground Rules
This is where I?d love to hear more input. As I said, not all games need to incorporate PD. There are a lot of games that would just not be as fun if you only had one shot. Additionally, though, I think there are a lot of ways to screw up PD in games. I?ve compiled here a few things I think games should do when including PD.

1. Make it optional
One of the biggest reasons I suspect PD is not in many games these days, is most people don?t want to have to start from the beginning when they die. They just want to get through the game. Therefore, making it an optional play style allows those who don?t want to do it to still enjoy the game. Which leads me to?

2. Give players a reason to try it
For some, the challenge associate with PD is enough to get them to try it. For most, however, they don?t see the point. It?s one of those things you don?t think would be as impactful as it is until you experience it. You have to give these players a reason. Torchlight handles this well with the better loot incentive. Other options are giving the characters in shooters an additional weapon slot, or more grenades, or a longer sprint time. Maybe if you?re playing an RPG like TES when you die you can have your next character that plays PD start with whatever weapon the previous character was using. Or (my personal choice) give the character a quest to find and retrieve the items on their predecessor?s body.
Give some incentive for players to try PD and many more will.

3. Make death avoidable
This does not mean you need to remove the challenge from the game. In fact you shouldn?t. If the player never feels like their life is threatened, PD has failed. However, the player should always have it within their power to avoid death.
This means, if there is a one hit kill, make it avoidable. Don?t randomly kill the player because they stepped on a trap they couldn?t see.
Operation Flashpoint: Dragon Rising made a pseudo attempt at PD with Hardcore difficultly. There were no checkpoints and the missions could take upwards of an hour at times, so dying was a big deal. However, the game botched it up by making it too easy for the player to die to things that weren?t their fault. A lucky headshot by an enemy 300 yards away, an unlucky mortar strike, or simple mistake by the ?friendly? AI.
The player needs to be in control of their fate, otherwise it just becomes a game of luck.

In Closing
I'd love to see more PD in games. I think it has a lot of potential to advance the medium and provide experiences that most games can?t. What does the escapist think? Are there other things I haven?t considered? More benefits that didn?t occur to me? Problems? Any more rules games should follow for incorporating it?
Let me hear your thoughts.

TL;DR: You are bad and should feel bad. Read the post.;p
 

Jordi

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Love the TL;DR.

I think PD is a very interesting gameplay mechanic. But it is also really hard. I have two main problems with it though. First of all, as you state in your first ground rule, the game needs to be designed with the mechanic in mind. That means that all deaths must (clearly) be the player's fault. I think this can be tricky to implement, and it also means that any challenge you put into the game must be instantly beatable. In some games, when there are really tough opponents, you only learn their weak spots and how to beat them after dying a couple of times. Of course you can say that PD is not suitable for "those kinds of games", but I do think that not being able to put a challenge like that in the game might make things less interesting. Especially when you elect to play the game without PD turned on. On the other hand this is probably not an insurmountable problem.

My second problem is with what happens when you actually do die. The fear of dying can make the game more interesting, but when you actually do die that ends. If you get really invested in a character (which is the whole point) and s/he dies, that fucking sucks. And I know that I would probably stop playing the game if I had already invested a lot of time (I'm not big on replaying most games). In a way, I want the thrills of Permanent Death without the death.

I think a hybrid solution would probably work the best for me. Basically PD is an extremely severe punishment, and I think that maybe having a punishment that is more harsh than normal, but less severe than having to start over from scratch could be an acceptable compromise. If you would lose a lot of your equipment or XP, that might give enough incentive to be scared, while not forcing the player to start over when he does fail.
Another idea that I really like is that your character might die, but that when you roll a new one, the world is still in the same state as the player left it. When you roll a new character, you should be able to get back into the story at approximately the same point, and maybe you can even find your previous character's corpse. In an Elder Scrolls game, I can imagine that the story would remain at the same stage as when player character A died. The the "saving the world"-faction has to go look for a replacement, which just happens to be player character B. After some initiation, he can just jump right back in with the story. Depending on how harsh you want to make it, you could make him start from a certain level, and you could think about his rank in the various guilds that character A was in.
 

Krantos

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Jordi said:
Another idea that I really like is that your character might die, but that when you roll a new one, the world is still in the same state as the player left it. When you roll a new character, you should be able to get back into the story at approximately the same point, and maybe you can even find your previous character's corpse. In an Elder Scrolls game, I can imagine that the story would remain at the same stage as when player character A died. The the "saving the world"-faction has to go look for a replacement, which just happens to be player character B. After some initiation, he can just jump right back in with the story. Depending on how harsh you want to make it, you could make him start from a certain level, and you could think about his rank in the various guilds that character A was in.
I love that idea. If Skyrim wasn't so close to being finished, I'd email bethesda begging them to put that option in.

You also bring up some great points that devs would have to solve before seriously using the mechanic. As you pointed out, the emotional attachment that PD engenders is also a big issue. What do you do when the character you just spent hour and hours building up is just gone? This, I think, is the type of thing that each game would have to handle differently. I like you're hybrid solution, but I'd also like games where the character can just die.

The challenge is also a sizable concern and I agree that the mechanic would have to be worked into the game from the beginning in order for it to work. I do like how Torchlight handles it. The game on Normal is WAAAAY too easy with infinite respawns, but it feels like a good fit on Hardcore, while Hard and Very Hard are better (imo) for normal play.

Another option is to make PD unlockable after an initial playthrough. That way, the player is familiar enough with the game that they can reasonably be expected to survive, but still be challenged.
 

AlternatePFG

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I can't play games like Torchlight without permadeath on, the game simply stops being fun or risky. It does add alot of tension, wouldn't say it made me care more about my character but as far as immersion goes it's great. I really think permadeath should only be an option for games with randomly generated maps though, otherwise things will get too repetitive (Torchlight has somewhat randomly generated maps, if I remember correctly).

There was a game that came out on Steam yesterday I believe called Dungeons of Dredmor, it's pretty much a roguelike, very much like Nethack. Really great game, and it has permadeath as an option as well (Don't see why you'd want to play with it off). I'm on my 10th character or so, I always keep on screwing up but it manages to stay fun and fresh due to random dungeons.
 
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Krantos said:
Another option is to make PD unlockable after an initial playthrough. That way, the player is familiar enough with the game that they can reasonably be expected to survive, but still be challenged.
I speed read the posts above, and I do absolutely agree with the OP on what it adds to the game. With some caveats. Before I continue, regarding this quote...I read somewhere (a thin rumour, wrapped in hearsay, fresh off the grapevine after being whispered about by the chinese) that the World of Darkness MMO (from CCP), when it materialises will have some sort of perma-death system. IIRC it was along the lines of a player account accrues XP/money etc. and the player character, on perma-death is no more. The player can then roll a new character up to approximately the level of the last.

On main topicI agree that PD (I like it) adds something to games. However games now are designed to be beaten, not to stump the player or punish the unable. I remember one of the things I hated most about the Prince of Persia reboot was that the Prince (aside from his horrid accent and quips) was essentially invincible. I left the controller on the table and the game unpaused for over 15 minutes and he would just go through the Eleka animation over and over.

I also however played Nightmare on DS2. It's the closest to PD I've come in a looong time. You get three saves in the game and no more. No checkpoints. Isaac dies, back to last save. It took away the safety net of constant checkpoints and aave points to fall back to....death meant hours of gameplay, tempting fate again with repeat fights against brutes, tripods and so on. I actually had to go back to my 2nd save and play thru again past the 3rd to resave it. It was tense, harrowing and an entirely different game experience. Instead of worrying about weapon upgrades, all I thought about was ammo and health kits. Each room potentially had death awaiting...it turns out it didn't, but it didn't help my nerves!

So yeah, PD can make a big difference and I think DS2 had it pretty much nailed. I'm not sure I could handle doing it again, but I liked that the option was there if I wanted it and that there was a fantastic reward for a New Game+ waiting if I met the challenge. It added replayability to the game, a new game experience, an exhausting, emotional 12 hour journey where I was genuninely fearful of anything that might disrupt me, Isaac or my console. I think it would be great to see an option included in other games, but not at the expense of what we currently enjoy.
 

Savagezion

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I agree. After I beat Diablo 2, I have only made Hardcore characters since and I totally agree. I recently started a multiplayer account again on Diablo with a friend and he didn't want to play hardcore, which is fine but I found myself very detached from the whole experience. I found it funny when we spoke about character builds because honestly, it didn't really matter which was "better". If either of us died, by the time you make your way back to your body, the other one had already killed anything near your corpse. The thrill of a boss had practically disappeared.

I think you covered it pretty well. PD is complimented by incentive and things that instantly kill you should be avoided or avoidable in the game.
 

Jimmy T. Malice

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Minecraft doesn't have PD, but it does handle death well. When you die, you respawn at your initial spawn point (or your bed), but you lose all your items. If you get back to your death point within 5 minutes or so you can recover them. This approach is effective because it makes death a true punishment rather than a temporary setback. This and the lack of regenerating health (so common in games these days) makes the game a true challenge of survival.
 

bjj hero

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I like PD but you have to be aware that it would cut risk taking in a lot of players. That can change game play.
 

SL33TBL1ND

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Play Dungeons of Dredmor right now then. It's one of the best games with perma-death out. And it's only $5 on steam.

Buy it.
 

JWRosser

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Jimmy T. Malice said:
Minecraft doesn't have PD, but it does handle death well. When you die, you respawn at your initial spawn point (or your bed), but you lose all your items. If you get back to your death point within 5 minutes or so you can recover them. This approach is effective because it makes death a true punishment rather than a temporary setback. This and the lack of regenerating health (so common in games these days) makes the game a true challenge of survival.
Unless you fall in to lava. Lava is a *****.
 

Continuity

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I love PD in the right place, i'm playing Dungeons of dreadmor at them moment with permadeath, and yeah i'm dying a lot but i've getting a bit further each time and I actually get invested in my character and trying to keep them alive... it means something when I make progress.

However permadeath isn't always appropriate, in many games, especially story driven games it would be completely inappropriate. However I do think that we've gone too far down the path of games being easy, there needs to be a tangible penalty for death in order to make staying alive a meaningful gameplay mechanic.

Shamus did an article on this here [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/experienced-points/8450-Experienced-Points-The-Death-of-the-Death-Penalty] but I disagreed with him pretty hard on that.. as most things it seems.
 

hazabaza1

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Most Roguelikes have Permanent death in them, it makes you play more carefully.
Another good example is Way of the Samurai. Permanent death, but you can tell it's your fault for messing up in combat if it happens. Plus, with all the branching storylines, getting an individual ending takes about... 2 hours or so, sometimes more, so it's not too grating if you lose.
 

Richardplex

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I don't like PD, because I'm terrible at games, but you've thought out your argument very well, and I commend you for it. Making areas maybe with terrible save points might be the alternative. Fear of having to go back an hour could work. And the play gets better when it those situations. My friends have noticed that I get a lot better when I'm last alive on Search & Destroy with many enemies left, or say, when I'm last alive on Mass Effect and the auto-save being rubbish would send me back to where the Mako first landed.

Extra Credits sort of touched upon this issue with limited deaths in the Korean games, which is another idea that could work. But yes, they should do an episode on death, to add to the pile of episodes they need to do.
 
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Permadeath is not for everyone as sometimes it can lead to really cunty deaths in certain situations like if you weren't expecting a boss to be imba for its location. While I will admit games have taken the whole punishment thing and threw it out the window we do need a better system but despite that some games like CoD need checkpoints so often. If you are going to die by 1 shot and enemies are infinitely respawning and can come from everywhere it suits this game.

Stuff like Half Life suits the choose to save where you want system as the enemies are much more spread out so if it did implement a harsh checkpoint system there would be a lot more extra walking than necessary.

Personally the only games this might suit and which I think harshish penalties suit are adventure/platform games(even then only some) and RPGs. Unless it is a realistic FPS but then the AI wouldn't be shit/infinitely respawn.
 

Continuity

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I personally think a strong penalty for death make a game better, just look at counterstrike, that has permadeath, ok granted that only lasts a few minutes before you start a new round, but its exactly that mechanic that has given the game such lasting playability.

I think we need to see more harsh death penalties in games, maybe not always PD, but there has to be a real and substantial penalty if players are going to take the gameplay seriously... and in some games that really works to enhance the gameplay.

This IMO is one of the main reasons that COD doesn't appeal to me, it has pretensions of a tactical FPS but without PD for the round no one plays seriously... they make stupid outrageous plays because they know there is practically no penalty and they will respawn in a few seconds... that robs the game of any tactical depth. Personally if its run n' gun gameplay i'm looking for I would take UT over COD any day.
 

Jimmy T. Malice

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JWRosser said:
Jimmy T. Malice said:
Minecraft doesn't have PD, but it does handle death well. When you die, you respawn at your initial spawn point (or your bed), but you lose all your items. If you get back to your death point within 5 minutes or so you can recover them. This approach is effective because it makes death a true punishment rather than a temporary setback. This and the lack of regenerating health (so common in games these days) makes the game a true challenge of survival.
Unless you fall in to lava. Lava is a *****.
I haven't lost anything significant to lava (bar a few tools), but my brother lost a full set of diamond tools and armour in an unexpected cave-in. He cried.
 

lighto

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SL33TBL1ND said:
Play Dungeons of Dredmor right now then. It's one of the best games with perma-death out. And it's only $5 on steam.

Buy it.
I second this, But also give nethack or slash'em a try.
 

headphonegirl

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Oct 19, 2009
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Its an interesting idea and well thought out, Permadeath would be a good alternate difficulty mode, I think if it was made as a part of all difficulty modes it would only annoy the casual players or the rage quitters, then all permadeath has done is made fewer people play your game.

Continuity said:
I personally think a strong penalty for death make a game better, just look at counterstrike, that has permadeath, ok granted that only lasts a few minutes before you start a new round, but its exactly that mechanic that has given the game such lasting playability.
Jimmy T. Malice said:
Minecraft doesn't have PD, but it does handle death well. When you die, you respawn at your initial spawn point (or your bed), but you lose all your items. If you get back to your death point within 5 minutes or so you can recover them. This approach is effective because it makes death a true punishment rather than a temporary setback. This and the lack of regenerating health (so common in games these days) makes the game a true challenge of survival.
Methods like these are good examples :D
They still provide a challenge without making the player want to throw the controller/keyboard at the screen.