Personal Opinion on Religion (Atheist View)

[the1ringer]

Everyone wants to feel that their universe is in some sort of control. I say, when you get right down to it, we're all the same no matter what our beliefs.

Ah, but some that I have met do not wish this. There are some who wish for there to be no controlling power so they can do whatever they want whenever they want with no guilt or eternal consequences attached. Christianity is the most uncomfortable and yet comforting religion I know of. In Scripture, there is a God who knows more about us than we do. He watches everyone's every move. For a sinner (and I think we all, if we are honest, are sinners), a perfectly Holy and Just God who watches your every move is a very disturbing and uncomfortable thing! He even knows sins you've committed when you didn't know it, and he always knew it. And yet He has promised that He will withhold from you no good thing. It is important to remember it's not what you think is good for you, it's what He thinks is good for you. But I would say this is comforting, because He is all-knowing and infinitely wise.

To those that say God's omnipotence or any other virtue is too hard to comprehend: That's how I would expect it to be! In order for us to comprehend an infinite God we ourselves would need to be, I think, infinite! We know from our personal experiences that it is impossibly hard to understand things you have never done seen or been apart of.

I agree with Baby_Tea that nonsense is still nonsense, that is why we can have any logical argument whatsoever. If God created us with no sense of order or logic life as we know it would be impossible.

To quote C.S. Lewis, "Perhaps we feel inclined to disagree with [God]. But there is a difficulty about disagreeing with God. He is the source from which all your reasoning power comes: you could not be right and He wrong any more than a stream can rise higher than its own source. When you are arguing against the very power that makes you able to argue at all: it is like cutting off the branch you are sitting on."

From what I see from this thread most issues seem to have to do with an extremely elevated view of man and an extremely limited view of God. This is perfectly understandable. We, in our sin, desire to elevate ourselves above God, everyone does it. We always think of our glory as more important than God's. We can only get a glimpse of each of His attributes in this life, so we seek to put a limit on Him because we are creatures ashamed of our open rebellion before a Righteous Wrathful, and Just God.

 

[Vanguard_Ex]

Everyone wants to feel that their universe is in some sort of control. I say, when you get right down to it, we're all the same no matter what our beliefs.

Ah, but some that I have met do not wish this. There are some who wish for there to be no controlling power so they can do whatever they want whenever they want with no guilt or eternal consequences attached. Christianity is the most uncomfortable and yet comforting religion I know of. We know there is a God who knows more about us than we do. He watches everyone's every move. For a sinner (and I think we all, if we are honest, are sinners), a perfectly Holy and Just God who watches your every move is a very disturbing and uncomfortable thing! He even knows sins you've committed when you didn't know it, and he always knew it.

To those that say God's omnipotence or any other virtue is too hard to comprehend: That's how I would expect it to be! In order for us to comprehend an infinite God we ourselves would need to be, I think, infinite! We know from our personal experiences that it is impossibly hard to understand things you have never done seen or been apart of.

I agree with Baby_Tea that nonsense is still nonsense, that is why we can have any logical argument whatsoever. If God created us with no sense of order or logic life as we know it would be impossible.

To quote C.S. Lewis, "Perhaps we feel inclined to disagree with [God]. But there is a difficulty about disagreeing with God. He is the source from which all your reasoning power comes: you could not be right and He wrong any more than a stream can rise higher than its own source. When you are arguing against the very power that makes you able to argue at all: it is like cutting off the branch you are sitting on."

From what I see from this thread most issues seem to have to do with an extremely elevated view of man and an extremely limited view of God. This is perfectly understandable. We, in our sin, desire to elevate ourselves above God, everyone does it. We always think of our glory as more important than God's. We can only get a glimpse of each of His attributes in this life, so we seek to put a limit on Him because we are creatures ashamed of our open rebellion before a Righteous Wrathful, and Just God.

Ah for fuck sake, I began reading your post expecting you to be an objective person but now it's obvious you're exactly the same kind of person I was originally going to say in my post that I turn my hostility towards. Unfortunate.

'We know there is a God who knows more about us than we do.'

^ That ^ pretty much sums up my problem. No, we don't know anything. You think you know there is a God. Please keep that to yourself or anyone who believes in the same God. Don't tell me I'm a sinner and that your God is mine please. I haven't started going on about evolution to anybody, so don't start that shite. I don't want a controlling power because my life is mine. How can you not see how incredibly arrogant it is to say that just because I don't believe in your God I live a consequentless and guilt-free life? I'll spare you any further retaliation, which may suprise you because, of course, godless heathens have no morals, do they?

 

[the1ringer]

Everyone wants to feel that their universe is in some sort of control. I say, when you get right down to it, we're all the same no matter what our beliefs.

Ah, but some that I have met do not wish this. There are some who wish for there to be no controlling power so they can do whatever they want whenever they want with no guilt or eternal consequences attached. Christianity is the most uncomfortable and yet comforting religion I know of. We know there is a God who knows more about us than we do. He watches everyone's every move. For a sinner (and I think we all, if we are honest, are sinners), a perfectly Holy and Just God who watches your every move is a very disturbing and uncomfortable thing! He even knows sins you've committed when you didn't know it, and he always knew it.

To those that say God's omnipotence or any other virtue is too hard to comprehend: That's how I would expect it to be! In order for us to comprehend an infinite God we ourselves would need to be, I think, infinite! We know from our personal experiences that it is impossibly hard to understand things you have never done seen or been apart of.

I agree with Baby_Tea that nonsense is still nonsense, that is why we can have any logical argument whatsoever. If God created us with no sense of order or logic life as we know it would be impossible.

To quote C.S. Lewis, "Perhaps we feel inclined to disagree with [God]. But there is a difficulty about disagreeing with God. He is the source from which all your reasoning power comes: you could not be right and He wrong any more than a stream can rise higher than its own source. When you are arguing against the very power that makes you able to argue at all: it is like cutting off the branch you are sitting on."

From what I see from this thread most issues seem to have to do with an extremely elevated view of man and an extremely limited view of God. This is perfectly understandable. We, in our sin, desire to elevate ourselves above God, everyone does it. We always think of our glory as more important than God's. We can only get a glimpse of each of His attributes in this life, so we seek to put a limit on Him because we are creatures ashamed of our open rebellion before a Righteous Wrathful, and Just God.

Ah for fuck sake, I began reading your post expecting you to be an objective person but now it's obvious you're exactly the same kind of person I was originally going to say in my post that I turn my hostility towards. Unfortunate.

'We know there is a God who knows more about us than we do.'

^ That ^ pretty much sums up my problem. No, we don't know anything. You think you know there is a God. Please keep that to yourself or anyone who believes in the same God. Don't tell me I'm a sinner and that your God is mine please. I haven't started going on about evolution to anybody, so don't start that shite. I don't want a controlling power because my life is mine. How can you not see how incredibly arrogant it is to say that just because I don't believe in your God I live a consequentless and guilt-free life? I'll spare you any further retaliation, which may suprise you because, of course, godless heathens have no morals, do they?

I never said you were any of those things. I said I know some who are. I did not mean to say what you think I said. I am sorry, I will correct my post. Thank you for pointing this out, that's why I came here.

I do not believe that you have no morals. In Scripture we read that all who have not heard the Gospel or the Law will be judged according to the Law which God has placed on their hearts: their conscience.

May I ask how you know that your life is your own?

 

[Spacelord]

Meanwhile OP is racking up quite a post count in his thread.

Normally I'd agree, but to hear (read?) you and Fragamoo both say that they've become a bit more understanding about people with a faith, I'd say it's worth it! Besides! There seems to be some good, healthy conversation going on with legitimate questions being asked and answered respectfully! Why mess with a good thing?

And double besides: What does the OP get? A badge? Who cares, right?

But really, these past few posts I'm made in this thread have probably been the first in a long time that I've made where I wasn't defending my faith, or right to faith, from total ignorance. It's actually really nice! Who knew you could have a normal conversation on the internet?

Good point, actually. I'm not just glad, I'm astounded to find that the whole discussions is actually going somewhere. It's good to hear that you don't feel like you're on the stand every single religion thread, and that you've noticed an improvement.

Hell, I'm still reeling at the thought: mutual understanding and tolerance on the internets...

 

[Baby Tea]

^ That ^ pretty much sums up my problem. No, we don't know anything. You think you know there is a God. Please keep that to yourself or anyone who believes in the same God. Don't tell me I'm a sinner and that your God is mine please. I haven't started going on about evolution to anybody, so don't start that shite. I don't want a controlling power because my life is mine. How can you not see how incredibly arrogant it is to say that just because I don't believe in your God I live a consequentless and guilt-free life? I'll spare you any further retaliation, which may suprise you because, of course, godless heathens have no morals, do they?

Shit, I was afraid this would happen.
You know, as a Christian, I used to be all into that street preaching, handing out tracts stuff. Seriously, it's true. And then I came to a realization that made me go 'Why didn't I see that before?': People don't like being preached at.
Let me say it once more, with proper emphasis: People don't like being preached at.
Makes sense, right? Johnny Jim (Or Vanguard_Ex) walking down the road doesn't want people jumping in front of him telling him how he's hell-bound. I wouldn't like it, that's for sure.

As much as modern evangelicals don't like to admit it: If God gave us the freedom to believe, then that automatically means we have the freedom to not believe. Now I'm a through and through Christian. I fully believe in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ for the salvation of our sins. Yup, the whole shebang.
But there is something I noticed about the ministry of Christ: When he preached to people...they wanted to listen. They followed Him in droves! He couldn't get a moment to himself, practically. The one time Jesus got 'in your face', was when they were defiling the temple, God's house.

What I'm saying is that Jesus acted first, and talked second. He showed love, showed grace, showed mercy and forgiveness in a time where those things weren't easily seen from a religious leader. And once people realized this guy was something different, then they wanted to hear what he had to say. He didn't chase people down, or yell in the market place. They came to Him.

What I'm getting at is this:
Vanguard, I know from personal experience that it's easy to get your back up about something like this. While we don't have to agree on the nature or existence of God (I don't think we do. Seems like you're an atheist...?), the last couple posts of this thread have been pretty good about mutual respect through differing worldviews. I know if can be hard, but let's try to remain that way.

The1ringer, don't think I'm asking you to water down or hide your faith. What I will ask, however, is to be understanding of the differing, and even opposing, positions here. You yourself said you were evangelistic. 'Classic' evangelism, I would put to you, may not work as well here as you might think. I tried being similar when I first arrived (For those who remember the 'Why all the hate on Christianity?' thread from back in the day), and I quickly realized my mistakes. Even the Apostle Paul spoke to the experience of those he ministered to, using verses and quotes from local priests and poems. I think you should use similar tact, if this topic is going to continue it's course.

Basically: Let's all get along.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

Ah, but some that I have met do not wish this. There are some who wish for there to be no controlling power so they can do whatever they want whenever they want with no guilt or eternal consequences attached. Christianity is the most uncomfortable and yet comforting religion I know of. In Scripture, there is a God who knows more about us than we do. He watches everyone's every move. For a sinner (and I think we all, if we are honest, are sinners), a perfectly Holy and Just God who watches your every move is a very disturbing and uncomfortable thing! He even knows sins you've committed when you didn't know it, and he always knew it. And yet He has promised that He will withhold from you no good thing. It is important to remember it's not what you think is good for you, it's what He thinks is good for you. But I would say this is comforting, because He is all-knowing and infinitely wise.

You might be a sinner. I am not. I might look at dirty pictures and have extremely impure thoughts about women, I might use the word "fuck" an average of 7 times a second, I might not believe in any omnipotent God at all and think that all life is in some way 'spiritually divine', hell... I even think that humans are not more important than animals!

If you think those are sins, good for you. To me, they are just the way I am. Nobody is watching me from on high, I have my own conscience to keeping me from turning into an evil twat. If ones only motivation for being a 'good' person is that they are being watched by a God then that person isn't 'good' at all.

 

[the1ringer]

The1ringer, don't think I'm asking you to water down or hide your faith. What I will ask, however, is to be understanding of the differing, and even opposing, positions here. You yourself said you were evangelistic. 'Classic' evangelism, I would put to you, may not work as well here as you might think. I tried being similar when I first arrived (For those who remember the 'Why all the hate on Christianity?' thread from back in the day), and I quickly realized my mistakes. Even the Apostle Paul spoke to the experience of those he ministered to, using verses and quotes from local priests and poems. I think you should use similar tact, if this topic is going to continue it's course.

Basically: Let's all get along.

I never intended to appear arrogant or disrespectful. If I have offended anyone in anything I have said, I wish to be corrected. I fully believe in the power of kindness and love as adding credibility to any system of beliefs. The best way I can see it is we are all starving beggars. If some believe they have good food then they will share their knowledge of the food and where they found it, also how to get there as best as they can, with those who have not stumbled across it. But just because those who have found it have been so fortunate as to find it does not either mean they should remain silent or that they should brag and boast in that they found it, when they did nothing to warrant it. Scripture teaches we should boast in the Lord, not anything we have done. So I really do not think arrogance or elitism is justifiable. I did not intend an arrogant or intolerant attitude, and if I did, I should welcome feedback on how to remove this from future comments.

My chief purpose here is to attempt an answer to any doubts or questions anyone may wish to ask that I can answer, and to improve my own defense of my own faith.

 

[the1ringer]

You might be a sinner. I am not. I might look at dirty pictures and have extremely impure thoughts about women, I might use the word "fuck" an average of 7 times a second, I might not believe in any omnipotent God at all and think that all life is in some way 'spiritually divine', hell... I even think that humans are not more important than animals!

If you think those are sins, good for you. To me, they are just the way I am. Nobody is watching me from on high, I have my own conscience to keeping me from turning into an evil twat. If ones only motivation for being a 'good' person is that they are being watched by a God then that person isn't 'good' at all.

Ok this is tough for me. I try to be un-arrogant. Tolerant. Whatever you want to call it. But I am now faced with the issue of someone calling me, my God, and my Savior a liar. How shall I then reply?

I never actually said that was the only reason for someone to be good. The best reason to be good that I can think of is our Blessed Hope, the second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal reward and crown of Righteousness promised all who will repent and follow Christ.

 

[Baby Tea]

Ok this is tough for me. I try to be un-arrogant. Tolerant. Whatever you want to call it. But I am now faced with the issue of someone calling me, my God, and my Savior a liar. How shall I then reply?

He wasn't calling you a liar, but rather that he views 'sin' differently than you.
Specifically, he doesn't really believe in sin.

cuddly_tomato is an atheist, and therefore doesn't believe the same things as you, or I, or any number of people from different faiths. What we see as truth, he doesn't. He was pointing out that your over-arching, sweeping statements of sin aren't something that everyone agrees on.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

You might be a sinner. I am not. I might look at dirty pictures and have extremely impure thoughts about women, I might use the word "fuck" an average of 7 times a second, I might not believe in any omnipotent God at all and think that all life is in some way 'spiritually divine', hell... I even think that humans are not more important than animals!

If you think those are sins, good for you. To me, they are just the way I am. Nobody is watching me from on high, I have my own conscience to keeping me from turning into an evil twat. If ones only motivation for being a 'good' person is that they are being watched by a God then that person isn't 'good' at all.

Ok this is tough for me. I try to be un-arrogant. Tolerant. Whatever you want to call it. But I am now faced with the issue of someone calling me, my God, and my Savior a liar. How shall I then reply?

You can reply however you wish. I am not a sinner, not at all. My eyes see all life as equal. Although I don't believe in God I do believe in a soul, and I believe that animals, and plants, have them.

I also find looking at pictures of She-Hulk is extremely good and clean fun.

Spoiler

What of it exactly? There isn't really anything wrong with all that is there? I am not cutting into your life with it.

The best reason to be good that I can think of is our Blessed Hope, the second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal reward and crown of Righteousness promised all who will repent and follow Christ.

This is the worst reason to be good, and you gave the reason yourself - "Reward". The best reason to be good is that you don't make problems for other people, that you help others through their life when they needed it (not prepare them for afterlife), and that you do not contribute to making the world a worse place than it was when you entered it.

 

[the1ringer]

Ok this is tough for me. I try to be un-arrogant. Tolerant. Whatever you want to call it. But I am now faced with the issue of someone calling me, my God, and my Savior a liar. How shall I then reply?

He wasn't calling you a liar, but rather that he views 'sin' differently than you.
Specifically, he doesn't really believe in sin.

cuddly_tomato is an atheist, and therefore doesn't believe the same things as you, or I, or any number of people from different faiths. What we see as truth, he doesn't. He was pointing out that your over-arching, sweeping statements of sin aren't something that everyone agrees on.

Well hmmm, let's compare some quotes.

You might be a sinner. I am not.

Definite statement.

For a sinner (and I think we all, if we are honest, are sinners)

Statement of a personally held thought. Not definite, and you can decide for yourself which is more respectful.

Nobody is watching me from on high, I have my own conscience to keeping me from turning into an evil twat.

Definite statement.

Do you see a difference? He is quite bluntly stating I and Scripture are wrong. I have no problem whatsoever with being told that I am wrong, except when I am criticized for merely suggesting someone else to be wrong.

I am praying for both of you, Cuddly_tomato and Vanguard.

On a side note, Cuddly, may I ask where you believe your conscience comes from? If nobody or nothing cares what you do why is it that you have something inside of you that cares?

 

[Ricky 49]

so long as you don't hurt anyone or base laws on it or block science then people have a right to believe in anything they want...in moderation

well that?s my opinion

 

[cuddly_tomato]

Do you see a difference? He is quite bluntly stating I and Scripture are wrong. I have no problem whatsoever with being told that I am wrong, except when I am criticized for merely suggesting someone else to be wrong.

I do think scripture is wrong. I wouldn't dare say that it is wrong in an abstract way, but taking it, at all, literally (as you appear to be doing), does make it absolutely wrong yes. Sin is a point of view, as is all things. You said you were a sinner. By my standards I am not. I used to be, but I decided there was no point in being a twat. I live as "cleanly" as I can (according to my standards), and that is good enough for me. So I ain't a sinner.

You, however, said that you were a sinner.

I am praying for both of you, Cuddly_tomato and Vanguard.

Don't do that, it is incredibly condescending and goes against my particular theological beliefs.

On a side note, Cuddly, may I ask where you believe your conscience comes from? If nobody or nothing cares what you do why is it that you have something inside of you that cares?

Conscience? I don't care where it is from, but if you asked I would say it is an evolutionary tool that has come about to stop us from eating each other out of hand. Without conscience to keep other members of the same species in check, complex societies would have never come about. You can see small but steady increments in human social evolution in the fossil record. That's where it's from.

Conscience is something you have yourself. It is something I have myself. I don't attribute that too anyone, or anything, else. If I did I would be avoiding responsibility when my conscience makes a mistake and I do something stupid/wrong.

 

[the1ringer]

You might be a sinner. I am not. I might look at dirty pictures and have extremely impure thoughts about women, I might use the word "fuck" an average of 7 times a second, I might not believe in any omnipotent God at all and think that all life is in some way 'spiritually divine', hell... I even think that humans are not more important than animals!

If you think those are sins, good for you. To me, they are just the way I am. Nobody is watching me from on high, I have my own conscience to keeping me from turning into an evil twat. If ones only motivation for being a 'good' person is that they are being watched by a God then that person isn't 'good' at all.

Ok this is tough for me. I try to be un-arrogant. Tolerant. Whatever you want to call it. But I am now faced with the issue of someone calling me, my God, and my Savior a liar. How shall I then reply?

You can reply however you wish. I am not a sinner, not at all. My eyes see all life as equal. Although I don't believe in God I do believe in a soul, and I believe that animals, and plants, have them.

I also find looking at pictures of She-Hulk is extremely good and clean fun.

Spoiler

What of it exactly? There isn't really anything wrong with all that is there? I am not cutting into your life with it.

The best reason to be good that I can think of is our Blessed Hope, the second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal reward and crown of Righteousness promised all who will repent and follow Christ.

This is the worst reason to be good, and you gave the reason yourself - "Reward". The best reason to be good is that you don't make problems for other people, that you help others through their life when they needed it (not prepare them for afterlife), and that you do not contribute to making the world a worse place than it was when you entered it.

I'm afraid that if you believe as I do you do not see this life as being the most important thing. Our Reward is not a bad thing at all. Cuddly, you only mention one part of Biblical ethics. I realize you are an Atheist but I will state the Biblical position anyway, using an analogy of C.S. Lewis'.

Imagine all of life as a naval fleet. We are each the captains of our own ships. The only way in which we may safely reach our destination is by 1) not drifting apart or colliding into each other, which is only possible if you 2) keep your ship in good order and perform constant maintenance to keep her seaworthy. 3) You may be the captain but the ship is not yours. I believe There is still a commander and owner of all the ships over you, and you have a responsibility to follow His orders to the letter.

Helping others is important of course, I feel that the church doesn't do near enough of it today. All of these things are important but they all boil down to this: What's the point in giving something that will rust and decay when you can be used, by the grace of God, to lead people to Eternal Joy? If you believe someone is doing nothing of any eternal importance with their lives and is heading for Eternal damnation that you avoided by sheer grace from God why on earth would you keep quiet about it? I give to charity, probably charities you would be opposed to, but I do so because all of the things I have been given, even life itself were neither merited nor deserved by me. I have done nothing to deserve anything. With this outlook I can give much more freely, because I am simply giving back to the rightful owner and who gave me everything I have anyway. If anything i think the Christian world view allows you to give more than most people do.

I'm afraid Cuddly I have no choice but to pray for you, and I want you to know I do. If I were to not pray for you, I would be inconsistent with my beliefs. I would be a hypocrite. I believe that you are making the same mistakes that I, and people I know, have made and God graciously saved me from. Would you rather I didn't care about people? I know no better way to attend to the needs of people than to pray. Asking me not to pray is like asking you to pray.

So you believe that nature gave us a conscience so we could evolve complex societies? Why do we need complex societies? You said yourself we are equal with animals and plants, but they don't need nations, boundaries, government or as far as we know, consciences to survive. It is not shirking responsibility to say that someone gave you a way to know if you are doing something right or wrong. Rather, if you have no basis for your conscience, you can do anything. You then have the freedom to change or disobey any law you choose because there is no reason one set of laws is better than another. To admit there is a correct way to behave is to admit you have a higher standard than yourself which you check yourself against.

I think you just changed your position on Scripture... before you implied it was definitely wrong. Now you say you think so? Do you have a particular reason you doubt Scripture?

Let us define sinner. If you have ever sinned, even once, that makes you a sinner. The word sin, in O.T. Hebrew is "het" and in N.T. Greek "hamartia." People commonly say these mean to do evil, but this is in fact incorrect. Literally translated, they mean to miss the mark of a specific target. To fail to meet a standard. To err. In Scripture the "mark" would be the Holiness of God. So if you are not as good as God, then you have sinned and are a sinner. You consistently say you are not a sinner. In reference to what standard or mark? Your own?

If I may respectfully pose another question: Why is it we can debate philosophy? Why is it we, as humans, have multiple religions, why is it we invent, why is it we craft art? Why can we be intelligent? Are these all absolutely necessary to survival? Is a soul, as you said you believe in, also necessary?

Whew that was a lot of typing, and I took a lot out heh.

EDIT: Cuddly, you seem to have an idea that religion should only be about what makes you feel good. Christianity is not. That is why people die terrible deaths for believing it, it is not about making yourself happy or getting what you want, certainly not in this life. It's not important if your she-hulk pictures are bothering me or cutting in on me. I am not the most important thing here.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

With this outlook I can give much more freely, because I am simply giving back to the rightful owner and who gave me everything I have anyway. If anything i think the Christian world view allows you to give more than most people do.

Not at all. There are many good Christians out there, but equally many good Buddhists, Muslims, atheists, and Eskimos. What allows some people to give more than others is their own level of altruism balanced with their level of greedy douchebaggery. I wouldn't even try making a case that such things are dependent on religion.

So you believe that nature gave us a conscience so we could evolve complex societies? Why do we need complex societies? You said yourself we are equal with animals and plants, but they don't need nations, boundaries, government or as far as we know, consciences to survive.

I mean equal in "life", not equal in "ability". There is a clear advantage in being social, ask any wolf. And having a conscience makes having larger and "less personal" social groups more possible.

The larger the group, the greater the ability to survive. In the distant past humans had some nasty enemies stalking them, worst of all was other humans.

I think you just changed your position on Scripture... before you implied it was definitely wrong. Now you say you think so? Do you have a particular reason you doubt Scripture?

Yep. The Bible is self contradictory and is extremely convoluted. I am not someone who thinks it is "evil" or anything... rather I think it is a mirror for the soul. An evil person will find evil there. A good person would see the good things. Because frankly it contains both. The Bible is not something that appeals to me personally though, and while I don't reject it, I find it just "doesn't work".

If I may respectfully pose another question: Why is it we can debate philosophy? Why is it we, as humans, have multiple religions, why is it we invent, why is it we craft art? Why can we be intelligent? Are these all absolutely necessary to survival? Is a soul, as you said you believe in, also necessary?

I believe a soul is necessary to define the difference between a living entity and a simple lump of non-living matter. What is the real difference between a tree and a rock? A tree lives.

As for the rest...? I believe that if any one being wanted us all to believe one particular thing, he or she would have made damn sure what that thing was. As the various religions and faiths of human history is not consistent with that, diversity is obviously being favoured by whatever driving forces are at hand, whether it's human creativity, an evolutionary advantage in religiousity, or supernatural entities bombing around making our lives difficult.

What the truth is, that is anyones guess.

 

[currysoup]

I personally see this as one of mankind's biggest problems. Over the millenia different human cultures developed in different parts of the world. Most of them developed some sort of a belief in some form of being or beings. Over time as we have learned to travel we all encountered each other and now we have what I see as a problem.

The vast majority of religions are peaceful. Most go by a fairly simple tenet, have some consideration for other people. Unfortunately some people believe that their religion is "the one true way". The natural downside to this is that if you happen to believe in a hell, you don't want to see others going there because they don't believe the right thing. Thus is born the religious zealot and its logical extreme, the extremist.

My personal take on this is that you don't need to be religious, or even believe in a god(/s). As long as you have some consideration for others then you won't go far wrong. I personally do not believe in god and see no requirement for one. As we have evolved and learned about our surroundings we have learned that everything we see is governed by physical laws and mechanical processes. We learned that the earth is not flat, that it is not the centre of the universe. We learned about gravity and how the earth moves around the sun. We have even sent probes beyond the furthest planet in our solar system. Weather systems and "acts of god" lightning, hurricanes, and floods can all be predicted days in advance.

Despite all of this I still hold that you have the right to believe in what you like. As long as you accept my right to believe in what I like.

 

[lacktheknack]

I agree with every post so far. Especially OP.


EDIT: Except for this one.

Oh and its 4 in the morning and I'm being kept awake by a now half-empty 2 litre of coke.

In other words, 1 litre of coke

I'm atheist too but some people enjoy religion and I just let 'em get on with it.

As for the question of why God would allow suffering... well, I'll leave that one up to a religious fellow.

Agreeing with OP entirely, I have to say, I disagree. As someone who believes that the only way our species can advance is through, I believe that allowing people to go "fuck it, I can do whatever I want because it's god's plan for me; I'm gonna sit at home, jerk off and live off my girlfriend for the rest of my life because if god wanted me to do differently, he'd say so" for the rest of eternity can only be detrimental to humanity as a whole.

So how about the people who claim that God said "stop living off your girlfriend and do something useful", and went off and did something useful?

 

[robinkom]

MYSELF:
I see where you're coming from and fully respect your point of view. That being said, I suppose I am more Agnostic at this point in life. I'm 24 years old and grew up in a Maronite Catholic family that was relaxed about it. My mother has a firm belief in God but isn't a nut about it; if you can show her a scientific explanation of something that is otherwise biblical, she's not going to argue it. My father is also Agnostic.

Obviously for me, common sense and logic come first when facing day-to-day problems. If no logical explanation can be reached, then perhaps the possibility exists of "Otherworldly," "paranormal," or "Celestial" interaction. Not going to beat myself up trying to solve it though.

Sometimes I "feel" my way through life; Intuitively if you will. You could say I believe in Karma, which I've been told is more of a Buddhist thing. In my experiences though, I have found that being genuinely good to my fellow Man does generally keep me in higher spirits and more approachable for others. I just enjoy taking care of the people I care about. It makes me feel good knowing that I'm helping them in some way.


ME ON RELIGION:
I don't particularly care for Extremes, especially if they're hateful about it like some Hardcore Atheists and Fundamentalist Christians are. My views are meant to be completely objective with malice towards no one.

You can't prove to me that there is a God as described by other humans down through the ages. You can't tell me that the Bible is the absolute truth; It was written by man of the day. The point to this is that Man is fallible. To me, the Men who wrote the stories of the Bible are no different than pop culture columnists of today. They wrote about things that they attempted to understand by what they knew of life in those times, hence, God is shown in the form of a Man because it is what we understand. If God were a six-eyed purple squid-like creature with a red fedora and bunny slippers, you'd have a much harder time accepting that.

I like to think that Religion and Science each have some sort of answer that can fill in gaps for the other, but the people of either extreme do not mesh well. For example, Creation Vs. Evolution.

As far as how man came to be, Religion says that God created Adam, and with one of his ribs, created Eve. You know the rest. Science says we evolved from primates. In this case, I'm inclined to side with Science, but in that choice, I say that it is because Science is our own human ability to understand our world logically and that the Garden of Eden story is just that in my view; a story, albeit there is an obvious moral to it that is still of sound concept.

The Big Bang Theory says that several elements came together to form said Big Bang. Where did they come from in the first place? Something from nothing? That sounds rather "God-Like" of you ask me. Could it not be so far-fetched that perhaps a God-like entity of some sort had to start this long evolutionary process to begin with? That's my own take on it... I can't proof it obviously, but its a theory that makes sense to me and it's no more than that; a theory. You don't have to like or accept it, just respect it.


MY FINAL WORDS TO YOU OR ANYONE:
If I at anytime came off as a tad confrontational in my views, that was not my intent. The bottom line is that you should live your life however it's comfortable for you without worrying about what's up in the sky, or out in space, or after we die.

In the end, you've spent thinking time that could be better used to figuring out how to fix that leaky sink in your kitchen, work on the novel you've been wanting to write, or take painting lessons.



Remember...

"It is what it is."

 

[garfoldsomeoneelse]

I agree with every post so far. Especially OP.


EDIT: Except for this one.

Oh and its 4 in the morning and I'm being kept awake by a now half-empty 2 litre of coke.

In other words, 1 litre of coke

I'm atheist too but some people enjoy religion and I just let 'em get on with it.

As for the question of why God would allow suffering... well, I'll leave that one up to a religious fellow.

Agreeing with OP entirely, I have to say, I disagree. As someone who believes that the only way our species can advance is through, I believe that allowing people to go "fuck it, I can do whatever I want because it's god's plan for me; I'm gonna sit at home, jerk off and live off my girlfriend for the rest of my life because if god wanted me to do differently, he'd say so" for the rest of eternity can only be detrimental to humanity as a whole.

So how about the people who claim that God said "stop living off your girlfriend and do something useful", and went off and did something useful?

Name two.

 

[Baby Tea]

So how about the people who claim that God said "stop living off your girlfriend and do something useful", and went off and did something useful?

Name two.

Micheal W Smith and Myself.