Personal Opinion on Religion (Atheist View)

[anNIALLator]

God allows suffering because mankind choice to disobey Him. God loves everyone and therefore He gives us a choice whether to accept Him or deny Him. I'm not going to go into a huge spiel about this, but if you want the answers to those questions, go to the first book of the Bible (Genisis). God allows bad things to happen because we have asked Him to step out of our lives and just leave us alone. Therefore, He has stepped out. Why should we tell Him to back off and then when bad things happen, ask Him to help us? (You probably figured it out, but I'm a Christian)

This is the thing I don't get. What kind of petty, vindictive being bears a grudge against an entire race that it claims to love? And, the 'We'? What's with that? Who's we? Some stupid rib-woman who ate a magic apple? And you make it out to sound like this god is so fair, "ooh, you can choose to love me, or get raped by a guy with a trident forever when you die"? That's not a choice! And I don't care what someone's excuse is, in my book, if you're in a position to prevent the holocaust at no cost to yourself and you don't, then you're either just as evil as hitler or completely apathetic. Sorry if I come off as a ranting dickhead, I just get riled up by this topic for some reason...

 

[Vanguard_Ex]

I've always considered that our " orderly ways" stem for from " Mindfulness, self control, self discipline, forethought, compassion, common sense ( which is apparently not as common as the word suggests these days) and trial and error"

basically you can't have a good hunting party without some conduct, and rules, cant keep a clan together without some control, cant form a society without it, and as I see that nature in things other than human, lead me to hold it as something thats a basic need for any species living in a group/troop/pack/clan etc

That's a good explanation, but it isn't a full explanation. It explains how it might have happened, but it doesn't explain ultimately why.

But if you read what I said again you'll find that what I said is actually reasonable. I took into account the fact that I don't control what circumstances happen, but I do choose what to do in these circumstances. I never said everything was in my control, so I actually wasn't really wrong.

I probably misunderstood a little, but I still say you are what you are partly because of the circumstances you were put in, which is beyond your control. While your answers come from yourself, you're still forced to answer the questions that are given to you, which shape you similarly, because nobody answers a question that was never asked. I hope I'm not being redundant, but I think that gets the point across.

That is actually a very good point. What you're saying is, I am what I am but only as a result of the circumstances I have ever been put in. No, I do see your point now, and it is a good one. This is why I like to think that probability is the closest thing to any 'greater power'.

 

[DeathsAmbassador]

My understanding is that religion originated from dreams.

My theory is that it came from our tendency to anthropomorphizing things, which is a twelve dollar word meaning "assigning human traits to inhuman things"

Actually that's called personification.

Religion is an answer to why we are here, not how. Leave it at that. Someone believes something you can't, leave them to it.

That's the way I feel too. I do believe in God and I know there are some crazy religious people out there that structure their entire life and beliefs around God and the Bible, but that's (in my opinion) being narrow minded. I think the best thing we all can do is be as open minded as possible no matter what our belief system is. Which is why I get so mad when people start forcing their beliefs on others, religious or not.

This might come off the wrong way, but in itself there's nothing wrong with being narrow-minded. Without trying to go into a lengthy response here, I want to mention a few things your post made me think of.

1. You seem to think it's a bad thing to be narrow-minded. (Let me know if I'm wrong, as I'm making an assumption here.)

Let me start by saying that in a world with perfect people, there is no opinion or preference or misunderstanding, there is only truth. Perfection is impartial, but remains all inclusive of good things. Therefore, being narrow-minded is in one sense a good thing, as long as you actually know the truth. Since people are fallible, we cannot know the truth in its entirety, but we can still have a good idea.

2. To call anything bad, there must be an objective standard, or else the meaning is nonexistent.

I've come to believe that nothing is subjective, and the only reason anyone believes in subjectivity is because of our own fallibility. Think about it. Truth is absolute and objective. Truth can be relative, meaning the context of the situation is taken into account, but it is still consistent with an absolute. Subjective truth, however, does not exist, because truth is not defined by people.

3. Objective truth therefore applies to even abstract things, such as law and beauty

I'll take the example of law, since it's simpler. The premise of judicial law is not that a guilty person committed what someone thinks is a crime, but that a guilty person committed a crime (beyond a reasonable doubt of course, but you get the idea). Subjective law does not work, because any moron could say it's not only permissible, but good to indiscriminately disembowel people. I'm using a hyperbolic example, but it gets the point across, and I think everybody here will agree with me that disemboweling random people (or anyone, really) is not only not permissible, but vile. The law therefore requires an objective standard. Some might say there is no law, but anybody being disemboweled is going to feel some form of violation or injustice, which I think handily defeats that argument.

So I guess what I'm trying to get at is (assuming I didn't overanalyze your statement), by what standard do you think being narrow-minded is a bad thing?

You have a point there. What I meant by being open-minded was to be accepting of everyone, and I do think that there is a time and a place for being narrow minded. Of course I'm horrible at explaining these kinds of things so no matter what I say it'll probably always come of the wrong way.

 

[Biek]

I believe Atheism = Somethingism. Everyone believes in something.

 

[Northpaw]

You have a point there. What I meant by being open-minded was to be accepting of everyone, and I do think that there is a time and a place for being narrow minded. Of course I'm horrible at explaining these kinds of things so no matter what I say it'll probably always come of the wrong way.

That's totally cool with me. I believe in being open-minded (within reason) because I recognize my fallibility and the fallibility of others. I'm not a perfectly reliable source of information and neither is anyone else.

 

[the1ringer]

Learn to comprehend what someone is saying in a post before you call them a "u fukin retard", or do not post yourself, lest you look like a total idiot.

What difference does it make? If you are right I am going to heaven anyway. If I am right I am going to absorbed back into the natural world via worm guts and my essence will rejoin it all. Seriously... why is it so important to some Christians that people become Christians?

Cuddly, according to the Bible you will spend eternity in Hell (apart from the grace of God in changing your heart and giving you faith in Him) so it makes a very large difference. It is important to us because Scripture says you are dying in your own sin (again, which all Christians were saved from themselves), and you will be punished for eternity. You tell us we should help others in life and improve society, and according to our God that's the best way to do it.

You said you thought Scripture to be self-contradictory and yet your example was that it contradicted your personal beliefs. You then repeated that it was convoluted.

To those who say Christians should stay out of government, you need to read more history before you make a statement like that. Funny thing is most countries who have said that end up becoming Christian countries or just collapse.

Spacelord, you say I shouldn't say "Our Lord." Well you are then asking me to change my beliefs. According to Scripture, God's Law and Providential Will over-arches everyone whether they acknowledge it or not.

The problem of tolerance, as it seems to me, is it really isn't practical. You may say I shouldn't say we are all sinners, but you are then being intolerant of my believing we are and that it is an important part of my beliefs so I must say so or the rest does not make sense. It all seems to go round in circles.

TheDoctor445: Yes we were made in God's Image (I believe it was His spiritual image, since God is a spirit and not physical), but through the Fall it was corrupted. God has certain communicable attributes that He gave us, albeit in a limited way, and some we cannot have. The Bible tells us God is infinite, immutable, and holy. Well we know humans are neither, so those are incommunicable. He did give us Love, Justice, the ability to reason intelligently (we don't always use that one), and others. But in our original sin we corrupted these. That is why we are not always just, sometimes very hateful of others (I believe hatred of sin is moral, but not people and certainly not God), and why we can sin at all.

As Northpaw said, sin is, in both the Biblical Hebrew and Greek, "Missing the mark." In the Bible that mark is understood to be the Law of God. So you may say you are not a sinner according to your own standards but according to the Bible's you are.

Why do people seem to think any form of religion must be entirely subjective? Or why do they think it should be whatever "floats your boat?" The word Religion is derived from Latin "Religio" meaning, "Careful study of divine things." Its ultimate roots are "re" + "lego" which means to "go over it again" or "consider carefully."

 

[cuddly_tomato]

What difference does it make? If you are right I am going to heaven anyway. If I am right I am going to absorbed back into the natural world via worm guts and my essence will rejoin it all. Seriously... why is it so important to some Christians that people become Christians?

Cuddly, according to the Bible you will spend eternity in Hell (apart from the grace of God in changing your heart and giving you faith in Him) so it makes a very large difference. It is important to us because Scripture says you are dying in your own sin (again, which all Christians were saved from themselves), and you will be punished for eternity. You tell us we should help others in life and improve society, and according to our God that's the best way to do it.

If your God only has room in Heaven for only those with "club membership" then I would rather be in Hell quite frankly. If this is the case he is far less than you consider him to be.

To those who say Christians should stay out of government, you need to read more history before you make a statement like that. Funny thing is most countries who have said that end up becoming Christian countries or just collapse.

No, I said God should stay out of government. I don't mind religious people being in government, I don't mind government employees making oaths to gods they believe in, I don't mind them having a moral compass about behaviour based on religious ideals.

I do mind if they make decisions about me based on what they think God wants them to do.

 

[traceur_]

What difference does it make? If you are right I am going to heaven anyway. If I am right I am going to absorbed back into the natural world via worm guts and my essence will rejoin it all. Seriously... why is it so important to some Christians that people become Christians?

Cuddly, according to the Bible you will spend eternity in Hell (apart from the grace of God in changing your heart and giving you faith in Him) so it makes a very large difference. It is important to us because Scripture says you are dying in your own sin (again, which all Christians were saved from themselves), and you will be punished for eternity. You tell us we should help others in life and improve society, and according to our God that's the best way to do it.

If your God only has room in Heaven for those with "club membership" then I would rather be in Hell quite frankly. If this is the case he is far less than you consider him to be.

To those who say Christians should stay out of government, you need to read more history before you make a statement like that. Funny thing is most countries who have said that end up becoming Christian countries or just collapse.

No, I said God should stay out of government. I don't mind religious people being in government, I don't mind government employees making oaths to gods they believe in, I don't mind them having a moral compass about behaviour based on religious ideals.

I do mind if they make decisions about me based on what they think God wants them to do.

I agree, governments should be run by reason and logic, if governments have a bit of faith that's fine but it's not fine when that faith starts controlling them.

 

[The Young One]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ariane_Sherine_and_Richard_Dawkins_at_the_Atheist_Bus_Campaign_launch.jpg

 

[the1ringer]

If your God only has room in Heaven for only those with "club membership" then I would rather be in Hell quite frankly. If this is the case he is far less than you consider him to be.

It is not about any form of club membership. According to Scripture, the race of humanity has willingly and with full knowledge separated itself from God, and is living in complete rebellion against Him. We are drowning ourselves in our own sin, God chooses to rescue some of us, and yet people call that unfair. You, right now, have infinitely more than you deserve, which God has given you. He cannot stand the presence of sin, because He is Holy. He is actually far more than I think Him to be. I cannot begin to comprehend the holiness, or the grace, or the love, or the justice, or the wrath of God! I can only have a very limited knowledge of any of these. If I could have more understanding of Him, I would be more humble, more loving, more grateful, and more perfect, I am sure.

I don't think you understand what you say when you say you'd rather be in Hell. That means separated from God, from anything good, for eternity. It is eternal punishment, and that punishment is infinitely greater than any that can be experienced on earth. Remember that the God of the Bible would know more about you than you do (meaning He knows what you need better than you do) so He can either give you eternal glory, joy, and life, in the presence of God doing what He created you to do, or eternal death.

Richard Dawkins is a pitiful pitiful man. Why would you invest so much in what will vanish in an instant when observed from the light of eternity?

 

[Worgen]

If your God only has room in Heaven for only those with "club membership" then I would rather be in Hell quite frankly. If this is the case he is far less than you consider him to be.

It is not about any form of club membership. According to Scripture, the race of humanity has willingly and with full knowledge separated itself from God, and is living in complete rebellion against Him. We are drowning ourselves in our own sin, God chooses to rescue some of us, and yet people call that unfair. You, right now, have infinitely more than you deserve, which God has given you. He cannot stand the presence of sin, because He is Holy. He is actually far more than I think Him to be. I cannot begin to comprehend the holiness, or the grace, or the love, or the justice, or the wrath of God! I can only have a very limited knowledge of any of these. If I could have more understanding of Him, I would be more humble, more loving, more grateful, and more perfect, I am sure.

I don't think you understand what you say when you say you'd rather be in Hell. That means separated from God, from anything good, for eternity. It is eternal punishment, and that punishment is infinitely greater than any that can be experienced on earth. Remember that the God of the Bible would know more about you than you do (meaning He knows what you need better than you do) so He can either give you eternal glory, joy, and life, in the presence of God doing what He created you to do, or eternal death.

Richard Dawkins is a pitiful pitiful man. Why would you invest so much in what will vanish in an instant when observed from the light of eternity?

what is so good about your god? from reading the bible he sounds fantasticly insecure, cruel and childish, 3 aspects I reeeeeeaaly look for in a supreme being <.<

why did christianity/islam/judaism have to be the main religion in the world? the old gods were so much more interesting, Ill take a Bast or Odin or Thor over "god" or jesus anyday, granted the likely hood of any of them existing is about as close to zero as you can get but at least the old ones had good stories

 

[Zero-Vash]

I have been raised Christian and have just recently made the conscious choice to remain one. I believe that faith is a major part of religion. Without it there wouldn't really be religion. My view of God is he/her/it is a presence we cannot understand. Try to picture infinity. I don't know about you but I can't. There are somethings that we just can't mentally grasp. But even if God isn't omnipotent, I do believe in a higher presence that is a creator. You look at the structure of the universe and it is practically the definition of statistically impossible. For everything to happen perfectly the way it did is remarkable. There is a book whose name escapes me right now that explains that concept in more detail. But the findings in the book were from both atheist and religious scientists. Every one of them, in an attempt to logically explain our existence, began to see evidence of some creator. Now as for religion, I can't stand those who preach fire and brimstone. I don't believe that to be how Christians were meant to spread the Word. If you don't believe in a higher presence, that is your decision. I will respect that, but it wont stop me from sharing my view. I try not to say "I am right, you are wrong", just give your opinion and I will give mine.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Religion is the logical outgrowth of ceremonial burial.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

If your God only has room in Heaven for only those with "club membership" then I would rather be in Hell quite frankly. If this is the case he is far less than you consider him to be.

It is not about any form of club membership. According to Scripture, the race of humanity has willingly and with full knowledge separated itself from God, and is living in complete rebellion against Him. We are drowning ourselves in our own sin, God chooses to rescue some of us, and yet people call that unfair. You, right now, have infinitely more than you deserve, which God has given you. He cannot stand the presence of sin, because He is Holy. He is actually far more than I think Him to be. I cannot begin to comprehend the holiness, or the grace, or the love, or the justice, or the wrath of God! I can only have a very limited knowledge of any of these. If I could have more understanding of Him, I would be more humble, more loving, more grateful, and more perfect, I am sure.

'Club membership' is exactly what it is. If a good and noble person dies, but is refused entry to heaven on the grounds that he didn't applaud God loudly enough while he was alive, then the God in question is a narcissistic sociopath. That is hardly a godly quality at all is it?

I don't think you understand what you say when you say you'd rather be in Hell. That means separated from God, from anything good, for eternity. It is eternal punishment, and that punishment is infinitely greater than any that can be experienced on earth. Remember that the God of the Bible would know more about you than you do (meaning He knows what you need better than you do) so He can either give you eternal glory, joy, and life, in the presence of God doing what He created you to do, or eternal death.

'Punishment' for what? I do not believe in god - that is a far cry from being an evil twat. And there are many who believe in god who are pretty vile themselves (Phelps springs to mind). So Phelps is getting a free pass to an eternity of greatness, while myself and the Dali Lama are going straight to hell? I know whos company I would like to keep, and so if you are right I am comfortable with my decision to head down and not up, so to speak.

Also, I have a question for you - what if someone dies, without believing in god, and they are under 18? Is it really fair to punish a child for all eternity for making a mistake? And Hell (a firey place where you get bum-sexed by demons all day) is really not a place for minors is it?

So do the under-18s receive exemption from Hell? Or are the film classification bureau more wise and merciful than God?

Richard Dawkins is a pitiful pitiful man. Why would you invest so much in what will vanish in an instant when observed from the light of eternity?

The one thing I do agree is that Dawkins is a pitiful man, but our reasons are probably very different. I find him pitiful because he makes shit up and is filled with hate. You find him pitiful because he doesn't believe in something.

The Bible is not to be taken literally dude. It might have the wisdom of God in there somewhere (I don't know), but it was written by the hands of men. There are many spiritual paths in this world and many different belief systems. Yours is simply one of many, and isn't the "right" one at all. They all have great value and all have a spark of divinity in them (whether that is human creativity or actual spiritual divinity, I am sure you get the point before any fundy atheists jump on me). You should give that some consideration.

 

[Sinker]

Religion is a security blanket that weak people use to come to grips with their own mortality and to comfort themselves with their position in life by beleiving their death will be better.

 

[the1ringer]

If your God only has room in Heaven for only those with "club membership" then I would rather be in Hell quite frankly. If this is the case he is far less than you consider him to be.

It is not about any form of club membership. According to Scripture, the race of humanity has willingly and with full knowledge separated itself from God, and is living in complete rebellion against Him. We are drowning ourselves in our own sin, God chooses to rescue some of us, and yet people call that unfair. You, right now, have infinitely more than you deserve, which God has given you. He cannot stand the presence of sin, because He is Holy. He is actually far more than I think Him to be. I cannot begin to comprehend the holiness, or the grace, or the love, or the justice, or the wrath of God! I can only have a very limited knowledge of any of these. If I could have more understanding of Him, I would be more humble, more loving, more grateful, and more perfect, I am sure.

'Club membership' is exactly what it is. If a good and noble person dies, but is refused entry to heaven on the grounds that he didn't applaud God loudly enough while he was alive, then the God in question is a narcissistic sociopath. That is hardly a godly quality at all is it?

I don't think you understand what you say when you say you'd rather be in Hell. That means separated from God, from anything good, for eternity. It is eternal punishment, and that punishment is infinitely greater than any that can be experienced on earth. Remember that the God of the Bible would know more about you than you do (meaning He knows what you need better than you do) so He can either give you eternal glory, joy, and life, in the presence of God doing what He created you to do, or eternal death.

'Punishment' for what? I do not believe in god - that is a far cry from being an evil twat. And there are many who believe in god who are pretty vile themselves (Phelps springs to mind). So Phelps is getting a free pass to an eternity of greatness, while myself and the Dali Lama are going straight to hell? I know whos company I would like to keep, and so if you are right I am comfortable with my decision to head down and not up, so to speak.

Also, I have a question for you - what if someone dies, without believing in god, and they are under 18? Is it really fair to punish a child for all eternity for making a mistake? And Hell (a firey place where you get bum-sexed by demons all day) is really not a place for minors is it?

So do the under-18s receive exemption from Hell? Or are the film classification bureau more wise and merciful than God?

Richard Dawkins is a pitiful pitiful man. Why would you invest so much in what will vanish in an instant when observed from the light of eternity?

The one thing I do agree is that Dawkins is a pitiful man, but our reasons are probably very different. I find him pitiful because he makes shit up and is filled with hate. You find him pitiful because he doesn't believe in something.

The Bible is not to be taken literally dude. It might have the wisdom of God in there somewhere (I don't know), but it was written by the hands of men. There are many spiritual paths in this world and many different belief systems. Yours is simply one of many, and isn't the "right" one at all. They all have great value and all have a spark of divinity in them (whether that is human creativity or actual spiritual divinity, I am sure you get the point before any fundy atheists jump on me). You should give that some consideration.

Hold on. The Bible says that not one is righteous, or good. All have gone astray. According to Scripture we are a race living in total rebellion against God. Scripture says our best righteousness is dirty rags to God. God can hardly let someone that hates Him, has lived a whole life in defiance of Him, into Heaven. If anyone has sinned ("Missed the mark" which is God's Perfect Holiness)just one time, no matter how small or large it may seem to anyone, then they are a sinner, not to mention they are born into sin. They are imperfect, and cannot be allowed into a perfect place.

It's not just saying you believe in God, or even just believing in God. The demons of Hell believe and tremble. Believing in God does not in any way automatically get you into Heaven. You, I, everyone else, are all sinners who have actively rebelled against God. God institutes something like marriage, mankind seeks to take it apart and enjoy certain parts while trying to avoid any consequences. I cannot vouch for Phelps, I don't know if He has truly repented of his sins. If he has, then I don't see it in his life. Again, you and the Dali Lama and everyone else are taking up arms against God. According to scripture you are telling Him you know more than He does because you want to do things differently. You are saying, with your actions and your beliefs, that He is wrong. That you are better than Him.

Alright, on the subject of children. First of all, they are still sinful. All humans are born morally corrupt. I'm not entirely sure, and I haven't studied the Bible as much as others on this subject, so I will give the best I can. Jesus Christ, while on earth, exhibited a great love for children, and all who are at a disadvantage. We read that Heaven is full of children. Job and Solomon both speak of it being better to die in infancy than to live a life of wickedness. Job even mentions, in his wish that he had been a stillborn child, that he would have then gone straight to his rest. Heaven is always spoken of as the Rest that is to be our Reward. I think there is strong evidence in Scripture that infants will automatically be included in God's plan of salvation.

This, of course, begs another question: What about children or even mentally impaired people, what about people who have never heard the Law or Gospel?

People often ask at what age a human becomes accountable for their actions and needs repentance. Well, I don't think it's an age. I think it to be a condition. In other words, it depends on the person. Many Christians claim they had knowledge of their sins and repented at the age of 6 or 7. From what I can see of their (the people I know who claim to have been saved at an early age) lives their salvation seems to be just as life-changing as mine. I think you become accountable when you have reached (either from Scripture or your conscience) sufficient mental maturity to be held accountable for their sins. I really think this has to be left up to God to decide. Of course, He is omniscient, knows more about those individual people than they do or we do, but He consistently cares and loves for the poor throughout the Bible.

So my answer would be instant Heaven.

As for minors shouldn't see things in Hell... You don't give any reason other than your own opinions and you again do not take into account God's omniscience and sovereignty. Anyone that would believe and bring glory to God in belief will be saved. God does not waste a single life.

I never said Dawkins was pitiful because he doesn't believe in something. He is pitiful because he makes statements that he can't support. He mocks "religious" people and makes a fool of himself. That is what makes him, to me, any more pitiful than any other man. The human race, as a whole, is pitiful for unbelief.

You make statements like this "The Bible is not to be taken literally" but don't give me any reason to actually doubt Scripture. If I take away all the statements that say Christianity is the only way, then it is not hardly Christianity anymore. According to Scripture, it was written by the hands of men guided by the Holy Spirit, Who used each writer's style to convey God's Word, but it is still His in every way. What reason to I have to follow Christianity, to live and die for it, if it is not the only way and I could take an easier way? Again, this statement of all religions leading the same way and there being many paths, is basically saying there is either no truth and it's all bogus, or truth is subjective and is anything you want it to be.

Christianity is so far different from any and all other beliefs or "paths" I don't want to get into it now without turning the conversation more entirely onto that subject.

May I ask, if you say Christianity is one way among many, how then do you explain Jesus Christ?

Religion is a security blanket that weak people use to come to grips with their own mortality and to comfort themselves with their position in life by beleiving their death will be better.

Well, if Scripture is indeed the perfect word of God, and all its claims are objective truth, then it is other religions and views that are escapes from reality. It saddens me when I only see these little one-liners and no real and honest discussion. I'm sorry but I cannot agree that men like George Washington, William Wilburforce, Martin Luther, all of the apostles, and millions upon millions more were weaker than the above poster. Nothing against you personally Sinker.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

Spoiler

If your God only has room in Heaven for only those with "club membership" then I would rather be in Hell quite frankly. If this is the case he is far less than you consider him to be.

It is not about any form of club membership. According to Scripture, the race of humanity has willingly and with full knowledge separated itself from God, and is living in complete rebellion against Him. We are drowning ourselves in our own sin, God chooses to rescue some of us, and yet people call that unfair. You, right now, have infinitely more than you deserve, which God has given you. He cannot stand the presence of sin, because He is Holy. He is actually far more than I think Him to be. I cannot begin to comprehend the holiness, or the grace, or the love, or the justice, or the wrath of God! I can only have a very limited knowledge of any of these. If I could have more understanding of Him, I would be more humble, more loving, more grateful, and more perfect, I am sure.

'Club membership' is exactly what it is. If a good and noble person dies, but is refused entry to heaven on the grounds that he didn't applaud God loudly enough while he was alive, then the God in question is a narcissistic sociopath. That is hardly a godly quality at all is it?

I don't think you understand what you say when you say you'd rather be in Hell. That means separated from God, from anything good, for eternity. It is eternal punishment, and that punishment is infinitely greater than any that can be experienced on earth. Remember that the God of the Bible would know more about you than you do (meaning He knows what you need better than you do) so He can either give you eternal glory, joy, and life, in the presence of God doing what He created you to do, or eternal death.

'Punishment' for what? I do not believe in god - that is a far cry from being an evil twat. And there are many who believe in god who are pretty vile themselves (Phelps springs to mind). So Phelps is getting a free pass to an eternity of greatness, while myself and the Dali Lama are going straight to hell? I know whos company I would like to keep, and so if you are right I am comfortable with my decision to head down and not up, so to speak.

Also, I have a question for you - what if someone dies, without believing in god, and they are under 18? Is it really fair to punish a child for all eternity for making a mistake? And Hell (a firey place where you get bum-sexed by demons all day) is really not a place for minors is it?

So do the under-18s receive exemption from Hell? Or are the film classification bureau more wise and merciful than God?

Richard Dawkins is a pitiful pitiful man. Why would you invest so much in what will vanish in an instant when observed from the light of eternity?

The one thing I do agree is that Dawkins is a pitiful man, but our reasons are probably very different. I find him pitiful because he makes shit up and is filled with hate. You find him pitiful because he doesn't believe in something.

The Bible is not to be taken literally dude. It might have the wisdom of God in there somewhere (I don't know), but it was written by the hands of men. There are many spiritual paths in this world and many different belief systems. Yours is simply one of many, and isn't the "right" one at all. They all have great value and all have a spark of divinity in them (whether that is human creativity or actual spiritual divinity, I am sure you get the point before any fundy atheists jump on me). You should give that some consideration.

Hold on. The Bible says that not one is righteous, or good. All have gone astray. According to Scripture we are a race living in total rebellion against God. Scripture says our best righteousness is dirty rags to God. God can hardly let someone that hates Him, has lived a whole life in defiance of Him, into Heaven. If anyone has sinned ("Missed the mark" which is God's Perfect Holiness)just one time, no matter how small or large it may seem to anyone, then they are a sinner, not to mention they are born into sin. They are imperfect, and cannot be allowed into a perfect place.

It's not just saying you believe in God, or even just believing in God. The demons of Hell believe and tremble. Believing in God does not in any way automatically get you into Heaven. You, I, everyone else, are all sinners who have actively rebelled against God. God institutes something like marriage, mankind seeks to take it apart and enjoy certain parts while trying to avoid any consequences. I cannot vouch for Phelps, I don't know if He has truly repented of his sins. If he has, then I don't see it in his life. Again, you and the Dali Lama and everyone else are taking up arms against God. According to scripture you are telling Him you know more than He does because you want to do things differently. You are saying, with your actions and your beliefs, that He is wrong. That you are better than Him.

Alright, on the subject of children. First of all, they are still sinful. All humans are born morally corrupt. I'm not entirely sure, and I haven't studied the Bible as much as others on this subject, so I will give the best I can. Jesus Christ, while on earth, exhibited a great love for children, and all who are at a disadvantage. We read that Heaven is full of children. Job and Solomon both speak of it being better to die in infancy than to live a life of wickedness. Job even mentions, in his wish that he had been a stillborn child, that he would have then gone straight to his rest. Heaven is always spoken of as the Rest that is to be our Reward. I think there is strong evidence in Scripture that infants will automatically be included in God's plan of salvation.

This, of course, begs another question: What about children or even mentally impaired people, what about people who have never heard the Law or Gospel?

People often ask at what age a human becomes accountable for their actions and needs repentance. Well, I don't think it's an age. I think it to be a condition. In other words, it depends on the person. Many Christians claim they had knowledge of their sins and repented at the age of 6 or 7. From what I can see of their (the people I know who claim to have been saved at an early age) lives their salvation seems to be just as life-changing as mine. I think you become accountable when you have reached (either from Scripture or your conscience) sufficient mental maturity to be held accountable for their sins. I really think this has to be left up to God to decide. Of course, He is omniscient, knows more about those individual people than they do or we do, but He consistently cares and loves for the poor throughout the Bible.

So my answer would be instant Heaven.

As for minors shouldn't see things in Hell... You don't give any reason other than your own opinions and you again do not take into account God's omniscience and sovereignty. Anyone that would believe and bring glory to God in belief will be saved. God does not waste a single life.

I never said Dawkins was pitiful because he doesn't believe in something. He is pitiful because he makes statements that he can't support. He mocks "religious" people and makes a fool of himself. That is what makes him, to me, any more pitiful than any other man. The human race, as a whole, is pitiful for unbelief.

You make statements like this "The Bible is not to be taken literally" but don't give me any reason to actually doubt Scripture. If I take away all the statements that say Christianity is the only way, then it is not hardly Christianity anymore. According to Scripture, it was written by the hands of men guided by the Holy Spirit, Who used each writer's style to convey God's Word, but it is still His in every way. What reason to I have to follow Christianity, to live and die for it, if it is not the only way and I could take an easier way? Again, this statement of all religions leading the same way and there being many paths, is basically saying there is either no truth and it's all bogus, or truth is subjective and is anything you want it to be.

Christianity is so far different from any and all other beliefs or "paths" I don't want to get into it now without turning the conversation more entirely onto that subject.

May I ask, if you say Christianity is one way among many, how then do you explain Jesus Christ?

On scripture:- A reason to doubt it? It is full of things which, if taken literally, are provably wrong. Creation, a six thousand year old earth, dinosaurs living with people, etc. It's all wrong if taken as a historical document. Taken as an allegory of faith and it's fine.

On eligibility to enter Heaven:- no idea is more abhorrent too me than the notion that God throws everyone into Hell who doesn't lick His omnipotent balls enough while he they are alive. The notion of this is completely at odds with any kind of idea that God is good in any way. If this is the case, he has more in common with Kim Jong-Il than with Jesus Christ.

The third most distasteful idea is that kids, little babies in incubators, are "morally corrupt". No. Just no.

(just a FYI- second most abhorrent idea is that animals are less than human or are just put about for human convienence - humans are animals).

On Jesus:- I explain him as a very intelligent and peace-loving Jewish dissident of the Roman occupation who asked people to resist non-violently. Much as what happened with Martin King, his deeds made a lot of headway, and thus he became a threat. Not only to the Romans themselves, but also to those elements of the Jewish resistance who were more militant in their agendas and wanted more forceful action. He paid with his life for being a good man, and maybe he knew he ultimately would. A good man, and a man to revere through the ages.

But not a man who suggested that anyone who doesn't do what he said would be raped by a big demon for all eternity. The very opposite in fact. Just another reason not to take the Bible literally.

On religion in general:- I don't believe in traditional concepts of religion, and I personally feel that your kind of religion (blindly following a path purely because you have been trained to believe it) is inherently destructive. I think that spirituality, religion which follows the music of the heart and spirit, that comes from the compassion and feeling of the soul, is a good thing. Whether it actually exists or not is secondary to the beneficial part of it, that of giving our lives some direction and focus. Something other than the flat and cold logic that the fundy atheists cling too which is warm and answers some questions we ask about "why". But in these instances it is your religion. Even if those answers are found in the words of Buddha or in the pages of the Bible it should be your interpretation and what they mean to you. Not someone else. Small scale organised religion, such as covens and people who are like minded getting together to celebrate their personal religious beliefs together, is also good.

Religion, spirituality, faith, and other such flowery stuff = good.

Large organised religion and dogmatic indoctrination = bad.

Religion is personal. Thus there are as many paths to it as there are people on earth.

One more thing...

Again, you and the Dali Lama and everyone else are taking up arms against God.

No, according to some Buddhists, the Dalai Lama is god. He's the incarnation of the Bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara. Thanks to my dearest Buddhist girlfriend for that info, who you offended pretty badly Ringer. How can god take up arms against himself?

 

[Northpaw]

On eligibility to enter Heaven:- no idea is more abhorrent too me than the notion that God throws everyone into Hell who doesn't lick His omnipotent balls enough while he they are alive. The notion of this is completely at odds with any kind of idea that God is good in any way. If this is the case, he has more in common with Kim Jong-Il than with Jesus Christ.

The third most distasteful idea is that kids, little babies in incubators, are "morally corrupt". No. Just no.

(just a FYI- second most abhorrent idea is that animals are less than human or are just put about for human convienence - humans are animals).

A few things I want to say.

On eligibility to enter Heaven:
You're looking at it from only a very negative point of view. The premise is that people choose to do evil and become imperfect. Since imperfection is incompatible with perfection, somehow people must be made perfect again. We're given a chance at being redeemed, but it requires faith. On top of that faith should be good works, or else the faith is meaningless, but the works themselves will save no one, because they will not make anyone perfect again. This is how Christians view it, and we realize full well that we do not deserve redemption any more than anyone else. We are nothing special, we just believe. You view it as needless damnation, we view it as undeserved salvation. One other thing, though not very important, that I'd like to point out: demons will themselves be prisoners in hell and there's no Biblical evidence to suggest they will administer torture to anyone. I have to wonder when and why that became a popular belief.

As for the other things you find abhorrent. I believe humans are more important, though not inherently better than animals. I wouldn't think twice about swatting a fly, but that doesn't mean I don't have a certain respect for the ecosystem and balance, but I still believe people come first. For example, I also wouldn't think twice about saving a human even if it somehow meant a species of animal would go extinct. Balance of nature and humane treatment of animals is good, preservation of human decency is better. Often the two go hand in hand, but one trumps the other in my book.

About babies in incubators being corrupt, I think you misunderstand. I believe man is predisposed to certain sins, which also varies by person. My greatest faults are laziness and apathy, but not everyone else struggles with the same things, and neither do I struggle with things such as substance abuse or envy. If we believed people were born or conceived evil, that would mean Christ would also have been evil, inherently. Since we do not believe that, we therefore don't believe people are born evil, but predisposed to it.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

Northpaw... the idea that Ringer seems to have, that not cheering God on in life is a sure way to be tortured after death, is so utterly evil if such a thing is true your God isn't worth worshipping, and no Heaven of his would be paradise. That was my general point. If you want to say that the evil go to hell and the good go to heaven... ok. I don't agree but I can at least understand that point of view. I just can't get my head around the idea that this all powerful and merciful creator of everything, who is perfect in all ways, demands that all His creations spend their entire lives throwing fawning over him or they get punished. We have examples of leaders who behaved this way in history, Nero, Bonaparte, Henry the 8th. Vicious tyrants all of them, with an unhealthy level of malignant narcissism. That can't be a god who is a force of good.

I don't view Hell as anything really because I simply don't believe in it. Even if I did, I certainly couldn't bring myself to believe in a single, omnipotent god. I don't begrudge those who think otherwise and will not attempt to persuade you otherwise, because I don't rightly know, but I personally just can't get my head around it. That can't reasonably be called a sin - don't forget that just like homosexuality belief is not really a choice.

As for the other things you find abhorrent. I believe humans are more important, though not inherently better than animals. I wouldn't think twice about swatting a fly, but that doesn't mean I don't have a certain respect for the ecosystem and balance, but I still believe people come first.

You did something very special and important there, you added the words "I believe", thus you acknowedged that you might be incorrect and these are your personal viewpoints. I can respect that, even if I disagree with it. You didn't attempt to preach.

 

[Iskenator67]

If you could reason with religious people there would be no religious people.