Personal Opinion on Religion (Atheist View)

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cuddly_tomato

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Godofgame67 said:
If you could reason with religious people there would be no religious people.
Well [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denis_Alexander], the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Barrow] problem [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Collins_(geneticist)] is [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_T._Bakker] your [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archbishop_Damaskinos] opinion [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_O%27Flaherty] is [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Lichtenberg] not [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A1ra_Salkah%C3%A1zi] founded [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omelyan_Kovch] on [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andr%C3%A9_and_Magda_Trocm%C3%A9] objectivity [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilian_Kolbe#Auschwitz] or [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Delp] on [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_de_Jong] fact [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Chagas_Filho]. :p

Would it be so unreasonable to ask those invoking 'reason' to themselves be reasonable? I suppose it would.
 

SnowCold

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Wow, another religon bashing thread in disguese...
My spears is starting to get blunt, and the blood won't come off.
 

The Young One

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SnowCold said:
Wow, another religon bashing thread in disguese...
My spears is starting to get blunt, and the blood won't come off.
Have you tried bleach?
I've found that works.
 

clicketycrack

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I believe in God to avoid prison. I see other people as big chunks of shit on shit sandwiches with shit on top so if I didn't believe in some kind of higher power I'd just go on a killing spree for kicks.
 

Northpaw

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cuddly_tomato said:
I don't view Hell as anything really because I simply don't believe in it. Even if I did, I certainly couldn't bring myself to believe in a single, omnipotent god. I don't begrudge those who think otherwise and will not attempt to persuade you otherwise, because I don't rightly know, but I personally just can't get my head around it. That can't reasonably be called a sin - don't forget that just like homosexuality belief is not really a choice.


You did something very special and important there, you added the words "I believe", thus you acknowedged that you might be incorrect and these are your personal viewpoints. I can respect that, even if I disagree with it. You didn't attempt to preach.
I would disagree that homosexuality is not a choice. I believe predisposition toward homosexuality is not a choice, but the act of or embracing of homosexuality is indeed a choice. Speaking of homosexuality, I saw that you mentioned Phelps, and I have a few words to say about him. He's a total douche who may have all the faith in the world, but I doubt is saved. Though in some areas, he's theologically correct, he's missing out on the more important parts.

1 John chapter 4 verses 11 and 20 tell us "Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen."

Fred Phelps is a terrible example of a person. You asked the1ringer if Phelps would go to Heaven while you and the Dali Lama would go to Hell. Even though you didn't ask me, I'd like to answer the question anyway. I don't believe you or the Dali Lama are saved, but even worse is Fred Phelps. I believe you and the Dali Lama are ignorant, but well-meaning people, whereas Fred Phelps is more than just ignorant, but destructive and dangerous. God loves you and the Dali Lama just as much as he loves Phelps, but I think Phelps is the one who will have the most to answer for unless he seriously changes his ways.

The reason I told you that is I want you to understand that loving is what we're told is the most important thing to do, and I don't want you to have the misconception that God would consider people like Phelps to be good when he's damaging legitimate efforts to help people with his tirades.

Anyway, I respect your beliefs too, and I don't want to force my beliefs on anyone, but rather demonstrate to people what I believe by being genuinely loving.
 

Iskenator67

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cuddly_tomato said:
Godofgame67 said:
If you could reason with religious people there would be no religious people.
Well [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denis_Alexander], the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Barrow] problem [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Collins_(geneticist)] is [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_T._Bakker] your [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archbishop_Damaskinos] opinion [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_O%27Flaherty] is [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Lichtenberg] not [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A1ra_Salkah%C3%A1zi] founded [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omelyan_Kovch] on [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andr%C3%A9_and_Magda_Trocm%C3%A9] objectivity [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilian_Kolbe#Auschwitz] or [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Delp] on [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_de_Jong] fact [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Chagas_Filho]. :p

Would it be so unreasonable to ask those invoking 'reason' to themselves be reasonable? I suppose it would.
I have a scientific sample proving my theory. Granted it's a limited sample but based on my observation of this thread for the last 5 minutes all religious people are morons. How can you believe an invisible man who lives in the sky with a list of ten things he doesn't want you to do and will send you to hell if you break any of them loves you? If you want something done you need to do it yourself. Don't rely on something you can't even see or prove exists to get you through the day.

God: 1
Me: 1
In the words of House: Tie goes to the mortal.
 

the1ringer

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I'm not trying to force my beliefs on anyone either. I continuously say "According to Scripture" and as Cuddly Tomato has made clear, he doesn't believe in Scripture. I am really only trying to make my point of view and Christians who believe similarly clear.

That said, I don't think the Bible has anything disprovable in it. You want to give something specific and I can try and answer. You are taking the idea of a six thousand year old earth from human sources not found in Scripture. I'm not sure on the age of the earth, and I don't think anyone is, but I would say it is at least a little more than 6000 years old. Science cannot prove the means by which the earth was created because it is not observable or re-creatable.

As you have consistently ignored my words, I don't know what more I can say to your objections against acceptance into heaven. I suppose I will just re-stress that we are all killing ourselves and God is saving many many of us. We were given a choice, warned of the consequences, and we chose hell. We, in Adam, chose it.

I will say that I believe we are born into sin, as David says, and I wish to make a point on my explanation of Jesus. He was a very unique case, "the Second Adam." He and Adam are the only two men born free of sin. They were both born to represent humanity, and had a choice to allow righteousness for all or destroy any chance at righteousness for any man. Adam, being warned and understanding what would happen if he disobeyed, did the one thing he had been forbidden to do. You may say you would have done differently and deserve a chance. But, due to your sin nature you were born with you would automatically choose the same Adam did. You may say that if you didn't have your sin nature, you would have done better than Adam. Well that would make you a totally different person, so I don't see how you could know what you would do. I don't know whether one of us could have done better. You may say you most certainly could have and would have and it's not fair you haven't been given the chance. I would say that one, God has an infinitely stronger sense of justice than you do, and two, this reflects current reality.

When a father makes a decision, it will affect his family almost certainly. A man goes into debt because of foolish financial decisions, cannot pay it back, and his family will suffer because of it. Adam and Eve both made a conscious informed choice to disobey God and rebel against Him. Now we are born with sin that affects every aspect of our lives. On a side note you are not breaking one commandment, but all of them all the time. If you don't believe in kids being morally perverted from birth, then, as you are accusing others, you are not basing this on objectivity or fact.

Then Christ was born, lived a perfect life, knew temptation better than we did because he endured it His entire life on earth without giving in once. He was not actually hated by the Romans. Read the gospel accounts again and you'll find Pilate wanted to release Him and knew the Jewish leaders only wanted Him dead because of jealousy. I'm not trying to make Pilate a hero but he was smart enough to see why they wanted Him dead. Christ ended up dying a horrible death that no movie can capture (yes even The Passion does not come close). Then his disciples went back to their normal lives. The night of Christ's death they were cowering, deserting their teacher, fleeing, and lied repeatedly about not knowing Him. Two vital points here. People do not fabricate stories about themselves as being the lowest form of coward, and the change they exhibited only days later was, in short, life-changing in the fullest sense of the term. They wrote that Christ rose from the dead (first on the testimony of women more faithful than the men, again very odd in several ways if you're going to make a story up, especially in Jewish culture), spoke with over 500 brothers at one time, and apparently convinced them that He was worth dying for. They all (with the exception of John) died horrible deaths and not one recanted. He cannot be dismissed as just a good guy who was too good for His own good.

I did not say animals are less, but we have dominion over them. Humans often act worse than animals and can behave as far lower. Just because a king is a king over a land by no means makes him greater in any way than any of his subjects. The system of US government is based on the idea of equality (even between leader and those who are lead). This is going to be very unpopular... but it is also like marriage. The husband is the head of the household and family. The wife is just as vital, important, and not less in life than the husband, but she does not lead. Leadership is also a heavy burden. We have the responsibility to take care of, even treasure what God has given us. However, when we focus on this as our life's purpose is when, I believe, we go astray.

As Northpaw said, Hell will also be imprisonment for Satan and his demons, and I'm not sure where you get this constant idea of Hell being eternal sexual abuse. We do know it will be fiery, and I would think a God who created you and who knows more about you than you do, will also know more about how to punish you than you yourself do.

No one can get their head fully around God's omnipotence, or any of His attributes. This is why I can see no point in arguing against His attributes (saying He shouldn't have done this or that, or He shouldn't punish you for this or that), because not you, nor anyone can fully understand His attributes. I'm not trying to force you to believe Christianity either, because God has both turned greater enemies (Nebuchadnezzar, Saul) to Him, and God alone can change you.

You also consistently say that because God punishes us for "not fawning over Him" He is not worthy of worship. Well, first of all, He is more worthy of worship than any other thing we worship, and has every right to demand our worship. But second of all, He created us to worship and I will give an analogy used by both C.S. Lewis, and J.I. Packer (I think Packer explains it a bit better). I will use J.I. Packer's here:

"We are familiar with the thought that our bodies are like machines, needing the right routine of food, rest and exercise if they are to run efficiently, and liable, if filled up with the wrong fuel-alcohol, drugs, poison-to lose their power of healthy functioning and 'seize up' entirely in physical death. What we are, perhaps, is that God wishes us to think of our souls in a similar way. As rational persons, we were made to bear God's moral image-that is, our souls were made to 'run' on the practice of worship, law-keeping, truthfulness, honesty, discipline, self-control, and service to God and our fellows. If we abandon these practices, not only do we incur guilt before God; we progressively destroy our own souls. Conscience atrophies, the sense of shame dries up, one's capacity for truthfulness, loyalty and honesty is eaten away, one's character disintegrates. One not only becomes desperately miserable; one is steadily being dehumanized. This is one aspect of spiritual death. Richard Baxter was right to formulate the alternatives as 'A Saint-or a Brute': that, ultimately, is the only choice, and everyone, sooner or later, consciously or unconsciously opts for one or the other."

J.I. Packer, in Knowing God.

So God is not damning you for not applauding Him enough, it is because you have made yourself a run-down wreck (aside from your own rebellion against Him) that God does not see fit for His Kingdom. When you say you shouldn't worship God you are saying you should slap God in the face and tell Him you hold His plan for how you are to run your life in utter contempt. You have made yourself His enemy and He is going to put you where He puts all of His enemies. These are the ideas as presented, I believe, by the Bible concerning sin and punishment.

I believe in the Bible because it has shown itself to be true in every testable respect and I cannot find a fault with it or the teachings contained therein. If you believe in Christianity simply because your parents taught you to then it is a worthless faith. If it is not your own, personal relationship with God then what good is it?

In all of your arguments that I can see, Cuddly, you assume you know better than God. Again, if God did create you, and if God is omniscient, then does it not follow that He would make different choices than a finite creature would? If not, what good does it do being omniscient or omnipotent?

EDIT: Sorry for the long post! Didn't realize how long it was till I posted it.
 

cuddly_tomato

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Godofgame67 said:
cuddly_tomato said:
Godofgame67 said:
If you could reason with religious people there would be no religious people.
Well [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denis_Alexander], the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Barrow] problem [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Collins_(geneticist)] is [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_T._Bakker] your [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archbishop_Damaskinos] opinion [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_O%27Flaherty] is [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Lichtenberg] not [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A1ra_Salkah%C3%A1zi] founded [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omelyan_Kovch] on [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andr%C3%A9_and_Magda_Trocm%C3%A9]
objectivity [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilian_Kolbe#Auschwitz] or [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Delp] on [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_de_Jong] fact [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Chagas_Filho]. :p

Would it be so unreasonable to ask those invoking 'reason' to themselves be reasonable? I suppose it would.
I have a scientific sample proving my theory. Granted it's a limited sample but based on my observation of this thread for the last 5 minutes all religious people are morons. How can you believe an invisible man who lives in the sky with a list of ten things he doesn't want you to do and will send you to hell if you break any of them loves you? If you want something done you need to do it yourself. Don't rely on something you can't even see or prove exists to get you through the day.

God: 1
Me: 1
In the words of House: Tie goes to the mortal.
Erm... you, in essence, claimed that religious people are not reasonable. I proved to you that this was wrong. You dismissed this, not because the evidence I provided was wrong, but because it didn't fit with your worldview (citing forum posts as "proof" of your own position of all things). You then called everyone who disagrees with your worldview a moron.

Pot... kettle...

Don't worry about it. In a few years, when theophobia is viewed with the same kind of distain as homophobia or xenophobia is today, people will be able to look back and see the militant atheist movement for what it is - a passing fad.