Pile of wood = art?

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bahumat42 said:
Digi7 said:
bahumat42 said:
Digi7 said:
Did it take any skill to make? Fuck no.

Does it subversively mean anything through the visuals or form? Fuck no.

Is it impressive or unique? Again, fuck no.

It holds none of the three prerequisites for art. As an artist I'm ashamed of this shit.

IT IS NOT ART.
ok you win on two counts
one for being totally right
two for creeping me out with your avatar
Scribbled it in Photoshop in two minutes... It really creeps you out? :eek:
And thanks, I am right, aren't I? ;)
its quite cool but im easily spooked i wouldnt worry about it too much
and oiii don't let it go to your head
Yeah I'm just messing with you bud :)
 

Verlander

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TWRule said:
Verlander said:
TWRule said:
I'd have to disagree with you here. There is a massive amount of precedence that counters this, starting(ish) with Marcel Duchamp, and his "Fountain", followed by thousands of artists since.

Art is a communication between artist and audience, nothing more, nothing less.
I'm actually arguing that not everything that the museums call art is actually art, just to clarify.

So in your definition, in what sense do you use "communication"? Certainly not all types of communication between someone who calls themselves an artist and others qualifies as art.

To me, art is something that, were you to encounter, you'd likely have some sort of immediate engagement (as intended by the artist). You shouldn't need anyone to tell you that it is art, or why it's art. The strength of this experience correlates with the quality of the art, broadly speaking, and something that cannot generate such an experience at all, is not art. Of course, depending on one's state of mind, different people have different experiences, but if only a handful of people exposed to this item are claiming to have such an experience, I think it's healthy to be suspect of it's status as art (they may have just made up their own meaning or accepted what the artist said and filled in the blanks in their mind).
That's cool, and I'm glad you have that opinion. Work like this, along with numerous others, is generally considered "anti-art", whereby the piece raises questions about the concept of art itself (something this piece certainly has done). While there may be a greater, or hidden meaning to it, that is all an aspect of the piece, which as a whole exists outside of the standard boundaries of "normal art", in order to make a statement (a statement which in my opinion is now close to worthlessness due to the popularity of the work).

Indeed, it is the popularity of the anti art concepts that make them now the standard art movement, confirmed by their own successes, thus bringing the whole concept to a premature conclusion (in some people's opinions) by, perhaps ironically, causing anti art to be considered as an art movement in itself (confined to other generally by the movement that has grown around it, for example the Dadaists).

Arthur Danto claimed "the status of an artifact as work of art results from the ideas a culture applies to it, rather than its inherent physical or perceptible qualities. Cultural interpretation (an art theory of some kind) is therefore constitutive of an object's arthood"

Ripped off of wikipedia, but it's a pretty good quote, one that I'd back to the hilt.
 

Heart of Darkness

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Jul 1, 2009
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Generic Gamer said:
Heart of Darkness said:
Nah, you just basically called out a pretty large portion of the Escapist's userbase in a very quotable and pithy post. I am not disappoint.
Oh thanks! I was just a bit confused when, after years of one quote a day I've been quoted about twelve times between two threads.
Yeah, that happens. Never to me, but it happens.
 

lacktheknack

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Jan 19, 2009
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Digi7 said:
Did it take any skill to make? Fuck no.

Does it subversively mean anything through the visuals or form? Fuck no.

Is it impressive or unique? Again, fuck no.

It holds none of the three prerequisites for art. As an artist I'm ashamed of this shit.

IT IS NOT ART.
Thank you. I've been on the "THIS ISN'T ART" warpath ever since Tracey Emin's <link=http://www.saatchi-gallery.co.uk/artists/artpages/tracey_emin_my_bed.htm>"My Bed" Turner-award-winner.
 

the Dept of Science

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If you go into any classical art gallery, then you will see tonnes of paintings of ordinary scenes. Animals, flowers, families sitting at home, shop displays, high streets, landscapes. Things that you see everyday and don't think twice about.
One of the most powerful thing an artist can do is to remind you that you don't need to go to an art gallery to see something beautiful. Just open your eyes and look around you, whereever you may be.

One of my most profound musical revelations was when I was sitting on the bus, not really paying any attentoin to anything. Normally I would listen to my iPod and appreciate the melodies and rhythms coming from my headphones. This time I didn't have it, so I was just lost in thought. My mind wandered onto John Cage's most famous composition, 4'33", which is 4 minutes and 33 seconds of silence. It is meant to be "performed" in a concert hall, with music made up of whatever ambient sounds are produced by the audience/building. However, I realised that 4'33" was playing all the time, everywhere, being listened to by everyone. I started listening to sounds of the engine, the car horns, the people talking around me, and realised how it all came together in some way. In this way, Cage reminded me that sounds that you hear everyday can be beautiful. This is perhaps why some people have called 4'33" the end of music.
Did it take skill to compose 4'33"? No. Would I pay money to get 4'33" off iTunes? Don't be retarded. On the other hand, it gave me things that the Beatles, Bob Dylan or Mozart never could.

While there is room for the artist as the creator of beautiful worlds and scenes, the teller of stories or the rhetorician, I think there is also room for the artist as the man who sits on my shoulder, jumping up and down with excitement and shouting "Look at that! How beautiful is it? Or this? Or this? Or this? Or...".
 

Squeaky

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Really I cant believe how this is even considered a thing its a pile of logs, alot like how a women in the tate modern sold 2 receipts for a ridiculous sum of money. Perhaps i should pay people £15 and hit them with a canvas and sell that for £10,000... oh wait its been down how the fuck is any of that art ?

Art for one takes skill, have a meaning/purpose or envoke some emotion and require you to think about what your doing.
 

Diligent

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Digi7 said:
Did it take any skill to make? Fuck no.

Does it subversively mean anything through the visuals or form? Fuck no.

Is it impressive or unique? Again, fuck no.

It holds none of the three prerequisites for art. As an artist I'm ashamed of this shit.

IT IS NOT ART.
Just gonna quote you here for being way too right.
The way I see it there isn't even a discussion as to weather or not it's art. You want to know how I know it's not art? Because the only way it was able to make any sort of cultural impact was entirely accidental, because of an anecdotal story about a guy dismantling - no scratch that, dismantling would imply there is something to take apart - about a guy picking it up and putting it in his truck for firewood.

Are you going to tell me the original intention of the "piece" was for somebody to come along and do just that? It was most certainly to make $5000.

There is nothing to this pile. It is inert both physically and emotionally.
Perhaps if this (con) artist fashioned pieces of cut lumber into the shape of a tree or something, then maybe we could call it art, as that could at least be interpreted as a statement on the logging industry.

And don't tell me that generating this discussion automatically = art either, because it doesn't.

Art isn't art simply because you call it so, unless our culture has become so shallow and vapid that it is now the accepted definition of art. If that's the case it's shameful and we need to fix that.
 

harv3034

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Sep 23, 2010
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WHAT A LOAD OF SHIT
a pile of wood is not art
and if it was, WHY THE FUCK WAS IT IN THE WOODS??????
that's just asking for trouble

To quote the great Ben "Yahtzee" Crowshaw.

"OH CHRIST, I can't go on; this shit is bananas!"
 

SenseOfTumour

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the Dept of Science said:
If you go into any classical art gallery, then you will see tonnes of paintings of ordinary scenes. Animals, flowers, families sitting at home, shop displays, high streets, landscapes. Things that you see everyday and don't think twice about.
One of the most powerful thing an artist can do is to remind you that you don't need to go to an art gallery to see something beautiful. Just open your eyes and look around you, whereever you may be.

One of my most profound musical revelations was when I was sitting on the bus, not really paying any attentoin to anything. Normally I would listen to my iPod and appreciate the melodies and rhythms coming from my headphones. This time I didn't have it, so I was just lost in thought. My mind wandered onto John Cage's most famous composition, 4'33", which is 4 minutes and 33 seconds of silence. It is meant to be "performed" in a concert hall, with music made up of whatever ambient sounds are produced by the audience/building. However, I realised that 4'33" was playing all the time, everywhere, being listened to by everyone. I started listening to sounds of the engine, the car horns, the people talking around me, and realised how it all came together in some way. In this way, Cage reminded me that sounds that you hear everyday can be beautiful. This is perhaps why some people have called 4'33" the end of music.
Did it take skill to compose 4'33"? No. Would I pay money to get 4'33" off iTunes? Don't be retarded. On the other hand, it gave me things that the Beatles, Bob Dylan or Mozart never could.

While there is room for the artist as the creator of beautiful worlds and scenes, the teller of stories or the rhetorician, I think there is also room for the artist as the man who sits on my shoulder, jumping up and down with excitement and shouting "Look at that! How beautiful is it? Or this? Or this? Or this? Or...".
As a side note, thousands of people in the UK WILL be paying to buy John Cage's 4'33 this xmas, as it's been chosen as the rival to Simon Cowell's X Factor Xmas single (Think American Idol).

He got beaten from being number 1 last year with 'Killing in the name of' and I truly hope this year he'll take the message that we'd rather listen to nothing, silence, than have substandard twee karaoke sold to us as 'art'. What's more the cash goes to charity, instead of to a smug twat.
 

no oneder

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Here's my question to you: You = Human being?

Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's not art.
 

WolfEdge

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You're missing the point. Yes, these things have meaning because we deem them to, which is exactly why we have to be discriminatory in what we give meaning. If everything is equally meaningful, then nothing is meaningful.

Something having meaning at all doesn't make it art. A log in the forest has meaning in that we can recognize it as a log and what relationships such an object can have with the rest of the world. This "sculpture" has that degree and type of meaning. It does not necessarily have the particular relationship that would qualify it as art.

Art is supposed to convey a profoundly empathetic message from the artist on an existential level that teaches the audience something about themselves, and by extension, the human reality. Simply seeing a log, as you would anywhere else in the world, does not carry the potential for that kind of meaningful social/emotional engagement.

Subjectivism in one's interpretation of such a message is not the same as subjectivism in regard to whether that message actually exists. Everyone can attribute their own meanings to things, but only the artist can engage his audience with a particular experience, thus making his work "art".
Sorry, I can't figure out how to properly reply to posts... BUT!

I disagree.

Your view of art seems a bit romantic. "Art is supposed to convey a profoundly empathetic message from the artist on an existential level that teaches the audience something about themselves, and by extension, the human reality." If this is true, than something like the Mona Lisa (I hate using this damned painting as a means to prove anything, but it works) is not worthy of the title of "Art". Indeed, it was meant to be a simple portrait of a woman. There was no Special Meaning, nor was there was some Great Truth encoded within it. It was just a picture DaVinci painted to put food on his table. The fact that the haunting face of Mona Lisa drew a reaction out of him and others was merely incidental. And yet, it did.

You posit that the artist MUST have some greater message to convey in his or her art, and that this message MUST be prevalent and remain the driving force behind the work. But what of art that is meant to invoke a visceral reaction? What about art that draws out an emotion, instead of a profound psychological truth? What about art that tells a story for the sake of storytelling? Or art that exists simply because it can?

What about art that conveys no message at all, except the one given to it by its audience?

If you're truly concerned about prevalent messaging, then don't these wooden logs, stacked by the artist responsible, convey an interesting one? Already, a forum thread with over one hundred and fifty posts debates over the validity of the concept. I'd call that a success, then: it has challenged your perception of art. Was it successful? Perhaps, perhaps not. But then, does it have to be?
 

AugustFall

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Eugh, it's the same as music. Just because you don't like it or it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it's not music. Same goes for painting/sculpture.

And to those who say it takes "skill" to be an artist, get your head out of your ass. Someone getting angry and throwing paint at a canvas is creating art in making a physical representation of their anger. This is art and takes no skill.
Art is emotion and conveying ideas. You don't have to get it and you don't have to like it. Whoever bought it thought it was art and the sculptor deemed it art, it is art.
 

Sporky111

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Dec 17, 2008
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Eh, I think everyone was in the wrong:

1. If it's a sculpture and not to be messed with, at least put up a sign or something.

2. Don't steal anyone else's stuff. It doesn't matter if it's art or not, that guy would have gotten in shit if he got permission to take logs from one place and ended up taking them from a completely different property.

3. Who pays $5000 for some pretentious art-snob to pile logs on your property? Find someone who's actually going to put the right thought and effort into it. The artist said "it's supposed to work in harmony with the nature surrounding it". I don't think he even accomplished that; it's a pile of logs that not only is unappealing to look at, is really nothing more than a corpse in the middle of a living forest.
 

SlasherX

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Art is completely subjeective so you could say it is art, but you would still be wrong
 

Lunar Templar

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" nice art there boy, now bring some of it in for the fire" thats pretty much my opinion on it, its a stack of fire wood, not art -.-
 

kikon9

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Art is subjective, there is no definite line for what is and is not art. If somebody thinks it's art, then it's art.
 

Caligulust

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s0m3th1ng said:
My name is Fiction said:
"Hay my piece of burnt toast looks lie Jesus!"
*sell to pope for a million dollars*
Sorry, but I beat you.
This bruise on my ex's arm really does look like Jesus
I actually think it looks more like Stalin.

Ha, philistines dismissing that work of art for kindling.


The guy should have stuck to Lincoln logs.
 

Xanadu84

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First off, Art is basically anything we do that's not survival or fucking. Even if it is for those purposes, if it has elements beyond prolonging life to procreate, and procreation, then it is at least partially art. What we need to discuss is if its good art, perhaps we can call it high art, something that says something meaningful. If we go by this definition, then art is entirely subjective, and we can't really call it not high art, except to ourselves. We could criticize it by saying that the population at large doesn't get a sense of a deeper meaning, but enough people DO see a deeper meaning that you can't really criticize the piece for appealing to its fan base. Perhaps we could argue that the meaning is not consistent across all viewers, and that the sense of meaning the art has comes from the context and not the piece itself, but at this point, I think we are splitting hairs and calling technicalities so much we may as well just call it art, and just say that we personally hate it. If someone can wring some signal from the noise, well I guess the artist has done his job, hasn't he?
 

TWRule

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WolfEdge said:
You're missing the point. Yes, these things have meaning because we deem them to, which is exactly why we have to be discriminatory in what we give meaning. If everything is equally meaningful, then nothing is meaningful.

Something having meaning at all doesn't make it art. A log in the forest has meaning in that we can recognize it as a log and what relationships such an object can have with the rest of the world. This "sculpture" has that degree and type of meaning. It does not necessarily have the particular relationship that would qualify it as art.

Art is supposed to convey a profoundly empathetic message from the artist on an existential level that teaches the audience something about themselves, and by extension, the human reality. Simply seeing a log, as you would anywhere else in the world, does not carry the potential for that kind of meaningful social/emotional engagement.

Subjectivism in one's interpretation of such a message is not the same as subjectivism in regard to whether that message actually exists. Everyone can attribute their own meanings to things, but only the artist can engage his audience with a particular experience, thus making his work "art".
Sorry, I can't figure out how to properly reply to posts... BUT!

I disagree.

Your view of art seems a bit romantic. "Art is supposed to convey a profoundly empathetic message from the artist on an existential level that teaches the audience something about themselves, and by extension, the human reality." If this is true, than something like the Mona Lisa (I hate using this damned painting as a means to prove anything, but it works) is not worthy of the title of "Art". Indeed, it was meant to be a simple portrait of a woman. There was no Special Meaning, nor was there was some Great Truth encoded within it. It was just a picture DaVinci painted to put food on his table. The fact that the haunting face of Mona Lisa drew a reaction out of him and others was merely incidental. And yet, it did.

You posit that the artist MUST have some greater message to convey in his or her art, and that this message MUST be prevalent and remain the driving force behind the work. But what of art that is meant to invoke a visceral reaction? What about art that draws out an emotion, instead of a profound psychological truth? What about art that tells a story for the sake of storytelling? Or art that exists simply because it can?

What about art that conveys no message at all, except the one given to it by its audience?

If you're truly concerned about prevalent messaging, then don't these wooden logs, stacked by the artist responsible, convey an interesting one? Already, a forum thread with over one hundred and fifty posts debates over the validity of the concept. I'd call that a success, then: it has challenged your perception of art. Was it successful? Perhaps, perhaps not. But then, does it have to be?
Not everything that someone places in a museum is art by my definition - we are definitely in agreement there.

Call me a romantic if you'd like, but if something isn't triggering human empathy, then any emotion it might trigger is just that: an emotion (about whatever you please). Calling something art simply by virtue of it triggering an emotion is like saying "I love turkey sandwiches," and "I love my children" in same sense of the word "love." There is a profound difference that we need to distinguish here.

So could you call anything that vaguely falls under the category of human expression art? Sure you could - but that's not the sense of the word art I'm talking about, and I think the former is a rather reckless use of a word that is supposed to be reserved for special meaning.

There is no such thing as art that "conveys no message except one given by its audiences" by the definition I've shared - only by a much broader definition of the word.

Let me make a further distinction. I'm not talking about an intellectual message that is being conveyed here. The "message" is in an experience shared between the artist and the audience. The audience is welcome to intellectually interpret that experience differently than the artist or other audience members, but the itself experience is essentially similar.
As I've stated before, the fact that we are arguing about the definition of art is an intellectual conflict which has little to do with the wood sculpture itself.