Pirating Game Dev Tycoon Dooms Players to be Ruined By Piracy

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ResonanceSD

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Dec 14, 2009
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Bashfluff said:
[
This is why demonizing pirates comes off as stupid and insulting. They're victims of a greedy, vile industry.

Waah! Poor widdle piwates are victims of the industry! Where's their fucking security blanket when it's really needed?

Mate, if you can't afford a luxury entertainment item at the price the publisher is asking for, get your fucking mitts off it until you can.

games are a luxury product, not a right. This indie developer has released a DRM free game with a demo as well. There's absolutely no justification to pirate this game.

Oh and if you can't afford the $8 asking price? Sell your computer and focus on essentials rather than luxuries.
 

TechNoFear

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Bashfluff said:
Screw working for games. If you can get something for free without hurting anyone else, why wouldn't you?
Your assumption/assertion that piracy hurts no one is demonstrably incorrect.

In this example this game dev has to pay to provide server capacity and bandwidth for the over 90% of pirated copies (or the ~6% who have actually paid will have a poor game experience).

Bashfluff said:
This is why demonizing pirates comes off as stupid and insulting. They're victims of a greedy, vile industry, and what they're doing rarely negatively affects much of anyone.
What an over inflated sense of entitlement you have!
 

Bashfluff

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ResonanceSD said:
Bashfluff said:
[
This is why demonizing pirates comes off as stupid and insulting. They're victims of a greedy, vile industry.

Waah! Poor widdle piwates are victims of the industry! Where's their fucking security blanket when it's really needed?

Mate, if you can't afford a luxury entertainment item at the price the publisher is asking for, get your fucking mitts off it until you can.

games are a luxury product, not a right. This indie developer has released a DRM free game with a demo as well. There's absolutely no justification to pirate this game.

Oh and if you can't afford the $8 asking price? Sell your computer and focus on essentials rather than luxuries.
Waah, poor you. I don't think I will get my mitts off it.

Come back when you're ready to have a real discussion.


TechNoFear said:
Bashfluff said:
Screw working for games. If you can get something for free without hurting anyone else, why wouldn't you?
Your assumption/assertion that piracy hurts no one is demonstrably incorrect.

In this example this game dev has to pay to provide server capacity and bandwidth for the over 90% of pirated copies (or the ~6% who have actually paid will have a poor game experience).

Bashfluff said:
This is why demonizing pirates comes off as stupid and insulting. They're victims of a greedy, vile industry, and what they're doing rarely negatively affects much of anyone.
What an over inflated sense of entitlement you have!
Entitlement? I think someone needs to go back to tumblr. You pulled that statistic right out your arse.
 

ResonanceSD

Elite Member
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Dec 14, 2009
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Bashfluff said:
Entitlement? I think someone needs to go back to tumblr. You pulled that statistic right out your arse.

Actually he got it from the article. Have you actually read it?
 

Bashfluff

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ResonanceSD said:
Bashfluff said:
Entitlement? I think someone needs to go back to tumblr. You pulled that statistic right out your arse.

Actually he got it from the article. Have you actually read it?
My apologies. The developer is the idiot here.

If you upload a game to a website that isn't well known, and then you upload it to a list of highly trafficked torrent sites, what do you THINK will happen? This is not how this usually works.
 

ResonanceSD

Elite Member
Legacy
Dec 14, 2009
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Bashfluff said:
ResonanceSD said:
Bashfluff said:
Entitlement? I think someone needs to go back to tumblr. You pulled that statistic right out your arse.

Actually he got it from the article. Have you actually read it?
My apologies. The developer is the idiot here.

If you upload a game to a website that isn't well known, and then you upload it to a list of highly trafficked torrent sites, what do you THINK will happen? This is not how this usually works.

Yeah how dare he upload it to his own store to sell it. What a moron.

Oh, and the Windows store where I got it 3 months ago.
 

Infernal Lawyer

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Bashfluff said:
Infernal Lawyer said:
Personally, since one of the biggest complaints about DRM is that you can't just plug in and play, I've always liked the idea of a game that would let you get so far into the game without any sort of hassle before it finally put the DRM or one-time activation code thingy forward, with a friendly reminder at the startup and as you progress that you'll need to input the code before then. It's not as silly as it sounds: one of the good points of games such as R.A.G.E or whatever is that people who bought the game legitamately get activation codes that unlock, wait for it, BONUS CONTENT rather than the game itself! Basically, it would be a lot less hassle if the user is able to unlock the rest of the game at their leisure (up to a point), rather than having roadblocks thrown up at them at startup. (Yes I know DRM doesn't work, but if publishers are going to put them in anyway just because it gives them a false sense of security, it would still be nice if they met the paying customer halfway). Plus, this would shut up the pirates who claim that they only want to 'trial' a game before they pay for it.
That's a good idea for people who want to make an example for pirates, and for the consumer. But don't see any advantages for the publisher who wants to enforce the DRM. You've given pirates access to half of the game without them having to do any work. They're the only ones who will want to have access to the files of the game, and it won't be to someday buy a code.
Implying half. I could give the player two or three hours of grace in average gameplay (i.e. an roadblock in the game where you need to insert the key, rather than a digital timer) and that would hardly end up as most of a game with more than 8 hours worth of play. And frankly if a smart publisher knows that getting between a customer is a fucking bad idea, but still wants to put some sort of protection into his game, I don't see the problem in giving the customer the benefit of the doubt for the first few hours. At the very least, it'll stop a lot more people getting mad about not being able to just play the fucking game, and that is, in fact, a benefit to the publisher, thank you very much. Plus, as I said, the game would essentially be a demo until it was validated. That's what some pirates are using to legitimize piracy, right? Lack of demos and obnoxious DRM? I gave you what you wanted and took out what you didn't, why are you still complaining!?
Your only real argument is 'Cool story, but the publisher won't give'. Why not? And who says that a game NEEDS a greedy publisher to tell them how to sell their game?

People do not pirate to test games. Do you want to know why people pirate games? Because games are expensive. Publishers have been overcharging up the ass for games for years, and in this economy, people cannot afford to buy games. And if you offer poor people the means to get something that doesn't have a major negative impact on someone else, even if it takes a small amount of effort on their part, they'll take it.
Did you pay any attention to my previous statements, or the video suggested by bug_of_war? There are PLENTY of options for people with a $0 budget, let alone for those with more than $5 to spend every month. Don't tell me you have the right to pirate game AAA that costs too much when there are billions of other games that cost far less, if anything. My Steam library has lots of games, and not ONE of them had a price tag over $15, not even the AAA titles; most were bought at $5 or under, during a sale or in a bundle. It's called patience. You are not a dainty little princess who needs THAT specific AAA game the moment it comes out. Claiming that you are, in fact, entitled to have that AAA game just because you want it right on launch day is arrogant and childish. Literally, since you're mentioning Jim Sterling, you should remember only children are allowed to think that just because they want something they deserve to get it.

Even if it is illegal, it's not a law that's enforced at all, really. It's fairly safe to pirate games. I've known people who pirate games, and have for years. I'd be one of them if I thought my computer could handle most games.
So? Are you saying that a crime that is easy to perform shouldn't be a crime, or isn't as bad? No, I'm not going to discuss whether piracy is or is not a crime. If the law thinks something is a crime, the last justification for it should be "well, everyone does it, it's so easy".

Screw working for games. If you can get something for free without hurting anyone else, why wouldn't you? The alternative is being screwed over by Gamestop, saving up and trading in games so that one day you might afford a new title once every month or three. And all the while, you KNOW you're getting screwed by gamestop every time you trade in a title, but you can't find away around it because the publishers are so greedy that they ask so much of us.


The developer on this article is literally saying 'uh, guys? We're losing money here'. If 93.6% of the people who own my game pirated it, I have the right to think that I was hurt by piracy. I have the right to think 'Gee, I seriously doubt that a good portion of those pirates are buying my $7 game after they liked it." I am allowed to think maybe, just MAYBE, I would have made a little more money if it weren't for all the free loaders. And seriously? 'Being screwed over by Gamestop'? Get mad at publishers trying to kill the used game market, not the ones running it.

This is why demonizing pirates comes off as stupid and insulting. They're victims of a greedy, vile industry, and what they're doing rarely negatively affects much of anyone. I don't think I can look down on pirates too much in this kind of market, when customers are being treated like this by the industry. Perhaps every pirated game isn't a lost sale, but the culture of piracy is created by the failures of publishers to, as Jim Sterling says, "provide a better service," and/or treat their customers with respect and dignity, to be realistic with their prices and consumer practices. Perhaps they would be a sale if this culture did not exist...
What about the Humble Indie Bundles that costs all of one cent to purchase if you decide? Are you telling me all the people who pirated the bundles couldn't afford it? Or that they were pissed off by poor customer service and disrespect? Or that (I love this) they had some moral obligation to pirate the game because paying one cent would cost HIB money, as opposed to, I don't know, paying more than one fucking cent?! No. They had the chance to prove that pricing, lack of respect for the customer and DRM were the main incentives for piracy, and they blew it, because though the developers took years of hard work to make the game, and offered them to the public at any price and without obnoxious DRM, the pirates were happy to prove that the vast majority of them are scummy little toads who are so cheap they don't want to pay the utterly rock bottom minimum entry ticket of $0.01.

If you want the piracy problem to be minimized, you have to do the one thing that some seem hellbent that they will never do: accept it. If you do the best you can to deliver a reasonable price to the consumer and to treat them with respect, and on top of that, you say that you realize why piracy happens and tie it to poverty, it becomes embarrassing.

It becomes embarrassing like mooching off someone is embarrassing. Even if they have the money to afford it and even if you have to because you're poor, you feel ashamed that you've stooped so low that you cannot provide for yourself. And while that level of shame cannot be replicated with something like games, it can be imitated on some level when you treat your playerbase as such.

It makes people want to rise above piracy and buy the games, think. Or it would, if people would ever do it.
Again, tell that to the guys who run the HIB. I seriously doubt they buy the 'woe is me with my pockets of dirt' story.
Video games are a luxury. They are not a need. You can claim that entertainment as a whole is a need, and I would agree (at least to keep oneself sane), but video games? No. We have been just fine without them for centuries.

You do not 'need' video games. If you do, and you literally have no money, do the $0 game budget mentioned before. It's possible if you can get over the idea that because you want a specific game, you need it now.

With that, good day to you sir, and here endith the rant.
 

Bashfluff

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Jan 28, 2012
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Infernal Lawyer said:
Bashfluff said:
Infernal Lawyer said:
Personally, since one of the biggest complaints about DRM is that you can't just plug in and play, I've always liked the idea of a game that would let you get so far into the game without any sort of hassle before it finally put the DRM or one-time activation code thingy forward, with a friendly reminder at the startup and as you progress that you'll need to input the code before then. It's not as silly as it sounds: one of the good points of games such as R.A.G.E or whatever is that people who bought the game legitamately get activation codes that unlock, wait for it, BONUS CONTENT rather than the game itself! Basically, it would be a lot less hassle if the user is able to unlock the rest of the game at their leisure (up to a point), rather than having roadblocks thrown up at them at startup. (Yes I know DRM doesn't work, but if publishers are going to put them in anyway just because it gives them a false sense of security, it would still be nice if they met the paying customer halfway). Plus, this would shut up the pirates who claim that they only want to 'trial' a game before they pay for it.
That's a good idea for people who want to make an example for pirates, and for the consumer. But don't see any advantages for the publisher who wants to enforce the DRM. You've given pirates access to half of the game without them having to do any work. They're the only ones who will want to have access to the files of the game, and it won't be to someday buy a code.
Implying half. I could give the player two or three hours of grace in average gameplay (i.e. an roadblock in the game where you need to insert the key, rather than a digital timer) and that would hardly end up as most of a game with more than 8 hours worth of play. And frankly if a smart publisher knows that getting between a customer is a fucking bad idea, but still wants to put some sort of protection into his game, I don't see the problem in giving the customer the benefit of the doubt for the first few hours. At the very least, it'll stop a lot more people getting mad about not being able to just play the fucking game, and that is, in fact, a benefit to the publisher, thank you very much. Plus, as I said, the game would essentially be a demo until it was validated. That's what some pirates are using to legitimize piracy, right? Lack of demos and obnoxious DRM? I gave you what you wanted and took out what you didn't, why are you still complaining!?
Your only real argument is 'Cool story, but the publisher won't give'. Why not? And who says that a game NEEDS a greedy publisher to tell them how to sell their game?

People do not pirate to test games. Do you want to know why people pirate games? Because games are expensive. Publishers have been overcharging up the ass for games for years, and in this economy, people cannot afford to buy games. And if you offer poor people the means to get something that doesn't have a major negative impact on someone else, even if it takes a small amount of effort on their part, they'll take it.
Did you pay any attention to my previous statements, or the video suggested by bug_of_war? There are PLENTY of options for people with a $0 budget, let alone for those with more than $5 to spend every month. Don't tell me you have the right to pirate game AAA that costs too much when there are billions of other games that cost far less, if anything. My Steam library has lots of games, and not ONE of them had a price tag over $15, not even the AAA titles; most were bought at $5 or under, during a sale or in a bundle. It's called patience. You are not a dainty little princess who needs THAT specific AAA game the moment it comes out. Claiming that you are, in fact, entitled to have that AAA game just because you want it right on launch day is arrogant and childish. Literally, since you're mentioning Jim Sterling, you should remember only children are allowed to think that just because they want something they deserve to get it.

Even if it is illegal, it's not a law that's enforced at all, really. It's fairly safe to pirate games. I've known people who pirate games, and have for years. I'd be one of them if I thought my computer could handle most games.
So? Are you saying that a crime that is easy to perform shouldn't be a crime, or isn't as bad? No, I'm not going to discuss whether piracy is or is not a crime. If the law thinks something is a crime, the last justification for it should be "well, everyone does it, it's so easy".

Screw working for games. If you can get something for free without hurting anyone else, why wouldn't you? The alternative is being screwed over by Gamestop, saving up and trading in games so that one day you might afford a new title once every month or three. And all the while, you KNOW you're getting screwed by gamestop every time you trade in a title, but you can't find away around it because the publishers are so greedy that they ask so much of us.


The developer on this article is literally saying 'uh, guys? We're losing money here'. If 93.6% of the people who own my game pirated it, I have the right to think that I was hurt by piracy. I have the right to think 'Gee, I seriously doubt that a good portion of those pirates are buying my $7 game after they liked it." I am allowed to think maybe, just MAYBE, I would have made a little more money if it weren't for all the free loaders. And seriously? 'Being screwed over by Gamestop'? Get mad at publishers trying to kill the used game market, not the ones running it.

This is why demonizing pirates comes off as stupid and insulting. They're victims of a greedy, vile industry, and what they're doing rarely negatively affects much of anyone. I don't think I can look down on pirates too much in this kind of market, when customers are being treated like this by the industry. Perhaps every pirated game isn't a lost sale, but the culture of piracy is created by the failures of publishers to, as Jim Sterling says, "provide a better service," and/or treat their customers with respect and dignity, to be realistic with their prices and consumer practices. Perhaps they would be a sale if this culture did not exist...
What about the Humble Indie Bundles that costs all of one cent to purchase if you decide? Are you telling me all the people who pirated the bundles couldn't afford it? Or that they were pissed off by poor customer service and disrespect? Or that (I love this) they had some moral obligation to pirate the game because paying one cent would cost HIB money, as opposed to, I don't know, paying more than one fucking cent?! No. They had the chance to prove that pricing, lack of respect for the customer and DRM were the main incentives for piracy, and they blew it, because though the developers took years of hard work to make the game, and offered them to the public at any price and without obnoxious DRM, the pirates were happy to prove that the vast majority of them are scummy little toads who are so cheap they don't want to pay the utterly rock bottom minimum entry ticket of $0.01.

If you want the piracy problem to be minimized, you have to do the one thing that some seem hellbent that they will never do: accept it. If you do the best you can to deliver a reasonable price to the consumer and to treat them with respect, and on top of that, you say that you realize why piracy happens and tie it to poverty, it becomes embarrassing.

It becomes embarrassing like mooching off someone is embarrassing. Even if they have the money to afford it and even if you have to because you're poor, you feel ashamed that you've stooped so low that you cannot provide for yourself. And while that level of shame cannot be replicated with something like games, it can be imitated on some level when you treat your playerbase as such.

It makes people want to rise above piracy and buy the games, think. Or it would, if people would ever do it.
Again, tell that to the guys who run the HIB. I seriously doubt they buy the 'woe is me with my pockets of dirt' story.
Video games are a luxury. They are not a need. You can claim that entertainment as a whole is a need, and I would agree (at least to keep oneself sane), but video games? No. We have been just fine without them for centuries.

You do not 'need' video games. If you do, and you literally have no money, do the $0 game budget mentioned before. It's possible if you can get over the idea that because you want a specific game, you need it now.

With that, good day to you sir, and here endith the rant.
That was completely useless. Most of that rant didn't applied to me, implied and assumed bucketloads about me and my positions, and wasn't even logically sound. Next time, try arguing with me and not a strawman.

With that, good day to you sir, and here endith the rant.

Aaaah, and since you tried to use the power of Jim against me, look at his videos on copyright.
 

Jmp_man

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ResonanceSD said:
Bashfluff said:
ResonanceSD said:
Bashfluff said:
Entitlement? I think someone needs to go back to tumblr. You pulled that statistic right out your arse.

Actually he got it from the article. Have you actually read it?
My apologies. The developer is the idiot here.

If you upload a game to a website that isn't well known, and then you upload it to a list of highly trafficked torrent sites, what do you THINK will happen? This is not how this usually works.

Yeah how dare he upload it to his own store to sell it. What a moron.

Oh, and the Windows store where I got it 3 months ago.
Isn't that the problem then? Aren't you assuming that if you know it exists then everyone knows that it exists? What if the torrent site that was posted was more popular than the store page because they didn't advertise it? What if the torrent (that was put up by the developers by the way) offered a better "demo" experience then the official demo itself? Could it possibly be that people feel justified in pirating a program of the web if the creator puts it up themselves? Perhaps this could have skewed the data a bit and pushed people who wouldn't normally pirate to do so instead?
 

Infernal Lawyer

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Jan 28, 2013
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Bashfluff said:
Infernal Lawyer said:
Bashfluff said:
Infernal Lawyer said:
So much snip
That was completely useless. Most of that rant didn't applied to me, implied and assumed bucketloads about me and my positions, and wasn't even logically sound. Next time, try arguing with me and not a strawman.

With that, good day to you sir, and here endith the rant.

Aaaah, and since you tried to use the power of Jim against me, look at his videos on copyright.
That was completely useless (See, I can parrot people too!). You didn't even TRY to refute anything I said (and I'll be so arrogant to claim that you can't until further notice), and excuse me for not thinking that it didn't apply to you when you said 'screw working for games'. I took every point you used, every justification or reason for piracy you brought up and refuted them, and you think what i say is mute because 'it implies and assumes bucketloads of you'? Because logic guys, right?
I'll admit that I'm wrong when you prove it to me, not because you back out of this discussion with a smug grin. Come back when you want to have a discussion and when you learn how to edit a post properly (double posting 3-page long comments because you want to add one whole line is frowned upon here). At the very least I gave your opinion enough respect to refute it.

P.S. I already mentioned that there's no excuse for pirating an indie game where the developer gets (and needs) all of the profits as opposed to some scummy publisher. I even said that there's no shame in pirating ancient games that are no longer for sale anywhere. Excuses excuses, one two three.
 

TechNoFear

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I wonder how long it will be before some disgruntled software engineer starts seeding the torrent sites with something like a 'killer poke' or stuxnet/flame virus (instead of this minor inconvenience).
 

TTYTYTTYYTTYTTTY

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Feb 26, 2011
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Akalabeth said:
Dude,
I got an meagre allowance for doing chores around the house. I saved up this allowance to both rent and purchase Sega Master System games. Only bought one game every one or two months, but I worked and saved to do it.

I also shared a paper route and flyer route with my brother. I saved up my money for more than a year, and in grade 7 or 8 I purchased a 486 computer for about 1400 dollars which at the time, was a shitload of money. Then I saved up more money to buy games for said computer.

Being a teenager is no excuse. There are ways to make money and there are ways to pay for your games if you actually MAKE AN EFFORT.
You sound just like those older generations who might go "I walked up the hill both ways, in a snowstorm to get to school" and that that younger generation should just be happy they get any education at all. This attitude does not help as it refuses to deal with any legitimate complaint or point the younger generation brought up and merely slanders all who didn't do as the older generation are "lazy and entitled".
 

karamazovnew

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I wish more games would do this. Some pirate sites list new games on release day, or even sooner. Talk about efficiency. A DRM like this which glitches the game half-way still lets you play enough to figure out how much you like the game. And if save games would work on the purchased version too, then you wouldn't loose your progress either. Plus, it's a great way to wink at the player and say "we know you've stole this...".

As for the game, I think that every pirate should play this (cracked or not). I've only played it for 2 days and I can't describe the feeling of waiting for those awful game reviews and then trying to survive on the first week sales. However the game isn't perfect. I wish it had a lot more info about what you're doing wrong and what you're doing right. I sometimes pump tons of money and effort in some games only to have them receive awful reviews and bankrupting me (not from pirates, lol). Also, the game never limits your engine to the console. Advanced 3d graphics and steering wheel support for the Gameboy? WTF?
 

BernardoOne

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karamazovnew said:
I wish more games would do this. Some pirate sites list new games on release day, or even sooner. Talk about efficiency. A DRM like this which glitches the game half-way still lets you play enough to figure out how much you like the game. And if save games would work on the purchased version too, then you wouldn't loose your progress either. Plus, it's a great way to wink at the player and say "we know you've stole this...".

As for the game, I think that every pirate should play this (cracked or not). I've only played it for 2 days and I can't describe the feeling of waiting for those awful game reviews and then trying to survive on the first week sales. However the game isn't perfect. I wish it had a lot more info about what you're doing wrong and what you're doing right. I sometimes pump tons of money and effort in some games only to have them receive awful reviews and bankrupting me (not from pirates, lol). Also, the game never limits your engine to the console. Advanced 3d graphics and steering wheel support for the Gameboy? WTF?
There is no DRM in this. They simply put a edited version of the game for download.

Also, this game is a shameless ripoff off Game Dev Story.
 

BernardoOne

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ResonanceSD said:
Cecilo said:
So I do argue that Piracy numbers are not lost sale numbers, they are numbers that you were never going to get regardless of what you do.
So? That doesn't make it any more legal. It's still a crime.
Well, that really depends on where you live.
 

maninahat

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Entitled said:
maninahat said:
No, that's not just it.

Even if you assume that the sales could have been doubled by eliminating piracy, what would happen next?

Say, this one has 600 customes and 9400 other players.
By killing piracy, it would have 1200 sales, and no more players.

A playerbase of 1200, versus a playerbase of 10.000. Which one of them has more chances for future viral growth? Even if you assume that for the second, out of the virally gained new players 94% continue to be pirates, it's not improbable, that a vew months later, the 600 outgrows the 1200, that has no such synergic help.
Going by this example, to make a profit from the pirates, the devs need to obtain 20,000 players to beat the 1200 paying customers. One sounds like an easier target than the other, especially for something like a meagre indie game. Many games only have niche appeal, and don't expect to become viral in the first place. They certainly don't want to depend on it as a sales technique.

There is plenty of anecdotal example of that pattern. For example, just look at how in the MMO market everything other than WoW constantly failed to catch on, as their unavoidable subscription turned their playerbases into little insular communities, while the current F2P market has no such problem, because the 90% freeloaders are allowed in.
The F2P model derives money from those freeloaders in a different way than the pattern you described. Once they are personally invested in the game, people are far more willing to pay up when cash is required to progress beyond a certain point. This is especially the case when the free, vanilla game becomes increasingly harder and more frustrating to progress. This doesn't happen with a normal pirated game, because there usually isn't a pay wall or a pay to win system, and once you've downloaded the game, you can have a full experience. Technically, you could argue that Dev Tycoon use a F2P model: they provided a free torrent, but created a barrier within the game, encouraging the player to pay for the full version of the game because they can't get the full experience.

For a non-gaming example, the classic story is how Friendship is Magic got viral thanks to how easily it could be uploaded to youtube, and years later it resulted in lots of iTunes episode sales. Not even necessarily from the same 4chan users who first watched the youtube videos, but from the ginormous fandom that kept snowballing on and on after them, thanks to the free access and the magic of sharing. :p
That does prove your point to an extent. The problem with FiM, and other tv shows (like Game of Thrones) is that they were only of limited availability, and being able to watch them depended on whether you were willing to pay out for hefty network packages, and whether you lived in the right country. Had potential audiences been provided with better access to the shows in the first place, they might not have necessarily resorted to youtube uploads. The show could have easily still gone viral if that were the case - plenty of non-pirated stuff goes viral all the time (especially books).

Availability should generally prove less of a problem with games, which by their nature, often rely on web distribution in the first place. The "whole piracy is a service problem" reflects the importance of decent, wide-spread, easy distribution.