Playing as a female character usually annoys me.

[The_Vigilant]

Yeah, you ended up sounding sexist.

I think the last 500 years where life has become successively less about trying to secure your next meal have also proved that men and women are a lot less different than people once thought. Physically fit is physically fit. Muscle is muscle. Resolve and bravery are resolve and bravery. It doesn't particularly matter whether you can grow lots of facial hair or if you contain a Von Neumann machine.

Yes, muscle is muscle. Have you noticed how much more of it men have? Funny how hormones work, isn't it? The logical conclusion to what you premising is that our female action heroes ought to have an equal amount of muscle to the (believable) male leads they replace, which is what several other people have pointed out. AND DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW HARD IT IS FOR WOMEN TO BUILD THAT KIND OF MUSCLE? Hello, steroids.

I'm sorry but with this paragraph you have failed before you started. You're suggesting that all women are slower and weaker than all other men, aren't you? That is really sexist. Also you're saying all women are slower and weaker than you which does make you sound like a douche. I'm not insulting you, I'm just telling you what kind of person you make yourself sound like by writing this.

You don't think that they can or maybe the can't because they're never given a chance? I mean come on, would you really be surprised that in the army nowadays women are expected to pull they same weight as men? Not only are the successful ones able to but the truly excellent ones go above and beyond.

No, I'm talking about averages. The perfectly average theoretical male will be dramatically stronger and faster than the perfectly average theoretical female. Sorry, that's the way it is. And I can't help how I sound, the truth is the truth.

Let me illustrate with a story. I suck at basketball. I love it, but I suck at it. I was good friends with the captain of our girl's basketball team in high school (they were quite good, by the way). I challenged her to a game of one-on-one in our senior year and she refused. I asked why and she said "because you're a guy and that's hardly fair." She's right, of course, I would have won. Despite her being taller, stronger, and faster than most girls and certainly better at basketball than me, she still would have lost.

And as for you army reference, I say PFFT! I did the application process for West Point, and you know what? The physical test expectations are dramatically higher for men than women. A guy who performs sightly under male averages will be frowned upon by the decision committee while a woman who performs at EXACTLY the same level would be applauded.

 

[The_Vigilant]

self snip

Err, actually he is saying they can't be bad-asses, at least not the way male protagonists are.

I'm sure he wouldn't mind the sight of a woman in full plate if she looked more like Brienne of Tarth and less like Keira Knightley. At least that's what I got from his post.

Is that right OP? I feel weird, like I'm talking about someone when they're in the same room.

Definitely. One of my favorite female action heroes is Linda Hamilton from Terminator 2. She's not big enough to wield a warhammer, but they never ask her to which makes her character believable. However, she is CLEARLY fit in a way most of these female leads never are.

And I'm not as much of an idiot as people probably think from reading the post. I know that there are women in this world who are stronger than me. I haven't met them, but I know they exist. I guarantee you those women don't look like Kate Beckinsale. It would certainly help with my problem if a woman who by claim is extremely strong and fast LOOKS that strong and fast.

 

[NeutralDrow]

If you compare Olympic weightlifting scores, pound for pound women are about 2/3 as strong as men. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

In that case, the OP has a very understated sense of drama.

 

[Kimarous]

Ignoring everything else the OP has said, I want to address his comment about the "I'd rather look at a girl's ass" excuse. I would just like to point out that the grand majority of the time I, and probably other gamers, play as a female is less "I want to oogle a hot chick" and a lot more "I don't want to play such a hideous-looking male."

 

[Allspice]

I know all kinds of hard women. My family's full of them: soldiers, construction workers, marathon runners, trainers, etc. I'm stronger and faster than every one of them. That's not because I'm a superhuman, it's because I'm a man and they're women.

Give it a try and see if you are. You might be surprised. Just because you're a man doesn't make you automatically stronger and faster than every woman alive.

You and I both know there's no way a female is going to be humanity's first SPECTRE when women can't even make the Navy SEALs,

I'd argue that within the world of the game it isn't out of the ordinary. There are a number of female soldiers you see walking around. Not to mention the only solider you have on your team in the first one is Ashley.

Though I have to wonder what you're doing trying to play as a female in a game where you can choose your gender if you know you won't like it. Just stick to playing a man.

 

[Hal10k]

A major factor you seem to be forgetting is skill. I don't care what their respective muscle-mass is, if a 200 pound male with basic combat experience goes up against a 100 pound female tenth degree black belt, the male is probably going to go down faster then you can say "suffrage".

 

[Wado Rhyu]

although i do not share your point that men are stronger and faster then any women can become i do share your point on the fact that female charaters should get a more female like dialog. a threat made by a men and then copie paste to a women doesn't work. and as alot of men have found out. womens are better at getting what the want then men ever can be.

so it would be nice if the next mass effect will have its own naritive for women.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

Ever met a good female kickboxer?

Yeah, they'd kind of kick your arse, OP.

Being good at combat isn't all about physical strength, it's about technique, often using your opponent's momentum against them.

 

[nukethetuna]

OP's not being sexist. It's really just a matter of opinion if something like a dainty fashion model swinging around the same metal and attitude as a macho man breaks your immersion in a game. Some people like there to be a certain amount of realism, I guess.

Even if females are playable interchangably to male characters, the overstated violence, and often Rambo-ish, "take no prisoners", "might is right" storylines and attitudes that most video games lend themselves to are traditionally seen as male-inclined in our society. It's no real surprise that when games attempt to take a male role and place a female in it that some people might find it jarring. It's also not a stretch to say that game companies do design everything about most games with a male audience in mind.

As for me, in most of these cases, I'm already playing a fantasy game with a pretty heavy amount of unrealistic things. Fitting a girl into a male role and watching her intimidate or defy biology and physics isn't a big deal when I'm hurling fireballs at a bipedal octopus or something. But again, to each his own.

 

[Hal10k]

A major factor you seem to be forgetting is skill. I don't care what their respective muscle-mass is, if a 200 pound male with basic combat experience goes up against a 100 pound female tenth degree black belt, the male is probably going to go down faster then you can say "suffrage".

But if a male with a tenth degree black belt goes against a female with a tenth degree black belt, the female would go down before you could say "gender equality'.

Lets face it, there's a reason they separate sport tournaments for genders. It isn't sexism, it's fact that males are physically superior. Even trying to prance around that fact is just naive.

My point was that most video games have an unequal level of skill between the protagonist, either male or female, and enemies. If somebody is more well trained, then of course they would be able to beat supposedly psychically superior opponents. It's the same reason that male protagonists win most of their fights- they're generally the most skilled combatant.

 

[OmniscientOstrich]

This just adds to the jarring discord that occurs when an action protagonist is female, usually in the form of her dialogue, which, even if the words are right, is just too high pitched to carry the weight of threat or conviction.

-_- I'm sorry, but did you really just imply that women can't be threatening? I mean how is that you conjure up that kind of sentence and not think that it sounds sexist? I'd cite your example of Mass Effect to rebuke this. The voice actor for FemShep has much more seething and acerbic tones to her voice during the Renegade lines, whereas the male VA just comes off as deadpan unless he's yelling at something and even then he really isn't that intimidating when compared with FemShep.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Well, realistically Shep (of either gender) would take a stray bullet a couple of missions in, spend a couple months in the hospital and physical therapy, receive an honorable discharge and some medals, and then have trouble re-adjusting to civilian life.

But that wouldn't be an action game. Once we accept that an individual can basically solo hundreds of people/aliens/robots/space-cthulhus without any lasting physical or mental harm, it basically doesn't matter what set of chromosomes that individual has, because feats like that are equally impossible for men, women, or hermaphrodites.

 

[The_Vigilant]

This just adds to the jarring discord that occurs when an action protagonist is female, usually in the form of her dialogue, which, even if the words are right, is just too high pitched to carry the weight of threat or conviction.

-_- I'm sorry, but did you really just imply that women can't be threatening? I mean how is that you conjure up that kind of sentence and not think that it sounds sexist? I'd cite your example of Mass Effect to rebuke this. The voice actor for FemShep has much more seething and acerbic tones to her voice during the Renegade lines, whereas the male VA just comes off as deadpan unless he's yelling at something and even then he really isn't that intimidating when compared with FemShep.

Yes, that is basically what I'm implying. SteelStallion hit the nail on the head in the post before yours. The problem is that these games are built around a male archetype. The dialogue, especially Renegade/Dark Side/Evil options are derived from macho posturing. There's a reason that in many games your strength score affects your Intimidate odds. A powerfully built man delivering a threat is going to be far scarier than a slim woman echoing the same line an octave higher. It's unnatural and, at times, even laughable to witness.

It's why when I was small and I did something very naughty my mother would usually just say, "wait until your father gets home." She lost her power to really scare me when I turned about six or seven (and she knew it), but he could still scare me shitless.

 

[NeutralDrow]

A major factor you seem to be forgetting is skill. I don't care what their respective muscle-mass is, if a 200 pound male with basic combat experience goes up against a 100 pound female tenth degree black belt, the male is probably going to go down faster then you can say "suffrage".

But if a male with a tenth degree black belt goes against a female with a tenth degree black belt, the female would go down before you could say "gender equality'.

Lets face it, there's a reason they separate sport tournaments for genders. It isn't sexism, it's fact that males are physically superior. Even trying to prance around that fact is just naive.

My point was that most video games have an unequal level of skill between the protagonist, either male or female, and enemies. If somebody is more well trained, then of course they would be able to beat supposedly psychically superior opponents. It's the same reason that male protagonists win most of their fights- they're generally the most skilled combatant.

But the OP's point is that these limitations for a game where you can play either gender are usually built around a male archetype. If the male main character is just barely able to lift a larger boulder, for exmaple, the female wouldn't even come close.

Why? You're already accepting that the protagonist of a game is exceptional to begin with. If the protagonist is lifting a boulder, why exactly is it such a huge leap to assume that the protagonist is simply a man or woman who is capable of lifting that boulder?

The OP's lack of suspension of disbelief is based on averages, when you're not supposed to be average anyway.

Another thing to note is that, in these games, the male is usually buff pent as hell.

The females are wearing a tanktop and have a nice tan going.

Aesthetic choices on the part of designers, and if that were the only thing the OP was complaining about, this whole argument would make a lot more sense (especially all the BS about "male archetypes" being the only ones capable of intimidation). Frankly, the "buff as all hell" thing isn't necessarily accurate, either. The strongest people are typically large, but not necessarily ripped.

 

[Vakz]

I agree that there is an issue, but some of your points are perhaps.. a bit exaggerated. It is true that women are naturally smaller and weaker than men (anyone wishing to flame this, go watch sports-results. Men always score some 10-15% better than women), I think you downplay the factor of simple training. A woman with full combat training, who has worked out and exercised her whole life to be a military leader, would still be pretty bad ass.

The problem I have with games is that they make the male characters into these huge muscular guys (which is pretty much the image one would have of a "supersoldier"), they make the female characters into these thin, pretty characters. They just don't look like they've gone through intense training. I DO NOT PROPOSE that female characters should be removed from playing roles of military leaders in games, but I DO propose that they are modeled to look as they should; as muscular as a "supersoldier" would be expected to. Really, I find the deep issue here being that muscular men are considered sexy, while muscular women are not. And no, I'm not talking about the freaky steroid-pumping guys and and women, that's just freaky. Talking a normal soldier who has exercised a lot. People (read: developers who think sex is all that will sell their game) want the females to look like the thin blonds with D-cup, because it looks hot. They're not really bothered by the fact that a soldier would never look that way, because she'd get her ass kicked in the first fight she entered. Maybe they should see what happens if they throw in a character who is male, squadleader, weighs 55 kilos and have a huge dick. Doubt he'd be very good in a fight either, but hey, at least he follows the same format as the females.