Pokemon Is Mature: You Just Have To Look For It.

[somonels]

This not surprising from Pokemon, as its written that way. Stuff like that can make it more interesting. Old folk tales regularly feature certain themes that some might find harder to take these days. Maybe Pokemon builds on that.

Yeah, Pokemon are like chicken and can be eaten. Why let good meat go to waste, right? In some of the Pokemon manga they are killed in fights with resutls you'll never see in the tv series. While not my wheelhouse, it makes Pokemon cool despite its contrived collecting spiel.

Yes, many pokemon were inspired by japanese folk tales.
http://gamecult.umwblogs.org/2013/02/18/yokai-oni-and-pokemon-oh-my/
http://gamecult.umwblogs.org/2013/04/01/yokai-oni-and-pokemon-oh-my-pt-2/

Something really sad, and yet very interesting.

This is really sad, and yet so very interesting.

Would you care if I showed you a link of the supposed technological and societal advancements of Pokemon?
All speculation of course, but very interesting none the less.

My knee-jerk reaction was to decline but a hyperlink is unlikely to expire in the near future so feel free to.

 

[Syzygy23]

Personally I'd prefer a more story-based Pokemon game with a plot. It doesn't stop Zelfa from being successful with the kiddies, so it shouldn't stop Pokemon.

The problem with Pokemon for me isn't that it's not mature, it's that the games lack characterisation, plot, and the normal formula of collect-badges-defeat-elite4 is getting old for me.

Zelda does attract kids.
However they attracted a much older child demographic.

Pokemon in my opinion literally attracted children of the 5-8 range.
They have been in trouble multiple times for some of the stupidest bullshit I've ever heard.

Arceus for instance was supposed to be known as the "God" Pokemon, but religious people literally had a heart attack and they promptly changed it to Alpha Pokemon.
If Pokemon were to pull a Majora's Mask, I can't garuntee that most people would be fine with it.
Perhaps people like us would be alright with it, but their main sales demographic- kids with parents would be adverse to buying the game.
Which is why they hide the more darker themes of the game within dex entries, in-game books, and scenarios that require a more mature mind to actually piece together.

Oh, religious people LITERALLY had heart attacks? Then why are the nintendo execs still free men? Putting out a product that kills people is a criminal offense!

Figuratively speaking, of course.

Also, Pokemon is a lot of things, mature it ain't. I remember playing the original Blue and Red versions of the game, as a 9 year old child, and mentally inserting an imagined story where the Elite 4 were facist military autocrats and the Gym leaders were their brutal enforcers because there was NOTHING there in terms of story.

Seriously, if the "story" in these games is so bare and inoffensive that even an EIGHT year old (EIGHT YEARS OLD) is thinking of a more mature and involving story, then you aren't paying your writing staff NEARLY enough.

 

[Caiphus]

So yeah. I'm guessing that they don't have any bits about eating Pokemon in the show?

Actually, in the original anime, when Ash's Krabby was sent to Professor Oak due to being his seventh pokemon, he was worried Oak might eat him, what with crab being delicious, and all.

That's true! I forgot about that episode. I might have cried and turned the TV off if they showed the Krabby being eaten though.

Some of the stuff in this thread has definitely eaten into my childhood, speaking of eating. Especially the Cubone stuff. Sad now.

 

[idarkphoenixi]

Cubone always wear the skulls of their deceased mothers and cry.

As if that wasn't gruesome enough it leaves us with two reasons why this happens, either:

A) All Marowak die during the act of childbirth and the baby eventually harvests the skull from it's corpse.
B) All baby cubone kill their mothers and THEN harvest the skulls.

 

[immortalfrieza]

Personally I'd prefer a more story-based Pokemon game with a plot. It doesn't stop Zelfa from being successful with the kiddies, so it shouldn't stop Pokemon.

The problem with Pokemon for me isn't that it's not mature, it's that the games lack characterisation, plot, and the normal formula of collect-badges-defeat-elite4 is getting old for me.

This would sum up my main problem with Pokémon as well. Not only what little plot and characterization Pokémon has is terrible, they just keep using the same plot over and over and over... The reason why Colosseum and XD are my favorite Pokémon games is because they deviate from this formula pretty significantly. The other issue I have is that the enemy A.I. is dumber than a sack of bricks, requiring nothing more than a little leveling to easily get around, regardless of what type your Pokémon and theirs are. Both have been the case the ENTIRE series, despite more than enough opportunity to fix them. We all know why of course, why bother to do so when you're targeting it at young kids who probably won't figure out that they're playing the same game over and over again until they grow up, and by then there will be plenty more young kids for Gamefreak to target instead.

OT: I'd agree that Pokémon has mature themes present, but I'd argue that it doesn't matter. ALL of fiction will have mature themes there if look into it deep enough, but that's the reason those mature themes are insignificant. If you have to dig down in order to find mature themes, then they aren't really "themes" but incidental occurrences that don't matter to the fiction as a whole.

 

[AdamG3691]

I'm impressed that anyone can see pokemon as not mature these days

generations 1 and 2 are about 10 year olds fighting the mafia

3 is about fighting eco-terrorists trying to wake giant monsters to flood the world and dry up the seas

4 is about terrorists who try and undo reality itself and make a universe where nobody has a soul (and in platinum, the climax of the thing involves you being dragged to the pokemon equivalent of hell by the pokemon equivalent of the devil)

5 is... relatively tame TBH, the enemy is pretty much PETA, except the leader is possibly the most evil person in the whole series, and in 5 ver2 he nearly kills everyone in NE unova.

that's not to mention some of the pokemon themselves, kyuurem is stated to eat people, and any of the litwick line are stated to devour/burn human souls for fuel


and then there's the spinoffs, the first mystery dungeon has a bunch of pokemon try and murder you, the second has another group of pokemon try and rip you to shreds and in the post game, one tries to convince you to commit suicide, and in the most recent game, the final boss is trying to destroy the world by making everyone fall into absolute despair

the only kiddy thing about the pokemon games have been the bright colours, which to me makes it even more disturbing


(don't forget the anime, the saffron city parts were TERRIFYING as a kid, creepy child who appears from nowhere and traps 2/3 of the main characters souls in dolls, whilst the last main character tries to find her weakness and DIES TRYING, hell, even episode 2 was pretty disturbing, ash nearly gets killed by a bunch of spearow)

 

[Dragonbums]

This not surprising from Pokemon, as its written that way. Stuff like that can make it more interesting. Old folk tales regularly feature certain themes that some might find harder to take these days. Maybe Pokemon builds on that.

Yeah, Pokemon are like chicken and can be eaten. Why let good meat go to waste, right? In some of the Pokemon manga they are killed in fights with resutls you'll never see in the tv series. While not my wheelhouse, it makes Pokemon cool despite its contrived collecting spiel.

Yes, many pokemon were inspired by japanese folk tales.
http://gamecult.umwblogs.org/2013/02/18/yokai-oni-and-pokemon-oh-my/
http://gamecult.umwblogs.org/2013/04/01/yokai-oni-and-pokemon-oh-my-pt-2/

Something really sad, and yet very interesting.

This is really sad, and yet so very interesting.

Would you care if I showed you a link of the supposed technological and societal advancements of Pokemon?
All speculation of course, but very interesting none the less.

My knee-jerk reaction was to decline but a hyperlink is unlikely to expire in the near future so feel free to.

The person's tumblr in question is password locked.
So I did a copy/paste.

Sorry about the length. I don't know how to undercut long text yet.

the pokemon world?s economy is eccentric, but there are clear signs towards the existence of state power: ie, the fact that there are police. imo, all signs point to a utopian post-capitalist society that has only operated under its current mode for perhaps two generations. this reorganization of society was not precipitated by any revolution or even conscious political action, but rather the natural result of reforming the pokemon leagues and the systematic cataloging of pokemon and their capabilities thanks to professor oak?s pokedex.

throughout pokemon world?s history, pokemon have been used by humans to achieve things that they couldn?t do personally. indeed, as per Klink, Voltorb, Trubbish et al, new pokemon species will develop sympathetically to human society. however, forming a Bond between human and pokemon was significantly more difficult and required either the long-term taming of a pokemon raised from its juvenile evolutions or (more recently, within the last 700 years) the use of apricorn pokeballs, which were difficult to obtain due to the difficulty of cultivating apricorn trees. add to this the fact that pokemon at higher evolutionary tiers are less disposed to obey humans unless they?ve somehow proved their worth, and the vast majority of human owned pokemon would be placid, domesticated types and otherwise low power species. more powerful species and legendaries would only attach themselves to humans in dominant positions: kings, warlords, and so forth, and these pokemon would be bloody engines of war (see: pokemon conquest).

this feudal society evolved into a capitalist one thanks to the inception of the leagues. initially little more than the equivalent of a village cock-fighting ring. particularly adept trainers would find themselves able to make a living betting on the results of pokemon battles however, and would travel from village to village, challenging the best the locals could muster. eventually, they would make enough to retire, and many founded pokemon ?gyms?, schools and dojos where people could pay to learn from them and perhaps even challenge them for status. the influence and wealth and gym leaders became such that they de facto controlled their town. this obviously drew the ire of the nobility, who attempted to crack down, but the gyms formed together into leagues and mounted a successful defense. the nobles were forced to play ball with the league, or else were replaced by them.

the resultant society was perhaps more ?fair?, it operated under a meritocracy of a sort. anyone who was able to tame or catch a decent selection of pokemon, and challenge the league to make themselves known, could achieve high status and wealth. becoming league champion is, in its way, just as arbitrary an achievement as winning a war: enough to satisfy powerful pokemon?s desire for a competent master. a broader array of pokemon entered ?common? use and could be directly leveraged to fulfil the requirements of a larger, more egalitarian dominant social strata, specifically in terms of construction and manufactory. this spurred the equivalent of the pokemon world?s industrial revolution.

it wasn?t really fair of course, the children of gym leaders and former nobles, those who possessed land to hunt pokemon on. These people all tended to have better access to pokemon, and the money to buy apricorns. but there was no mass movement in the pokemon world equivalent to socialism. the majority of pokemon world?s people were still largely agrarian, the use of pokemon made the patterns of land enclosure and mass employment as laborers seen in our world unnecessary.

the world carried on much as before until about 60-70 years ago (i?m basing this timing on the fact that some older trainers, such as Draden, suggest that they tamed their original pokemon rather than catching them) when Silph Co invented the mechanical pokeball. they could be manufactured in massive numbers and, more importantly, it could be done very cheaply. suddenly everyone could have pokemon, lots of pokemon. not just a couple of Flaafy that you trained over your entire life, but dozens of the damn things, of every conceivable type, even ones previously considered dangerous like Arcanine and Dragonite.

suffice to say, this shook things up some. the leagues adapted quickly though, incorporating increased democratization and overhauling their structures to fit with the new paradigm. it may perhaps seem odd that the leagues acquiesced in most respects to popular political demand, but we have to bear in mind that these were compromise measures: any nation that didn?t adopt the mechanical pokeball was going to fall behind, as mass pokeball ownership exponentially increased industrial capacity, and it was better that than face a real uprising from one of the new dangerous criminal and terrorist organizations who were able to quickly gain power by stealing pokemon (previously virtually impossible). the founding of the International Police around this time shows how seriously the leagues took the threat from Teams.

the new economy has, since then, gradually become divorced from capitalism. power, food, technology and consumer goods are all easily produced with the assistance of pokemon. they have become so cheap to produce that they may as well be free. the only form of poverty exists among the sick and disabled, who can?t catch or train pokemon, and that?s why social safety nets like nationalized healthcare have been broadly adopted. they are paid for by heavy taxes on ?pokemon products? (potions, pokeballs, etc) which remain the only goods with any real cost outside of really specialized luxury goods. this is why in black 2 you don?t get paid money for starring in movies; you instead get rare items and pokemon products from your fans.

most money probably doesn?t even come from jobs, since you need very little of it to keep yourself comfortable. money is kept in circulation mostly through pokemon battles, since trainers are the only ones that really need it (this is what allows Veterans to make a living as trainers also). this isn?t to say that access to resources is equal, far from it! certain old families still have more at their disposal (and more potent pokemon breeding stock). thus rich boys and ladies.

efficiency is only increasing since the development of the pokedex. while most pokemon species were discovered already, the pokedex allows detailed demographic information to be collected, making it easier for people to catch the pokemon they really want. it?s also led to stronger understanding of type interactions, see: the discover of dark and steel types (fairy type is still in peer review). since the pokedex was invented the world has been hyper-modernized, and now teleporters, maglev trains and the like are a reality. this is not a coincidence.

your average citizen in pokemon world is schooled until age 10-12 or so, and then begins a pokemon journey. they bond with various pokemon, and those pokemon determine what career they will have, by social convention. some jobs don?t require pokemon, but these are probably less prestigious outside of management roles. most of them will challenge and beat at least a few gyms. the gym leaders maintain several rosters to provide an appropriate challenge depending on the number of badges their opponent already has. their own personal team will see next to no use in an official context.

not many people challenge the elite four, the top trainers that are part of the league, but doing so is considered very impressive. again, the elite four don?t use their best teams, they?re mostly battling children here. becoming a region ?champion? will qualify a person for a gym leader position or a role in something like the battle institute, with membership in the elite four or even as the sitting champion themselves being a remote possibility for the future. the actual champion champion, the one you challenge, is determined by the elite four fighting among themselves and appointing the winner. they then replace the empty slot from among the gyms.

yes, it?s possible to essentially join the government of a pokemon world nation by being really good at cockfighting. don?t forget, it?s widely believed (apparently sincerely) that a person who is a good trainer also necessarily has other positive attributes, so this isn?t that weird. and it seems plausible that the league trainers are supported by a larger bureaucracy that handles much of the day to day administration.

in conclusion: jesus christ i hate myself

 

[Dragonbums]

Personally I'd prefer a more story-based Pokemon game with a plot. It doesn't stop Zelfa from being successful with the kiddies, so it shouldn't stop Pokemon.

The problem with Pokemon for me isn't that it's not mature, it's that the games lack characterisation, plot, and the normal formula of collect-badges-defeat-elite4 is getting old for me.

Zelda does attract kids.
However they attracted a much older child demographic.

Pokemon in my opinion literally attracted children of the 5-8 range.
They have been in trouble multiple times for some of the stupidest bullshit I've ever heard.

Arceus for instance was supposed to be known as the "God" Pokemon, but religious people literally had a heart attack and they promptly changed it to Alpha Pokemon.
If Pokemon were to pull a Majora's Mask, I can't garuntee that most people would be fine with it.
Perhaps people like us would be alright with it, but their main sales demographic- kids with parents would be adverse to buying the game.
Which is why they hide the more darker themes of the game within dex entries, in-game books, and scenarios that require a more mature mind to actually piece together.

Oh, religious people LITERALLY had heart attacks? Then why are the nintendo execs still free men? Putting out a product that kills people is a criminal offense!

Figuratively speaking, of course.

Also, Pokemon is a lot of things, mature it ain't. I remember playing the original Blue and Red versions of the game, as a 9 year old child, and mentally inserting an imagined story where the Elite 4 were facist military autocrats and the Gym leaders were their brutal enforcers because there was NOTHING there in terms of story.

Seriously, if the "story" in these games is so bare and inoffensive that even an EIGHT year old (EIGHT YEARS OLD) is thinking of a more mature and involving story, then you aren't paying your writing staff NEARLY enough.

I don't think they want to put those up front in the story.
Also the people who think these things up aren't 8 years old.
They are people just like our age that would be interested in that kind of stuff.

 

[Lieju]

The first 2 pokemon movies kind of had it too. Mewtwo talks about the meaning of life and is essentially psychic jesus, and in pokemon 2000 James is just fully out of the closet. The rest are trash though.

I'd say the third one is the one with the most interesting and 'mature' themes.
It was about a little girl getting this godlike-power and creating herself a fantasy world where she had a family and all of her wishes came true.
But it's all fake. You can't escape your grief to fantasy, and she ends up hurting innocent people with it and eventually herself.

 

[Dragonbums]

The first 2 pokemon movies kind of had it too. Mewtwo talks about the meaning of life and is essentially psychic jesus, and in pokemon 2000 James is just fully out of the closet. The rest are trash though.

I'd say the third one is the one with the most interesting and 'mature' themes.
It was about a little girl getting this godlike-power and creating herself a fantasy world where she had a family and all of her wishes came true.
But it's all fake. You can't escape your grief to fantasy, and she ends up hurting innocent people with it and eventually herself.

At least in the end she got her father back, and it hinted that her mom returned to at the very end of the credits.

 

[SweetShark]

Actually, I have another question, but because as I said I am not a Pokemon fan, I am not 100% sure if this I ask is stupid or good question:

If I remember right there are some policewomen and nurses in the first games. I think they said they are all a big family.
Yeah........a big nice family of Clones? I had always this impression.
Does the cloning in Pokemon world is legal?

 

[Lieju]

The first 2 pokemon movies kind of had it too. Mewtwo talks about the meaning of life and is essentially psychic jesus, and in pokemon 2000 James is just fully out of the closet. The rest are trash though.

I'd say the third one is the one with the most interesting and 'mature' themes.
It was about a little girl getting this godlike-power and creating herself a fantasy world where she had a family and all of her wishes came true.
But it's all fake. You can't escape your grief to fantasy, and she ends up hurting innocent people with it and eventually herself.

At least in the end she got her father back, and it hinted that her mom returned to at the very end of the credits.

I never said it had a sad ending.
But it handles themes that are interesting, and compared to the first two movies it's a much more personal story.

I'm not sure if I'd call it 'mature', but children's shows can handle very difficult themes in ways that are fitting for the age. And if they are handled well, there's no reason adults couldn't enjoy them as well.

Actually, I have another question, but because as I said I am not a Pokemon fan, I am not 100% sure if this I ask is stupid or good question:

If I remember right there are some policewomen and nurses in the first games. I think they said they are all a big family.
Yeah........a big nice family of Clones? I had always this impression.
Does the cloning in Pokemon world is legal?

They aren't really supposed to be identical in the original games, it's just that the game reuses the sprites.
In the anime they are supposed to be a family, and there are slightly different nurses Joys and Officer Jennys.

But it's mentioned you can train to become a nurse, so I don't know how it works. I suppose in theory other people could get the job but in reality the pokemon-center bussiness is controlled by the mafia-like family?

 

[Dragonbums]

Spoiler

EDIT: When I say "mature" I'm not talking about making Pokemon a dark, gritty, grey palette mess. I'm talking about how within the games itself Gamefreak has left dialogue, scenarios, and events that hint at the more darker underpinnings of the Pokemon world that you won't discover if you just play through the game like any other regular kid.

This is one of those times where reading what the OP posted below the title is really imperative to understanding what this thread is about :/

One of the things I've been thinking lately is how Pokemon is often labeled as a children's game and how there is no mature content in it for the older fans.
There is no denying that the target demographic of the franchise are kids. However the more I dig deep into the characters, dialogues, pokedex entries and various NPCs the more I start to notice that Gamefreak has been putting mature themes into the franchise. It's just done in a way that the average kid won't notice (and subsequently oversensitive parents won't flip their shit about.) yet enough that one can piece together some rather dark plots.

Here are some speculations that most of the adult demographic of the fandom agree on or for the most part deem that it could make some sense.

-In the pokedex entries revolving in Pokemon Silver it states that Gengar feasts upon the life force of it's victims. However in order for it to do so without being caught it hides in the shadows of it's victims waiting for the perfect opportunity. The only way to tell if a Gengar is nearby is if the temperature suddenly drops.
Knowing this information you can go back to the Red/Blue/Green versions(and their remakes) and think about the scenario with the haunted mansion.
The place is abandoned. However there are still many things lying about. It's clear that the inhabitants never actually left, and the gym leader warns you about the dangers in there.
When you walk in you will often see the ghost girl leading you around until you eventually run into the Gengar hiding in the painting.
Many have concluded that the Gengar lurking in the painting played a great hand in killing the inhabitants one by one. It would follow their shadows and slowly but surely drain them of their life force until they died.
The ghost girl is assumed to be the Pokemon's final victim before the rest of the inhabitants left.
Also the fact that she intentionally leads you to the room where she supposedly dies means that either A) She believed you would have the power to rid the house of Gengar or B) Had the intention of seeing you get killed at the hands of Gengar.
Of course in the game itself that wouldn't happen. On the outside this is simply an opportunity to acquire a Pokemon that you could only get through training. However I noticed that the red eyes never show up until you turn your back to it. Sure you have your Pokemon to protect you, however what's the point if the Pokemon gets you before you can so much as activate the ball?
On top of that, Gengar are not only fast, but powerful, so it can quickly end you before you had the chance to retaliate.
In the real Pokemon world- not the game, this Pokemon would be a whole lot more dangerous to meet. Yet alone catch.
In fact- based on all the dex entries revolving around Pokemon, Ghost Pokemon as a whole would be the most dangerous to humans.

- In Pokemon Diamond/Pearl if you go to the library in Canalave City you will notice that you can read a bunch of book in the upper floors.
There was an interesting folklore revolving around Pokemon and Humans:

There once were Pokémon that
became very close to humans.
There once were humans and Pokémon
that ate together at the same table.
It was a time when there existed no
differences to distinguish the two.

Then you get to another story and it goes like this:

A young man, callow and foolish in
innocence, came to own a sword.
With it, he smote Pokémon, which gave
sustenance, with carefree abandon.
Those not taken as food, he
discarded, with no afterthought.
The following year, no Pokémon
appeared. Larders grew bare.
The young man, seeking the missing
Pokémon, journeyed afar.
Long did he search. And far and wide,
too, until one he did find.
Asked he, "Why do you hide?"
To which the Pokémon replied...
"If you bear your sword to bring
harm upon us, with claws and
fangs, we will exact a toll.
"From your kind we will take our
toll, for it must be done.
"Done it must be to guard ourselves
and for it, I apologize."
To the skies, the young man shouted
his dismay.
"In having found the sword, I have
lost so much.
"Gorged with power, I grew blind
to Pokémon being alive.
"I will never fall savage again.
This sword I denounce and forsake.
"I plead for forgiveness,
for I was but a fool."
So saying, the young man hurled the
sword to the ground, snapping it.
Seeing this, the Pokémon disappeared
to a place beyond seeing...

Not only does this confirm definitely that Humans do eat Pokemon as a food source, but it basically explains the reason why Pokemon attack you out of the grass for seemingly no reason at all.
Which is basically summed up by a kid who was so bloodthirsty and had so much disregard for life he went around killing slaughtering Pokemon for the fun of it until they no longer showed themselves to the naked eye.

Last thing I want to talk about because this post is getting so long is the whole mythology itself.
Yeah we know. There are a whole bunch of legionaries. Each one representing a myth or legend on a variety of cultures.
The question is however, do those legendaries only exist because the people in game believe them?
The most underrated of all the legendary Pokemon in the game are the Unknown. However, it is the most powerful legendary in terms of what it can do in game.
In the movie it is stated that the Unknown can basically take the dreams and wishes of anyone and make it become a reality.
In the case of the little girl she missed her father greatly who had disappeared so suddenly years ago. The one thing she remembered most about her father was that he would act like an Entei.
So the Unknown that were there at the time basically created an Entei for her because she wished it so.
Also consider the fact that the Unknown have basically been present in every Pokemon region except the Sinnoh region.
When you obtain Arceus in Diamond and Pearl and do the Palkia/Dialga, and Giratina event despite Cynthia saying that Arceus can create the other three legendaries, the players are surrounded by Unknown.
Which made many wonder- did that particular Arceus create Palkia, Dialga, and Giratina?
Or was it really the Unknown that did all the work?
Another thing is that are the only reasons why the other legendaries exist simply because the people of the regions believed them so much that the Unknown created those Pokemon to validate their own beliefs?
The only other Pokemon close to being able to do what the Unknown can is Jirachi, and even that was flawed at best.
Jirachi- based on the movie- while it was able to create a Groudon, one could tell it was never a true Groudon.
It was flawed. A slimey, corrupted imitation of the real thing that was easily destroyed if the Pokemon wished it.

Knowing that, which Legendary Pokemon are not just dreams become reality, and which ones actually used to exist at some point?
We all know Pokemon like Mewtwo definitely exist. He was man made.
Likewise Deoxys is real as well. Seeing as how nobody knew of it's existence nor did they ever have a belief to validate it so there would be no reason for the Unknown to create it.

Like I said, there is so much more I want to put in this post. However it is now a tad bit too long.

I also find a very interesting theory on the "industrial revolution" version of Pokemon on my dashboard.
However I think that should be a topic for a different thread.

None of that makes it mature, although something does not have to be mature for you to enjoy it. Unless it is MLP in which case you are creepy.

I never said I wasn't enjoying Pokemon as is.
You even copy/pasted my edit that I made to clarify what I'm talking about.
I am talking about the dark themes that surround the lore of the game.
I didn't even bring the main plot of Pokemon into this original point once.